Another perplexing SR20DET not starting...already searched...day and night.

[aeugrx]

Hey guys, can't seem to figure this one last problem out...For cliff notes, please skip to conclusion at the bottom

S13 Redtop into S14 chassis.

Problem: Engine not turning over.Known: Getting fuel, getting air, compression (should) be fine, Coil pack on cylinder 1 sparking. Cause: Cylinder 2,3,4 not sparking..

1. Test if coil packs are receiving constant 12V = PASSEDResult: Ignition coil plugs all receiving +12V when keys are switched to ignition onConclusion: Ignition coil plug wires have good connection, ignition relay is working.

2. Test if coil packs are grounded = PASSED (less than 1 ohm of resistance)3. Test if ignitor chip is grounded = PASSED (less than 1 ohm of resistance)4. Test if ignitor chip plug pins connect to corersponding cylinder coil pack plugs = PASSED5. Test for connection between ECU and ignitor chip = PASSED6. Check Coil packs via FSM instructions = PASSED (all around 1 ohm)7. Check ignitor chip via FSM instructions = PASSED (I think...it says to check for continuity, and ther is continuity, but the resistance is quite high)

8. Connect Coil pack 1 with spark plug to plug 1 and touch to engine ground while cranking = Sparking9. Connect coil pack 2,3,4 with spark plug to plug 2,3,4 and touch to engine ground while cranking = NO sparking10. Connect coil pack 1,2,3,4 with spark plug to plug 1 and touch to engine ground while cranking = Sparking11. Connect coil pack 1,2,3,4 with spark plug 1,2,3,4 to plug 1 and touch to engine ground while cranking = Sparking

12: Probe signal going into ignitor chip: all showed some signal while cranking(changing too fast for multimeter to get definite reading)13. Probe signal going out of ignitor chip: All showed +12V constant WITHOUT cranking, dropped to around 5V when cranking. (Confused)14. Probe signal going out of coil plug 1,2,3,4: All showed some signal (0-.8V) but changes too fast for any definite reading)

Conclusion: Problem is NOT caused by:-Any connections/wires-Coil packs-Spark plugs

Problem MAY be caused by:-Faulty ignitor chip-Faulty ECU signal-Faulty coil plugs?

Honestly, I'm out of ideas guys. I don't know what voltages I should be getting in/out of the ignitor chip, or out of the coil plugs. So thats up in the air, if those were wrong, the ignitor chip or ecu could be the culprit, but I really don't know. The coil plug pins for ground and ignition +12V checkout just fine...I switched the different coil packs to plug 1, and they all spark, so it shouldn't be the coil packs....

Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated. I am HOPING this is the only thing holding me back from getting this engine started...

Am I overlooking something? Did I test something incorrectly?

Edit: Forgot to mention it is throwing code 11 and 21, camshaft position sensor and ignition signal....

Modified by aeugrx at 9:43 PM 4/18/2007

Edit: I've got videos too!Engine cranking, but not turning over....http://www.feintd.com/notturningover1.mpgCylinder 1 coil pack 1 sparkinghttp://www.feintd.com/nutturningover2.mpg

Modified by aeugrx at 9:44 PM 4/18/2007

Modified by aeugrx at 9:46 PM 4/18/2007
Modified by aeugrx at 9:52 PM 4/18/2007

[corey240]

did you check for codes? if you didnt, or dont know how to then do it..get turn the car to the on posiiton but not on, theres a hole in the ecu on the side with an led and screw, turn the screw clockwise as far as it will go for 3 seconds, turn it back. theres is 2 sets of blinks. 1 fast set, 1 slow set, so it will start slow thne do fast blinks as in

3 slow, then 5 fast =code 35

[aeugrx]

Oh, yes I forgot to mention that, the SR ECU is throwing code:

11: Camshaft position sensor21: Ignition signal

Thanks!

[aeugrx]

Just added videos, links in 1st post....

[S13FASTBACKSR]

we know the coilpacks are good because you switched them to the first cylinder..basically your last 3 cylinders arent getting spark..the code 11 and 21 are both timing codes so you should definately check into those it seems like its a timing problem..mess around with your CAS turn it to different spots and see if you get anything..that would be the easiest thing to do first..also did you mess with your timing chain at all?

[aeugrx]

Did not mess with timing chain, have been messing around with CAS for a little while...

Would incorrect timing cause it to not spark?

Also, when I pull the spark plugs out of the cylinders, only #1 ever has any residue on it, #2,3,4 are all super clean...

[S13FASTBACKSR]

ya timing would cause that..but you've messed with it so its possible it could be the cas itself..also what kind of residue are you speaking of? oil residue or a certain color? http://pdm-racing.com/features/plugs.html

[aeugrx]

I see, I checked the CAS via FSM instructions, and the voltages read perfectly.

The spark plugs are brand new, and the plug seems to be carbon fouled. It has a thin layer of soot.

So, should I keep messing with timing?

This is what I (and fellow 240 friends) have been doing, don't know if its entirely correct...Use ratchet to turn crank pulley to 2nd dot from the left, opening oil cap to see if cams are facing away from center of engine. I believe this sets TDC.Then turn CAS till the dot furthest away from alignment notch, matches with the alignment notch, and then stick the CAS back in.

Between cranks, one of my friends turns the CAS slightly and we try cranking again.

Is this near correct? Or are we doing something wrong. Thanks for your help!

[Tr0uble]

Not sure if this is relevant, but I helped a friend install his S13 into his car. The idiot wouldn't listen and ended up fraying his wires coilpack wires that run from the back of the motor on the firewall. While chasing wires I discovered that, also found that the company who converted his wiring harness had the wires pinned wrong. Fixed them both and worked fine. He similar symptoms as you. Cylinder 1 and 4 were sparking, but 2 and 3 weren't. Also had those same codes. After fixing those 2 things the codes went away and engine was fine afterwards.

His transmission on the other hand is probably shot, seeing as how I told him to check the fluid in it. Apparently he thought they ship them full . Dummy road around until he heard whinning and grinding coming from the gearbox I checked it for him and was completely dry.

[aeugrx]

Do you know which wires were pinned wrong? I can't think of anything that would cause that, but thats just me. The cylinder 1,2,3,4 wires which run to the ignitor chip didn't need to be modified, and I have also checked them for continuity. Pin 1,2,11,12 on the SR ecu (if memory serves me correctly).

Also, ignition power and coilpack power are getting constant +12V when the keys are switched to on position.

any ideas? Thanks!

[S13FASTBACKSR]

here check this out http://www.frsport.com/How_To_....html

[aeugrx]

Thanks! I'm picking up another SR ignitor chip today, and trying the timing again! Will post results.

[S13FASTBACKSR]

alright man ya let us know..good luck

[jr_ss]

Perhaps it's your ECU. I know there are a few guys in the Gainsville area with Sr's, see if you can meet up and swap ECU's to see if that's the problem.

[aeugrx]

I'm following the timing guide on heavy throttle.com . How long should it take to turn the crank until the timing chain and cam sprockets line up? I've been turning for awhile, and haven't gotten them to line up. It seems to me that my timing chain could be set incorrectly? But I did not mess with the chain at all since I've gotten the engine, unless it was messed with prior to me purchasing it (bought from JDM Addiction).

[aeugrx]

Replaced ignitor chip, and set timing best I could, still no spark on 2,3, and 4. Number 1 still sparks fine...

Any ideas guys? This is starting to be the biggest headache ever!

Also, if anyone in Gainesville wants to give me a hand, I will provide the beers/lunch! We've got a shop out here with a decent amount of tools/hardware.

[captainfalco]

Replaced ignitor chip, and set timing best I could, still no spark on 2,3, and 4. Number 1 still sparks fine...

Any ideas guys? This is starting to be the biggest headache ever!

Also, if anyone in Gainesville wants to give me a hand, I will provide the beers/lunch! We've got a shop out here with a decent amount of tools/hardware.

I'm also a little confused on this part, as I tried the same deal tonight. Anyways, free bump!

[S13FASTBACKSR]

damn I wish i was a little closer to gainseville..well lets see what we do know..if your coilpacks are proven good..and your ignitor too..then the only other thing that could be causing the problem would be the ecu or the timing..to make sure your timing chain is set correctly look at this webpage again and go to figure 10 http://www.frsport.com/Install....html as you can read it says 10 chain links from the intake cam gear dot and the exhaust cam gear dot..so its pretty easy to tell if your timing chain is on right..if it is then that cant be the problem either..and if you've moved your cas to various positions and still no change and its proven that your CAS is not bad then that cant be it..so then it would come down to the ecu i would think..so go ahead and check the timing chain links and if thats not it try another ecu and if its one of these two things i will come to gainseville and take you up on the beer offer (lol jk like i said im a bit too far..if i was a little closer or had more time on my hands i'd gladdy be there to help a fellow nico guy) good luck man let us know!

[Tr0uble]

I had this problem once in form of a question on an ASE L1 test. The question went something like, Engine has spark on all cylinders, but cylinder 3. Tech A says it's a bad CAS Crank Angel Sensor. Tech B says it's the ECM (ECU) Engine Control Module. Answer Was Tech B because there was an open circuit on Primary Circuit for Cylinder 3 coilpack. The ecu is the device that breaks the ground (breaking ground causes spark to release). If the ground is always open (Bad ECU) there will be no spark. If at least 1 cylinder is sparking then the CAS cant be bad. You have a wiring/circuit issue. Find the pin that sends the signal to cylinder one and pin it out to cylinder 2. If cylinder 2 sparks then its your ecu man.

[aeugrx]

Great idea! That will definitely check if its the ecu or not. I'd love to try it right now but its too late already, I've been at the shop for 15 hours as it is!

Can't wait to try it tomorrow! Thanks everyone for the help.

[aeugrx]

I rewired the wires going into the ignitor chip (coming out from ecu) from cylinder 1 to cylinder 2 and it sparked! Also, just to be sure, I rewired cylinder 1 to cylinder 3, and it sparked as well! Its got to be the ecu right? Either that or faulty wiring from ecu to ignitor chip on cylinder 2,3,4. But I did already check those with a multimeter.

Gonna try and locate another ecu! Hope it works......

[S13FASTBACKSR]

Find the pin that sends the signal to cylinder one and pin it out to cylinder 2. If cylinder 2 sparks then its your ecu man.

So wait if you arent getting spark to all of your cylinders you can do this as a test to determine if your ecu is bad? I dont get exactly how you perform it..aeugrx you performed this test by rewiring the ignitor to the ecu? could you please explain this to me thank you

[Tr0uble]

So wait if you arent getting spark to all of your cylinders you can do this as a test to determine if your ecu is bad? I dont get exactly how you perform it..aeugrx you performed this test by rewiring the ignitor to the ecu? could you please explain this to me thank you

Please read the whole thread.As stated plug #1 is sparking. Rest are not.- All Coilpacks spark when hooked to Cylinder #1 PlugSince we know that all coilpacks work, you basically locate the ECU wire that was breaking the ground (releasing the spark) for Cylinder #1 and hook up 2, 3, & 4. The end result you should see a spark on plug for corresponding wire you switched it with.All data points to the ECU as bad since he said all wiring is correct and undamaged.Reason why this can't be a bad Camshaft Position Sensor is simply because he had a spark on Cyl. #1, while 2 3 and 4 received no spark.

This is word for word from my ASE Advanced Engine Performance Specialist L1 Reference Booklet.CMP- A three-wire solid state (Hall-effect or optical type) sensor that generates a signal at top dead center of cylinder number 1's compression stroke. This signal allows the PCM (ECU) to determine fuel injector and ignition coil sequence. If no CMP signal is detected during cranking, the PCM will repeatedly fire the injectors and coils until the engine starts. Located on the front of Bank 1 valve cover, with an interrupter mounted on the Bank 1 exhaust camshaft timing gear to generate the signal.

Only 2 culprits that remain are wiring issues or Bad ECU.This test that I came up with will determine which one is at fault If a spark goes to number 2 3 and 4 after switching the wires this proves no wire issues leaving the ECU.

Can't get any simpler than that folks. ECU FTW!This problem was like sex for my brain.

[S13FASTBACKSR]

Ya I understand everything such as why it could only be the wiring or ECU the only thing I didnt quite get was how to exactly perform the test..now I see what you mean though so thanks ..good test

[aeugrx]

Picking up a black top ecu from orlando tomorrow!

[S13FASTBACKSR]

awesome let us know how the car runs when you get it in!!!

[aeugrx]

Went and picked up another ecu yesterday, threw it in today, and it fired right up! No drama or anything. I started putting together my side mount piping and MAF and such, then after a meeting I had to go to I started it again to listen to the idle.

It took us a few minutes, but we got the car to idle very well, and after about 5 seconds of great sounding idle, the engine just cut off. The battery was slightly low when we were starting it since I haven't charged it in awhile, but even so, I tried to start it again, and nothing. Just relays clicking and fuel pump engaging.

So I go to check the battery, its slightly over 12 volts, not great, but not bad. My radio and interior lights were all fine and bright, so I figured battery power was decent. So I go to check the starter signal, I unplugged the starter signal wire and probed it while turning the ignition, nothing but 0.1V was read. So in case some wiring was cut or fried, I probed it coming out of the ecu, still 0.1V! So what I drew from that was, the ecu is not sending the start signal. I reset the ecu, and tried again, nothing. I switched back to my old ecu (which had no prior problem with sending a start signal) and nothing!

What could have caused the engine to die while idling, and also cause the ecu to not send the start signal?

I'm at home now, but the only strategy I have for figuring this out so far is:1. Tapping the starter signal wire directly from a positive to the starter (to completely eliminate the chance of it being the starter)2. Checking the clutch switch to make sure the ecu doesn't think I don't have the clutch depressed.3. Go back to nicoclub and ask for advice.....

I'm quite tired from a 6 hour meeting but, I can't think of anything that is holding the ecu back. What are the prerequisites to sending the start signal? Clutch-in, ignition start from key turn....

Any help is greatly appreciated! I was ecstatic when the car started, and now it pulls this stunt...

[aeugrx]

Hey guys! Got almost everything working!

Only problems now are....1. Bad belts, quite squeaky and slipping, causing engine to be slightly jerky/violent.(Replacing tomorrow)2. Downpipe not fully secured, causing a leak of exhaust gases into engine bay. (Rusty bolts, holding me back from being able to tighten all the way)

3.(THE BAD ONE?) After idling on and off for about 10 minutes, the next time I started (to drive home in it) the temperature on the cluster shot up way high, past the Hot mark. I let it cool for about 5 minutes, started it up again and it was at middle, then after 2 minute of driving went all the way back up. I can't tell if the reading is correct or is it being thrown off by exhaust gases or is it really just overheating? Either way I chickened out and parked the car a few blocks away from the shop and just got a ride home for tonite.

Also, the water temp gauge I installed reads 180 deg. F. After it idled about 10 minutes. That seemed fine to me, but it was still confusing that the original thermostat was reading so high.

Any ideas guys? I really appreciate all the help I've gotten here, and I'm so close to finishing! Thanks!

[S13FASTBACKSR]

the reason your Temp gauge on your cluster is so high and the water temp gauge isnt is because you have to match your sr's temp gauge cluster sensor with the body style..you have a s13 sr in a s14..you must install a s14 sensor for that problem to go away..or just leave it and know everything is fine..by the way what was the problem? how did you fix it?

[Tr0uble]

the reason your Temp gauge on your cluster is so high and the water temp gauge isnt is because you have to match your sr's temp gauge cluster sensor with the body style..you have a s13 sr in a s14..you must install a s14 sensor for that problem to go away..or just leave it and know everything is fine..by the way what was the problem? how did you fix it?

Interesting so I'm going to need an S13 sensor when I put my S14SR into my car?