anti seize argument

[IvoryJ30t]

ok, heres some background on the situation. i have a friend that works at a shop, thinks he knows more than me, and i enjoy proving him wrong. its like a hobby.

anyway, im a huge fan of copper anti-seize compound.

i did all four brakes on my girlfriends maxima GXE a few days ago. i put anti sieze on everything [torque member-hub bolts with 60 ft/lbs front, 35 ft/lbs rear, all caliper guide pin bolts at 20 ft/lbs. actual guide pins cleaned and relubed with synthetic caliper grease] i also coat the hub mounting face with copper anti seize, the rotor hat [the face, not sides] , and the lug nuts.

now, this guy is telling me that the wheels are gonna come loose, the calipers are gonna come loose, blah blah blah. ive been using this stuff for years, and have never had a problem. the rotors slide right off when the time comes, and i never have to fight with the lugs.

someone please verify this so i can point him here, and taunt him.

although i do have to admit i put too much on the rotor hats, but at worst it will get flung onto the inside of the wheels. big deal. i hate rust.
Modified by IvoryJ30t at 2:31 PM 10/11/2004

[IvoryJ30t]

is copper anti seize conductive enough to use on spark plugs? im out of graphite anti seize, and cant find more.

[navysnail]

yes, you can use copper anti-size on plugs, i use the permatex stuff when i do those, its like metalic silver

and no, antisieze isnt a wrench, its still under torque and that will hold it, its just like screwing the bolt into it with nothing, but now it wont get stuck. if your really concerned about it, just torque the lugs again after 500 miles to make sure

[180fan]

Dunno what to say, I use anti seize on rotors but not really anywhere else. I just kinda bolt it up. I've had a pin bolt come loose before though, so not too sure if the anti-seize there would be a good idea. But if it's torqued down right, don't see why it should come loose either.

[IvoryJ30t]

im not concerned about it, i was just trying to prove someone wrong.

i just realized before that the rear torque member bolts go in with 38 lb/ft torque, and i put them on with 50.

had to run outside a little while ago and correct that.

[IvoryJ30t]

the only place i use anti seize is brake/wheel bolts [the heat makes corrosion worse] and spark plugs.

i should have clearified, i used the anti seize on the torque member bolts, the guide pin bolts, the hub surface, rotor hat where it contacts the wheel, and the lugs.

the guide pins get synthetic caliper grease.

[navysnail]

yeah, pins get synthetic, it makes it much easier to work with when you have to take it apart again, someone used wheel bearing grease in some i had to work on once, it was a mess

[s13sr20chris]

i have done all of that many times even the rotor hats to dampen vibration. it has never been a problem for me.

[DAEDALUS]

Just a few thoughts here guys... Fastener selection and usage is part of my daily job. Anti-seize acts as a lubricant--the threads are easier to turn with the stuff than without it. Joints are analyzed and designed for a certain amount of pre-load. Once determined, a fastener is chosen based on the given preload and a range of other variables, including friction, factor of safety, reuse/fatigue, etc. By reducing friction, you're increasing the stress on the fastener for a given amount of torque, assuming the designers did not expect the joint to be lubed. Obviously this alone is not necessarily enough to cause a failure. Suspension bolts carry higher safety margins than most others. I'm just pointing out that a lubed bolt is a deviation from the as-designed condition, and will endure more stress than a non-lubed bolt, perhaps 50% or more increase.A buddy of mine was rebuilding his dirtbike a few months ago, and noticed some rust on the bolts in the triple-clamp. So he coated them with WD-40 before installation. Using a torque wrench set to the middle of the range, he tried to install them, and broke the first 2 in a row before he stopped to figure out what was going on.

[S13ChucKAT]

Anti-siege is the ownage.. I use it whenever i can.. it makes the bolts SO MUCH easier to come out (IE exhaust)

[IvoryJ30t]

ive been using anti seize for years without any problems, i just got annoyed when this kid started telling me that the bolts are gonna work themselves loose.

ive been working on cars for years, and i should know better than to listen to some kid who only works in a shop because his father owns it, and then tries to act like he knows what hes talking about.

i live in the northeast. winter=salt=fighting with bolts.

[navysnail]

good point! my thoughts were though, that while it would be easier for it to unscrew itself, it would have to innitially loosten first, and even if it didnt have any anti sieze on it, would still present a problem

[s13sr20chris]

Just a few thoughts here guys... Fastener selection and usage is part of my daily job. Anti-seize acts as a lubricant--the threads are easier to turn with the stuff than without it. Joints are analyzed and designed for a certain amount of pre-load. Once determined, a fastener is chosen based on the given preload and a range of other variables, including friction, factor of safety, reuse/fatigue, etc. By reducing friction, you're increasing the stress on the fastener for a given amount of torque, assuming the designers did not expect the joint to be lubed. Obviously this alone is not necessarily enough to cause a failure. Suspension bolts carry higher safety margins than most others. I'm just pointing out that a lubed bolt is a deviation from the as-designed condition, and will endure more stress than a non-lubed bolt, perhaps 50% or more increase.A buddy of mine was rebuilding his dirtbike a few months ago, and noticed some rust on the bolts in the triple-clamp. So he coated them with WD-40 before installation. Using a torque wrench set to the middle of the range, he tried to install them, and broke the first 2 in a row before he stopped to figure out what was going on.

sigh...you are right and yet i have ignored that so many times. nissan has that type of disclaimer in the fsm's and stuff. i guess if i break something for that reason it is my own fault.

[DAEDALUS]

Yeah in most FSMs on the standard torque page in GI they say "(Without lubricant)".As far as the bolts working themselves loose...The static torque required to loosen a bolt will be at least as much as the running torque used to set the bolt. So if you torque to 38 ft-lbs, it will require at least 38 ft-lbs to get the bolt turning again when you undo the joint. 38 ft-lbs on a 10mm bolt is probably over 5000 lbs of tension on the bolt, even more if it's lubed. In this case, I would say the bolt will never back out. True for hard joints, but again, the concern is with the high stresses on the fastener.So why do bolts sometimes rattle loose? Changes in the preload can cause this. In a way, bolts have a predisposition to unthread when torqued, because the threads "roll downhill" when undone. But the friction in the joint overrides this tendency and keeps the joint secure. However, a "soft joint" can compress enough to take the tension off the bolt. Rubber seals and gaskets shrink and harden over time, as does RTV. A valve cover bolt, for example, may rattle loose as the gasket ages, becaue the preload/friction in the bolt can drop to a point where vibrations overcome the friction. Very severe shocks and g-forces too can displace objects enough momentarily to drop preload. A spring-tension piece of metal, for example, can deflect when jolted, allowing its fastner to loosen up.

[IvoryJ30t]

i have a question. this is bothering the hell out of me.

i accidentally overtorqued the rear torque member bolts when i put the rotors back on.

they were lubed with the copper anti seize, and i torqued them to 50 ft lbs.

the next day, i saw in the service manual that the range was 28-38 ft/lbs!!!!

i promptly took the wheels off, removed the bolts, cleaned them, inspected for thread damage, and reinstalled them to 35 ft/lbs. they looked good, and turned very smoothly through a matching bolt. there was a 6 stamped on the bolt heads, so im assuming they are grade 6. now, this is the rear brakes. if it was the fronts, i would have already replaced the bolts. do you think that the bolt was stressed enough to warrant replacement?

at no time during the torque to 50 ft/lbs did i feel the bolt yeild. it just got tighter until the click.

[navysnail]

i think it would be fine, usually in my auto class, we just tighten that stuff down untill it feels about right, we couldnt afford to have the FSM's for all modern cars all years

[DAEDALUS]

I agree. If they're not stretched or necked they're probably just fine. If they were yielding chances are the wrench wouldn't have clicked at all.

[IvoryJ30t]

i forgot to thank you for taking the visions of the rear calipers shearing off out of my head.

i have OCD, and sometimes i get out of hand with bolts. ive been working on cars for years, but sometimes i get overly compulsive about torque specs. on a bad day, ill torque the oil drain plug. other times, im fine going by feel.