...and, the bleating begins.

Post by **AZhitman** » Mon May 09, 2011 12:37 pm

Read the article first:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/05 ... tml?hpt=C2

Let me understand something... it's perfectly ok to "mutilate" someone when they're alive, but not when they're dead?

Is ANY of this criticism coming from anyone who assents to practices such as the subjugation of women, stoning, or other human rights atrocities? If so, then my ears are closed (as should be the rest of the worlds').

I guess what it boils down to is this: If there is so much confusion and debate as to what is and isn't acceptable to followers of Islam, then WHICH version do we go along with?

(NOTE: I know this draws interesting parallels to the SAME questions that could be asked of Christians, but that's not the topic we're on. Last I checked, none of the Christians murdered in the Middle East were afforded a respectful burial either.)

Post by **AppleBonker** » Mon May 09, 2011 12:46 pm

Well, there has been one piece of information that is missing that would clear all of this up. I know he got shot in the head, but let's assume for a second that the troops took OBL to the carrier in order to attempt to save his life. It's not a huge stretch. Clearly, the personnel on-board would be far better equipped than the SEALs on the ground. Then, once unable to revive him they had to bury him within 24 hours per custom (if I'm understanding everything correctly). Wouldn't this idea (or story if you will) appease everyone?

For the record, I don't personally believe OBL, or even just his body, was mistreated after he died. Then again, I don't practice Islam so I can't really speak to that. However, drawing comparisons to how we deal with these things and how they are dealt with in the middle east is pointless. I'm not happy with how they may treat the bodies of the deceased, but that certainly doesn't mean we should do the same. It's simply unfortunate that people think this was meant to be a "mutilation" of his body. It would be nice if anyone would recognize that at least our intentions were good, even though one could argue that this man was one of the most evil beings alive at that point. We still at least TRIED to respect his beliefs/culture. That right there says a lot more about us as a nation than the middle east seems prepared to admit.

Post by **AZhitman** » Mon May 09, 2011 1:16 pm

Agreed 100%, and I like the "attempts to revive" angle.

Although, I'm not sure anyone's ever survived a 7.62mm round through the eye socket, but that's beside the point.

I just wish that those who are being critical of our actions would be lumped in with the people who partied in the streets after he was killed, and the people who reveled at the sight of the towers falling. They're all wackjobs.

Post by **AppleBonker** » Mon May 09, 2011 1:26 pm

Agreed with the wackos comment. But on the attempting to revive thing, that has never stopped us before. I'm pretty certain that if you or I were unfortunate enough to have that happen, we would receive the same care at a hospital. Trying to save someone in that case can't kill them more. They will either remain dead or you will be successful in saving them. There really isn't a down side to trying (I guess you could say time/money spent, but at that point I would argue that either of those are trivial by comparison).

Post by **AZhitman** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:40 pm

True. I'm actually a bit surprised they didn't float that as the "official" story. Good idea.

Here's the thing: We're damned if we do, damned if we don't on this one. There's always going to be those who find fault in what we (collectively, as a nation) do - and certainly, on occasion, it's for improvement and a desire to "be better". More often than not, though, it's driven by a hidden agenda - in this case, the old "hate America" is apparent.

At the risk of sounding like a flag-waving nationalist, I'm thankful for the author's sake that he IS an American, because other countries don't tolerate such insolence.

Post by **AppleBonker** » Mon May 09, 2011 2:54 pm

Well, they never said anything that would render my story untrue, did they? All I heard was that he was buried at sea per Muslim customs. And if sea burial is only appropriate if killed at sea AND to honor the 24-hour time limit, they would've had to declare him dead on land (for my take to be inaccurate). While I suppose that could've happened, it was never expressly stated, no? So if they put any effort into saving him at all, it would've had to happen on the carrier, thus the declaration of his death would've had to occur at sea. I agree that they were fairly ambiguous on this point, but these two stories are not mutually exclusive.

And as for your second comment, I think that holds true a lot of places. There are a number of people on this board that have the same issue with understanding both sides (not for this specific issue). I was with the girl's family this weekend and it made for some interesting conversation as her uncle is just as stubborn on certain topics: he is a staunch supporter of the Republican party. As some of you may have noticed, I love proving peoples views incorrect (even if I generally agree with them), so I had to throw a couple of jabs out there. No matter what evidence he was presented with, he could not be swayed on his views.

On that note, I should explain that it might appear I pick on conservatives and that is probably true. While I agree with a number of points conservatives make, it seems that they also make some of the more outlandish arguments that I find laughable and have to protest.

Post by **HashiriyaS14** » Mon May 09, 2011 7:37 pm

This is all beyond irrelevant.

NO country would have accepted the body for burial, at least not officially. There's no way they could have buried him.

They couldn't have gotten it anywhere in time regardless. We just had to step on toes with this one, no way around it, we weren't doing it to piss anyone off. Cie la vie.

Post by **AZhitman** » Mon May 09, 2011 8:01 pm

HashiriyaS14 wrote:We just had to step on toes with this one, no way around it.

...and sometimes, that's just what has to be done.

Other heads of state (ours included) have done it before. It's who we are. It's what we sometimes do.

...but if anyone overseas still wants to whine, I'd make them this offer (if I were POTUS): Start bringing me the heads of those who have executed innocent Americans abroad - Daniel Pearl, for example.

THEN I'll take your commitment to justice seriously.

Until then, I perceive it as feigned outrage, and you can hang it in your a$$.

Post by **IBCoupe** » Tue May 10, 2011 3:57 am

HashiriyaS14 wrote:This is all beyond irrelevant.

NO country would have accepted the body for burial, at least not officially. There's no way they could have buried him.

They couldn't have gotten it anywhere in time regardless. We just had to step on toes with this one, no way around it, we weren't doing it to piss anyone off. Cie la vie.

This. Muslims who are upset by this are looking to be upset. The Middle East will get over this.

Post by **HashiriyaS14** » Tue May 10, 2011 5:13 am

IBCoupe wrote:This. Muslims who are upset by this are looking to be upset. The Middle East will get over this.

Yeah, and if someone's looking to be upset, there isn't anything w're going to be able to do about it.

We took considerable pains and we did the only thing that would ever really work anyway.

Post by **AppleBonker** » Tue May 10, 2011 6:20 am

HashiriyaS14 wrote:This is all beyond irrelevant.

Valid point. Especially on this forum. It seems that here we are all fairly rational beings. That is definitely more than I can say about the people who are pissed about all of this.

Post by **Mooniac** » Wed May 11, 2011 7:52 am

Anything more would have hurt the Americans still living with this memory. We gave him what is considered a respectful burial for one of our own. Some have argued that was more than what we should have done.

Post by **AppleBonker** » Wed May 11, 2011 8:05 am

Mooniac wrote:Anything more would have hurt the Americans still living with this memory

I'm calling complete BS on this. If someone who had family/friends die in the 9/11 attacks thinks that anything could be done to make them feel better they are sadly mistaken. And, if they would feel more hurt by anything other than what already happened it seems that hurt/anger would be misplaced. No matter what happens, it wont bring back their loved ones.

Post by **AZhitman** » Wed May 11, 2011 12:48 pm

IBCoupe wrote:This. Muslims who are upset by this are looking to be upset. The Middle East will get over this.

Post by **heliochrome85** » Wed May 11, 2011 5:34 pm

AZhitman wrote:
IBCoupe wrote:This. Muslims who are upset by this are looking to be upset. The Middle East will get over this.

IM OFFENDED.

Post by **BusyBadger** » Wed May 11, 2011 9:59 pm

IBCoupe wrote:This. Muslims who are upset by this are looking to be upset. The Middle East will get over this.

AZhitman wrote:

heliochrome85 wrote:IM OFFENDED.

You'll get over it.

Post by **IBCoupe** » Thu May 12, 2011 4:44 am

Tariq! TOMORROW, TOMORROW, I'LL LOVE YA, TOMORROW

Post by **heliochrome85** » Thu May 12, 2011 5:24 pm

IBCoupe wrote:Tariq! TOMORROW, TOMORROW, I'LL LOVE YA, TOMORROW

saturday that is. who knows, i may actually wash the car for this shin dig. no promises on me not showing up in dirty bloody scrubs.

Post by **IBCoupe** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:20 pm

That'd be hot.

Post by **heliochrome85** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:34 pm

IBCoupe wrote:That'd be hot.

heres hoping that i can actually get my pass situation sorted out. otherwise i might not actually be able to class up the joint with mah kia...

Post by **IBCoupe** » Thu May 12, 2011 6:52 pm

I don't know if we'll ever recover.

Post by **Mooniac** » Thu May 12, 2011 10:13 pm

It could be argued that we shot him in the head an dumped him in the ocean...I guess...

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