Another "What car next." Help me pick a Cadillac.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I have been casually thinking about what the LS8's successor should be. The LS8 won't be going anywhere, but I'm starting to get the itch for something else. I'm getting a pretty specific itch, actually. But, I'd love some feedback to help me decide a direction.

For a long time, I was pretty damn sure the LS8's replacement would be an STS-V. Big, stately, 460 ft-lb, boosted...it's basically perfect. Except...it's a fatass (4400lb!!!!!), it's automatic-only (so depressing), and rear seat space for the size is pathetic. They're also pretty hard to find, especially in a color that's not silver (which is the most boring color known to man).

Then, out of nowhere, I caught the CTS-V bug. Specifically, later (LS2-powered) first-gens. It counters all the STS-V's downsides while being smaller (honestly a tad too small for my taste--smaller than the LS8), not much less roomy, a little less conservative-looking, and a whole lot easier to find (especially in colors that aren't silver).

A HUGE factor here is the man-pedal. I'm so tired of Automatics. I think the only thing that has kept me from totally burning out from autos is the fact that the 5R55S does the best job of mimmicking a real manual of any automatic I've ever driven. But it's still not right. Still no clutch. Still sequential shift only. Still takes SO LONG to change gears. And it's not as engaging, even if it does provide an increased degree of control.

This purchase is probably still a long way off, but I like to spend a long time researching a car before buying (as I did with the LS8). So, I figured I'd start here.

Which would you choose?

To Summarize:

STS-V
Strengths:
Torque
Size
Looks
Rarity
Boosted DOHC V8!!!
Downsides:
Weight
Rarity
Automatic only


CTS-V
Strengths
SBC
Still lots of torque
Looks
Overall driving dynamics
Easy to find in good condition
THREE PEDALS.
That exhaust note.
It would be fun to have rivals parked next to each-other in the garage (LS, CTS)
Downsides:
Size
That's pretty much it.

And, just in case it helps:
LS8
Strengths:
Agility
The AJ35
Looks
That exhaust note (when you can actually hear it)
The manumatic (sort of)
It thinks it's a Ford so it's easy and cheap to fix.
Stealth mode (nobody knows what it is, and those who do know see a geezermobile)
Downsides:
Power
The Manumatic (it's not a manual)
Rear passenger space
The interior
Everything electrical
Everyone has one now. EVERYONE. They are EVERYWHERE.
People think it's a Mitsubishi (it scars my soul every time. every single time.)
It thinks it's a Ford so stupid stuff breaks all the time.

[Bubba1]

Well, the STS-V is essentially a luxury laden, heavy, new age muscle car for geriatrics. And I would have figured it's heft (Hellcat territory but with a less power) and lack of a manual would be an instant deal breaker for you. I have not driven one, so I can't offer any STS driving impressions.

If you're after a man-pedal, the CTS-V is a much better choice than the STS-V. It's also a luxury laden heavy new age muscle car, with big power. The more dramatic styling makes it seem a little less aimed at AARP members. Keep in mind it might be a tad smaller than the STS, but the car still weighs about 2 tons, which is only maybe 400 lbs less than a Hellcat which you condemn for being too heavy. The first generation CTS-V is probably the weakest generation in terms of quality and reliability, but they are affordable to acquire. I've driven one. I actually didn't mind it, but I wasn't overly amazed by it. 500+ hp does mask a lot of sins. The thrust can be very intoxicating as hills don't seem to exist when you drive one. But I found the quality a full step down from the Audi's/BMW's with whom GM tried to compete. I believe the 1st Gen V quality/reliability on par with your old Lincoln though with probably worse gas mileage (but better performance and handling). I believe the rule of thumb with CTS-V's is the newer the better, but they ain't cheap. If you go with a first gen, I'd recommend overpaying for a garage queen. Gotta watch for ones that have been driven hard. They could easily end up money pits.

As far as the LS, well, it is what it is. I know you love yours, but recognize it's a step down from the Caddy V's you're looking at. I'm not saying the LS is a bad car. And yes, I know it does handles fairly well... for what it is. (FWIW CTS-V handles better despite being heavier). But you can only get a manual with the LS6 (V6), and they built so few with manuals, it might be a real challenge finding a nice one. The LS is also an older design, less complicated, and less powerful than either Caddy. So if you go with a Caddy, you'll very likely complain that old Lincoln was so much cheaper to keep by comparison. That's simply what happens when you go to a fancier car. And if you're concerned about the increased cost of owning/operating/repairing a Caddy, then you should probably just keep using your beloved LS til the wheels fall off.

In conclusion, given the 3 choices and if forced to choose one, I'd go with a CTS-V. But that's me.

[PapaSmurf2k3]

CTS-V or ATS.
How often is your car fully loaded? Why do you care so much about back seat room?

[MinisterofDOOM]

Keep in mind it might be a tad smaller than the STS, but the car still weighs about 2 tons, which is only maybe 400 lbs less than a Hellcat which you condemn for being too heavy.

Absolutely. However, part of my weight pickiness comes from the fact that, as I look at most RWD sedan curb weights, I find that the LS8 is lighter than the competition. And the CTS-V is only about 100lb heavier than the LS8 at about 3850 lb (it wasn't until the 2nd gens that they hit the 4k mark, but the 2nd gen is a LOT more luxo and a bit bigger as it had to replace the STS as well.)
Also, my complaints about the Hellcats don't apply to luxury cars. My issue with the Hellcat it thinks it's something it isn't. The CTS-V never pretended it was a sports car. It knows it's a luxobarge. It also knows it's athletic. That's exactly what I'm looking for. And it does all that weighing 600lb less than the Hellcat.

I realize tastes vary, and my desire for an STS and my distaste for its heft predate the Hellcat debate by years. But I don't see them as comparable at all. One is a 4400lb pony car. One is a luxury car with power.

As far as the LS, well, it is what it is. I know you love yours, but recognize it's a step down from the Caddy V's you're looking at. I'm not saying the LS is a bad car. And yes, I know it does handles fairly well... for what it is. (FWIW CTS-V handles better despite being heavier). But you can only get a manual with the LS6 (V6), and they built so few with manuals, it might be a real challenge finding a nice one.

I listed the LS to lend a little more perspective on my tastes and what I'm looking for both more and less of with the next car. Definitely not looking for a second.

They built just over 2000 manuals. Only for two years, only V6. And the V6 was the Duratec30, so I would never ever ever consider it. It's like buying a 5 series with a 3800 V6 in it.

I actually both agree and disagree that the LS is a step down from the Caddy. I think iIt goes like this: CTS-V>LS8>CTS>LS6. The LS is a much better engineered chassis than the CTS. But the CTS has better packaging around the wheelbase where the LS is a bit larger. They both feel cheap as Hell inside, but at least the CTS doesn't look like a Taurus in there.

CTS-V or ATS.
How often is your car fully loaded? Why do you care so much about back seat room?

Now that I'm back living near my family, they usually want me to drive anytime we go anywhere together, but they hate the Lincoln's back seats, so I either get to drive the '04 Maxima (ugh) or not drive.
Also, I have been toting employees and clients around for work a lot more frequently, and they're generally not particularly fond of the Lincoln's rear seats, either--especially with my lanky a** in the driver seat fighting for space for my knees.

ATS is something I have seriously considered. Back when I was in Idaho, I checked a few out at the local all-the-GM-things dealer down the street from where I lived. The ATS feels a LOT roomier than the LS in the back despite the numbers not suggesting so. Problem then was: you could not find a RWD ATS in Idaho to save your life. Also, I'm not interested in spending that kind of money. I just hate car payments and cash in that amount is far beyond my capabilities.

Most imporantly, though, you can't get 3 pedals with the V6 in the ATS, and I'm less interested in a 4-cylinder Cadillac than I am in a lobotomy.

[Bubba1]

Another question, must your choice be 'Murican? The amount of choices for luxury/near luxury sedans with man pedals has been rapidly shrinking to the point you might have to look older to get everything you want. If you look older, there are some very good choices, like the 1995.5 Audi S4/S6 (with the fast bullet proof turbo 5), or pre-idrive BMW 5 series, back when they were less complex, more reliable and more driver involved cars. Or perhaps an Infiniti G, meaning the reliable ones built before Infiniti stupidly changed their model names to Q somethingsomething which is also about when Infiniti's overall reliability took a nose dive. You could even get them in AWD.

Regarding the ATS-V, as nice as they are, the reliability reputation for the early ones is not good. Like most 'Murican cars, best to wait a couple model years til they work out the gremlins. Another thought is if you're looking for comfort for several people + dead hookers and it's gotta be American, why not an old CrownVic/Grand Marquis? They're DIRT cheap, cavernous, comfortable, heavy (which I assume is okay since it's not marketed as a muscle car) and people will still pull over for you thinking you're a cop. If you find one with the police interceptor package, they'll wallow less..er...handle a bit better, plus the dual exhaust option makes the standard V8 sound better. The older ones had the 5.0 V8 which was literally bullet proof, and amusingly, it's probably as fast as what you're driving now. they'll also cost less to insure. Plus while you will not have the big power of a V, you'll still get close to 20mpg while hauling the entire Swedish bikini team, (with the JV squad in the trunk plus luggage). Plus it gets even better when you learn it can fit 3 across in the front, with an unobtrusive column shifter and tilt steering for better access for roadhea...er um.. you and your passengers' needs. . FWIW, I leased 3 of them back in the day. Great date car and road trip vehicle. they're obviously not sportys, but they're hard to beat as a people/stuff hauler. I'd also skip the Mafrauder...I mean Marauder, which was little more than a wildly overpriced black GranMarquis with the police interceptor package, blacked out chrome and 2 completely useless little gauges at the bottom of the console.

[frapjap]

-If you don't need to stay American, look into an '08-'09 Subaru Legacy Spec B.
- ~250 horse, I know you have reserves against 4 cylinders, but it has more torque than the GM inlines and a much smoother power delivery, too. No need to downshift for hills with the turbo models.
- big enough back seat for adults
- man pedal with 6 speed STI transmission
- Torsen differential in the rear
- competent handling
- big trunk
- good front seat
- Well optioned but absent of absurdly stupid tech. Close to analog in a digital age. Harmon Kardon stereo and speakers. Dual climate control.
- 3,500 lbs- lighter than anything else you're considering
- If you're not happy with the power, it can haul some a** with a tune and injectors and easily attain 300 horses and stay dead nuts reliable.
- Sleeper appearance. IMO, its a luxury DD. Blends in with traffic just like your LS and doesn't stick out like the wrx or sti. Its a "grown ups WRX."
- easy to find as a garage queen
- Maintenance isn't difficult, you can do most of it yourself with a few hours, plus cheap parts to make maintenance easier on the wallet.
- Also- I know you're well adapted & skilled to driving RWD and snow tires, but it'll be beastly in the Utah winter.

I suggest driving one before writing it off. The GT is a good car, too but I'd wager the Spec B is going to be a better buy based on the folks who could afford them when new.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Interesting suggestions. I'm not at all set on American. The Caddys just tend to be a lot more car for the money than anything European. At least, more of what I'm looking for for the money. I'd really, REALLY love an E39 M5, except those damn VANOS problems. I won't touch a Mercedes Benz product with a 30-foot pole. I've had more than enough experience with my family's C-class to ever go that route. It's too bad, because AMG products scratch a lot of the right itch; they're just engineered by insane people, and I'm happier without that.

I've considered both Crown Vics and particularly Marauders in the past. As a third car, I'd love one. But to replace the LS8 it's not the right direction. Too numb. I'd love a body-on-frame monster as a spare, though.

With Audis, I'd consider the S6 or RS6 if not for the cost of ownership post-warranty. Anything A4 is out due to size; those things are miniscule. And, actually, I've wanted an early S8 for a long time, but they're moneypits.

For the Subaru, I really quite like that generation of Legacy. And I LOVE wagons. A LOT. I'd be interested in checking out a 3.0R, or a Spec B. Flat-fours overcome SOME of my frustrations with four-bangers, but 250hp is just too far below my threshold. I'm looking for a torque upgrade over the LS8. I honestly love the sound of a subaru boxer with unequal-length headers.

The major negative with both the Subie and the Audis is AWD. I do not want AWD. I dislike it strongly. I know it has all sorts of benefits, and for certain things it's awesome--and I love the engineering behind it. It just doesn't suit my taste at all. I wish I could borrow one for a week or two and decide if I could learn to like it, but not knowing that for sure makes me leery of spending money on one and ending up stuck with it.

By the way, I know I'm picky. But you guys have already thrown out a couple cars I wouldn't have thought of, which is exactly why I wanted to post it here. I'd love a bit ol' list of awesome to narrow down through...even if I do just end up back at the CTS-V.

[numbnuts240]

chevy ss or pontiac g8

[Bubba1]

Or a Holden Monaro GTO. 400 hp RWD. nice sound. As far as Audi's, I'd also stay away from the RS6 or similar generation S6/S8. Very seductive cars but unnecessarily complex, and you're right, not a car you want to pay to repair out of warranty. But not all Audi's are like that. If you go just a few years older, but after the infamous 5000, they were brilliant cars. Most Audi afficiondo's will point to the 1991-1995.5 S4/S6 as THE best Audi sedan ever made. Built like tanks, nice looking, perform & handle great, very comfortable and very roomy. They were not small. An ideal 4 seasons luxury DD, that you could even drive on track and reel in sports cars. They are now beginning to appreciate so their days of being a well kept secret are ending.





from the side.



That's me loading one onto my flatbed that my late best friend had just purchased. He flipped it after owning it about a week at a huge profit. the one with the red hood was his track toy, many mods. Back around 1999, that car was putting out about 350 hp at the wheels, which was a lot in those days. the pic was of my friend at Tim O'Neil's Rally school, where we both instructed at a winter driving school. That was downright awesome in the snow.

He owned several of them, including 2 wagons which were also quite cool. His widow still has two of the sedans. I thought about buying one of them off her, but I thought his son should have them. I've been on countless roadtrips in those old Audis, never a problem, and many of those trips included track events and winter driving schools. Quattro is probably the best AWD system out there. And I think if you got off your arse and drove one in the snow, you'd lose the hate and be amazed.

Another car that might interest you is a VW Phaeton. Think Audi S8/A8 with a steel body instead of Aluminum (which is insanely expensive to repair). It's a beautiful car, and VW sold very few due to a ridiculous MSRP. If you can find one, they're not that expensive any more. If you're interested, stick with the V8, not the complex Bentley W12 motor. Comfortable, roomy, high on the coolness factor, and reliable enough for DD use.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Oh, man, the Phaeton is a great suggestion. Bentley designed, with a simple but elegant VW body (including one of my favorite C-pillars ever). Best of both worlds. Regular Car Reviews' take on the car is pretty much exactly spot on, for those looking for info on a neat but forgotten car.

I didn't think they'd be in my price range, but it looks like they depreciated even more rapidly than the LS. That might be a real option. I can already imagine endlessly explaining that it's not a Passat... I love that 4.2 V8, too.

GTO might be fun, but it's 2 doors short of what I'm really looking for. Could be worth a look, though. The styling
(especially on the 6 liter models) was pretty hard to swallow.

G8's have held their value surprisingly well, so they're probably out. Plus, GXPs (manual) seem tough to find. SS is too new and outside my price range, unfortunately.

[BusyBadger]

I've read through this a couple of times, am I a blind old man or did you list a budget anywhere?

[Bubba1]

Aw, you're not old.... He mentioned he liked a 1st gen a CTS-V, which I'm guessing translates to a what, $12K-$16K budget? My gut feeling is he won't pull the trigger unless something drastic happens to that Lincoln. Am I right?

[BusyBadger]

Well, you know what they say, "It's not the age, it's the miles."

Anyway, a budget like that precludes me from suggesting a newer V8 M3 then. Pity too, I know how Chris loves the V8. I'll echo what you said about the Audi line too. The shop I use for anything that I don't have tools for and can't/won't take on myself hate working on Audis more than any other make. One guy there refers to them as fifty miles of wiring surrounded by sheet metal.

[Jesda]

A friend of mine on Long Island has enjoyed his STS-V for the last few years though maintenance costs have been rising. The powertrain is fine but little things add up; it's a complex car with complex needs. The interior of the STS-V is a bit nicer than the standard STS but still isn't as nice as the competition. I'm a fan of the RWD Northstars. You get a deep, throaty intake and exhaust sound, lots of top-end power, and velvety refinement when cruising around.

CTS-V is a solid choice. First gen interiors looked crude but the materials were okay, especially the seats. Comfort is excellent and head room should be great for a tall person like yourself.
Second gen interiors were massively, dramatically improved but still not as nice as the 5-series. The second-gen center stack is also annoyingly wide, probably not an issue for long-legged people but a nuisance for me. The V2's Recaro seats are amazing.
Overall, the CTS-V is a heroic, well-rounded car.


The Phaeton is pointless. You get the look of a Passat, the nightmarish upkeep of a VW Group product, the prestige of a Jetta, and the weight of a school bus. I'd say they all deserved to be burned to the ground if they weren't destined to do that on their own.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Jesda, I KNEW you would know someone with an STS-V. That certainly makes me want one more, but the clutch pedal means the CTS-V is putting up a good fight. I agree on the RWD Northstar...sounds phenomenal, but backs it up in terms of power, too.

I also realized Supercharged XFs are starting to get on enough in age that they might fit my budget. So I think those are the top 3. Auto-only once again, though.

And yes, budget is ~$10k-$15k, so that rules out lots of exciting V8 options, but leaves quite a few when you consider that I'm happy to consider 10+-year-old cars.

[frapjap]

http://onslow.craigslist.org/cto/5282291375.html

[MinisterofDOOM]

I need that car very badly.