Hello, everyone. Well I'm really confused, and nearly to the point of panic.
I just bought a '91 Q45, and so far I love it, and I have since joining NICO learned about the timing chain guide problem and have virtually parked the car since then until I can find out if my Q needs the work done.
Here's the conundrum: I live in Canada (Calgary) with a Canadian-spec Q. The local dealer only has its records back to 1997, but assures me there's no timing guide problem with Canadian cars and never has been. He referred me to their sister franchise (M-B), which originally shared Infiniti but split off in 97. But that dealer said it had the same computer as the Infiniti dealer, so I was wasting my time.
So I contacted Infiniti Canada by phone and they told me the same thing, and that I should drive the car with confidence. They said there was no record of a recall for my VIN other than audio amps and that with such a problem as the timing guides there would have been a recall. They also said Canadian spec Q's are different; something about the colder climate (which makes me wonder about Montana-spec Q's).
Yet you NICO members, who actually drive and love the cars and have no vested interest in selling me a new engine if the current one goes "bye bye" (!) tell me exactly the opposite. I tend to believe you, for exactly the reasons just outlined, yet the Canadian Infiniti people were very firm in their advice that there's no problem and I should just drive the car normally.
I guess the only way to find out would be to pay someone to open up the engine and look, but I'd rather not do that unless I have to, since I have other repairs I need to get done as well before I can start really enjoying the car. I will, of course, if I need to, but resources are finite.
Help! Please! Are there any Canucks here (or anyone else, of course) who can let me partake of their wisdom and point me once and for all in the right direction?
Thanks in advance!
Jim
Am I getting snowed by Infiniti?
Infinit canada is not lying to you,they are simply telling you what they know based on teh small number of early Q's on teh road there and the even smaller fraction that has gone to an Infinit dealer for trashed engine due to guides.
Even american delaers are getting an understanding of the problem only in the last couple of years.
There were members on this board (or more accuratelky teh old yahooinfinitownersclub which was the jumping board for teh infiniti section of NICO), who were told by dealer notto worry,had 2 techs listen to engine was told engine is "fine" not to worry and a a week later engine self-destructed.Dealer wanted 8500 USD to fix.
Now there are Q's that have gone quite far on original guides, others havent.
The only way to tell for sure is to open the front cover.Have a good independent do that for you.(and install infinitpartsusa.com's "guide kit" if needed).
Fred...
Even american delaers are getting an understanding of the problem only in the last couple of years.
There were members on this board (or more accuratelky teh old yahooinfinitownersclub which was the jumping board for teh infiniti section of NICO), who were told by dealer notto worry,had 2 techs listen to engine was told engine is "fine" not to worry and a a week later engine self-destructed.Dealer wanted 8500 USD to fix.
Now there are Q's that have gone quite far on original guides, others havent.
The only way to tell for sure is to open the front cover.Have a good independent do that for you.(and install infinitpartsusa.com's "guide kit" if needed).
Fred...
I could hardly say it better than "palmerwmd". A lot of Infiniti Head Service Reps can be ignorant(as in lack of knowledge). They can many times be Chevy drivers. I often have to explain why such problems occur to the dealer, or even why they fail. They are kinda like lets look at computer to see what is broke and fix it. If its the transmission...they cant even fix that! Not all Infiniti shops are this bad...but many are. The best knowledge is the forum and q45racing.yahoogroup.com, etc. I asked the dealer why my fuel inj kept failing. They said...well the pieces in there move all the time and really fast...so they might eventually fail. Sorry to keep rambling on. Use Amoco/BP 93 octane gas and fuel inj cleaner. They guides can fail know or later ya never know when.
I've just been down this road. I'm the original owner and had no clue about this issue until finding this baord and freshalloy.com. My dealer who I have been very satisfied with, had NO clue, I'm sure the rest of the board will be amused by the idea of the service advisor and the tech. leaning into the engine compartment and saying "nope, you're good to go, no noise, no problem." my second opinion at another dealer was... this is not a problem, don't worry about it. armed with support and facts from this board I finally found a service manager who had been working since 1989 who knew EXACTLY what I was talking about, I had it done last month and one guide was already broken but had not done any harm. This is real, your car has the problem, there is NO difference between a Canadian Q and an American one, you are doing the right thing by parking it until you fix it. One point that may have been missed here is that based on my research it will cost at least $700 to just open it and look, and don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. There is NO inexpensive way to look and give a definitive analysis. Others much more knowledgeable than me such as Dennis and Fred will chime in here but trust me just bite the bullet and get this done if you are keeping the car. Scottsdale Infiniti is the best source of parts for the right priceand they can tell you what you need and what you DON'T need which will be your next hurdle, your dealer will want to replace EVERYTHING and you don't need too. Do a search under chain guides here and you will find exactly what you need. Do the research, argue with the dealer, find a tech. or service advisor who gets it, ASK for a discount on the labor rate, I got one, I mean after all this should have been a recall.
Okay, "virtual friends," the time has come, and I thank all of you for your advice and tolerance.
I got a couple of quotes for the timing chain guides job and it's going to cost me in the range of $3500 Cdn (about $50US - just kidding!). I've booked it with one of the local Nissan dealers where a tech used to work on the Q. They were the best to deal with except for an independent who very kindly told me he'd rather not tackle it.
Anyway, the Nissan dealer wants me to send him a list of parts, which I scooped from this board (much appreciated!), which includes the chains themselves (might as well!). I assume these are the upgraded guides' part numbers.
So I was just wondering if there's anything else I should have them look into while they have the thing torn apart. Money's an issue, of course, but if it's cheaper to have things looked at now it undoubtedly makes more sense than to have them go back in again.
Oh, BTW, I may have found a hint as to the intermittent re-starting problem I'm having. The last couple of times it happened (I know, I shouldn't be driving it, but it's such a great car!) I jiggled the shift selector lever and it started right away. Does this ring a bell?
Thanks again!
Jim
I got a couple of quotes for the timing chain guides job and it's going to cost me in the range of $3500 Cdn (about $50US - just kidding!). I've booked it with one of the local Nissan dealers where a tech used to work on the Q. They were the best to deal with except for an independent who very kindly told me he'd rather not tackle it.
Anyway, the Nissan dealer wants me to send him a list of parts, which I scooped from this board (much appreciated!), which includes the chains themselves (might as well!). I assume these are the upgraded guides' part numbers.
So I was just wondering if there's anything else I should have them look into while they have the thing torn apart. Money's an issue, of course, but if it's cheaper to have things looked at now it undoubtedly makes more sense than to have them go back in again.
Oh, BTW, I may have found a hint as to the intermittent re-starting problem I'm having. The last couple of times it happened (I know, I shouldn't be driving it, but it's such a great car!) I jiggled the shift selector lever and it started right away. Does this ring a bell?
Thanks again!
Jim
Adding the chains will raise your parts cost as well as your labor cost.When changeing chains a re-time is needed to.A guide job that includes chains costs much more.
Negotiote for guides only and have them tie up the chains <tight> while they do guides.
Then "all" they have to do is remove teh front cover , tie chains, swap parts put chains back on tensioners etc.Put front cover back on (Cliff notes version)This is a lot less than putting on new chains, chains in these cars last <very> long and are simply not an issue (if guides are ok).
Fred...
Negotiote for guides only and have them tie up the chains <tight> while they do guides.
Then "all" they have to do is remove teh front cover , tie chains, swap parts put chains back on tensioners etc.Put front cover back on (Cliff notes version)This is a lot less than putting on new chains, chains in these cars last <very> long and are simply not an issue (if guides are ok).
Fred...
My research here indicated that chains could go to 300,000 without a problem, especially if they are tightened per the above post by Fred (palmerwmd) Comments and research on this site would also indicate that no one really knows or expects these cars to last past 300k. I think you will find as I did that the difference between doing chains vs. just guides will be about $1000. If the engine is not going to last past 300k and the chains WILL last to 300k it seemed to me to be a waste of money to do the chains, I did not do it, I just did the guides. This was at 128k, I'm at 130k now and happy, the extra 1k has been put into other much more needed and recommended (by this site) stuff, such as changing EVERY fluid in the car to the best synthetic stuff, flushing every system form the transmission to the ps to the cooling syst. to the brakes and cleaning and flushing injectors and throttle body etc. Much better spent for my extra $1000 I think.
120k? No to the chains, unless your valve covers are leaking, cause they have to come off to do the chains. NOT an easy thing. At some point in the future, when your covers do start to leak, you can decide if you want the chains done then. But they're probably fine as they are now. By the time they need to be replaced there's a fair chance that, for whatever reason, you'll no longer be driving the car. I agree with what's been said. Save the money for other things (like maintenance).
Actually I would not do that. I managed to confuse myself doing that. There are a bunch of posts if you search, you may get one of the wrong ones where guys had assumed what was needed and then Fred or Dennis corrected them later. What I did was call Joe at Scottsdale Infiniti and get the exact parts list, they have a kit, and get their discounted pricing, I believe it was a little under $500 including freight and they will know EXACTLY what you are talking about. It's your best price anywhere unless your dealer or mechanic wants to step up to the plate and match Scottsdales prices. At this point you will have the EXACT foolproof list of ONLY the parts you need and there are some that you DO need that you may not know of yet. This is the best way to make sure. If you are having the work done by a dealer, ask for a discount on the labor rate, and a G35 loaner, after all it's a big chunk of money and my opinion is infiniti should have issued a tsb on this, ask nice though, don't blame the dealer, it's not their fault. My dealer discounted the labor rate by $10 an hour. I would first contact the sevice manager and ask him if he is familiar with the problem, if he has a tech. who has done a lot of them, and if they will either let you bring Scottsdales parts in or match Scottsdale prices and if you can get a loaner and a little off the labor rate. I went through my original dealer who had been great up to this time since 91, but did not have a clue about needed to be done, then another dealer, same deal, third phone call got a service manager who had been there since 89 and a tech who was there the same length of time, no problems from there on.
But I like to add this caveat:
very few dealers will ahve any techs who have done morree than just a couple.Some dealers may have never done this job ( even tho in last 2 years its become much more common as word has reall been spreading thanks to NICO the old yahoosite and others.
I wouldnt be too pushy on the G loaner ( maybe I30/35 is just fine) as the loaner policy from infiniti to the dealers is much less generous lately and also, as this is a non standard job for dealers, I'd be counting my blessings ,if I got a good price.
Fred...
very few dealers will ahve any techs who have done morree than just a couple.Some dealers may have never done this job ( even tho in last 2 years its become much more common as word has reall been spreading thanks to NICO the old yahoosite and others.
I wouldnt be too pushy on the G loaner ( maybe I30/35 is just fine) as the loaner policy from infiniti to the dealers is much less generous lately and also, as this is a non standard job for dealers, I'd be counting my blessings ,if I got a good price.
Fred...
Thanks. It's actually a Nissan dealer, not Infiniti, who I'm getting to do the job. They were originally the Infiniti dealer before selling it a few years ago - but they have a tech who's familiar with the Q45 (though probably not with this procedure). I don't trust the local Infiniti dealer; they were reluctant to even give me a quote over the phone - sounded like they wanted me to pay for an hour's shop time for the quote (screw them!).
Apparently the Nissan dealer has to get the parts through Canada's distribution network (typical Canadian protectionist BS) so I'm not sure they'd even allow the Scottsdale parts (they'll hide behind warranty issues) and he wanted the parts list from me so he wouldn't order in extra stuff (awfully decent, if true).
I'd love to send him the parts list and compare his price with Scottsdale's $450 US (plus plus plus - and customs duty, undoubtedly).
BTW, Scottsdale's Web site says that price includes the chains.
Oh, the Nissan dealer already offered me a loaner - I didn't even have to ask!
Cheers!
Apparently the Nissan dealer has to get the parts through Canada's distribution network (typical Canadian protectionist BS) so I'm not sure they'd even allow the Scottsdale parts (they'll hide behind warranty issues) and he wanted the parts list from me so he wouldn't order in extra stuff (awfully decent, if true).
I'd love to send him the parts list and compare his price with Scottsdale's $450 US (plus plus plus - and customs duty, undoubtedly).
BTW, Scottsdale's Web site says that price includes the chains.
Oh, the Nissan dealer already offered me a loaner - I didn't even have to ask!
Cheers!
I'll bottom line it for you, I just pulled my invoice.Parts $537.68 I also did the oil pump stuff + the oil change is in there.Labor $1400 (17.5 hours at $80.00 an hour)BIG city dealer, Baltimore Washington area. You should be able to do at least that good. I did NOT try to squeeze the last dollar out, I wanted a great job done right, with no corners cut. Only loaners they use now are G35, I agree with Fred, take ANY loaner they give you, your car may be down for a week. One of the deals I worked with them was that I wasn't in a hurry, the senior experienced tech I needed worked on it when there were no fires to put out with rush jobs, yeah that broke my heart, I had a brand new G35 with 400 miles on it all that time! Gawd that's a great car! I would be happy to share my parts list with you if you've got a fax, don't have a scanner at the office, or call me if you want 410.712.0770 ask for Lee, tell the receptionist it's Q45 business.One more very important point, make sure you get a quote on what additional you will pay if they open it up and find pieces of the chain everywhere, that will mean they have to drop the pan and clean everything out, I think that is an additional 5 hours or so. Hopefully you will be like many of us, if it's broken, it will still be hanging there in two pieces. My tech. made the comment, "living on borrowed time"
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Q45tech
- Moderator
- Posts: 14296
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:19 am
- Car: 1990 Q45 342,400 miles 22 years ownership with original engine
1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Drive the car to Atlanta from Calgary [2200 miles?] and we'll do the guides for $1100 plus tax or $1700 US if an oil pan drop is required including parts................after all everyone wants to see the USA [just kidding Chevrolet]. Sorry no loaners but cheap rentals.
Really too far but I keep promising the guys we'll beat the current drive in record from Augusta, Maine. No Canadian jobs yet.
Currently we have 6 Q with blown motors on site from guide problems but they all have over 150,000 miles.......2 might get repaired?
Really too far but I keep promising the guys we'll beat the current drive in record from Augusta, Maine. No Canadian jobs yet.
Currently we have 6 Q with blown motors on site from guide problems but they all have over 150,000 miles.......2 might get repaired?
Gymbeau, I would agree that Q45techs offer is the best price and the best place to get it done, period. I wanted to take it there, for the peace of mind alone, but could not work out the logistics, I had become so scared of the issue that the car was parked, if I had a trailer and driver available I would have shipped it down there behind my suv. Q45tech, I think if you guys put together a pickup and delivery program for a significant fee that there would be a substantial number of people that would go for it. Look at the spread in what I paid and your pricing. I for one would have been happy to pay the difference in transport fees to you guys to have you do it. All it takes is a truck/trailer and driver. Anywhere from $1000 to $1500 these days can ship a car coast to coast. Maybe talk to the major haulers. Chrysler does this with Viper engines under warranty when they go bad, an outfit called Reliable picks the car up and takes it to a specific rebuilder called Arrow. And then redelivers it when done. If the car is out of warranty it costs the owner around $1000-1500. Just a thought, but I bet you guys got all the business you can handle now!
Gymbeau, when I had my chain guides replaced, I also had a new water pump installed since it added nothing to the cost of the job and seemed a prudent "pro-active" measure given the (relatively)inexpensive cost of the pump itself. My guides, at 135K, were in great shape but I wouldn't hesitate to have them changed again, knowing that. DD
The Guides have been Done!
Hi, friends! I hope you're all doing well.
Thanks again for all your advice and hand holding when it came to getting the true facts on the timing chain guides problem with the early Q's. This forum is a Godsend!
I finally got the car back yesterday (some of the parts were back ordered and had to come up to Canada from the US - I couldn't use Scottsdale because of Canadian whining about warranty etc. - and the parts price turned out to be quite comparable once duty, exchange and the like were taken into consideation).
And now I can finally drive my '91 Q confidently.
Before I had the work done I also contacted Infiniti Canada via its PR people (I'm media, so have a middling relationship with them) and they were also unaware of the problem (and unhelpful too, as it turns out).
I got the work done at a local Nissan dealer (the Infiniti dealer didn't even want to quote on it; I got the impression they wanted money for a quote - screw them!); they didn't really believe in the problem and in fact advised me it would be safe to drive the car until the parts came in. I parked it anyway, as per the advice given me by you here at NICO - and a good thing I did.
Got a call from them as they worked on the car. "You were right," the advisor told me, amazed. Turns out that one of the guides was in pieces, the chain was loose and the pieces of guide were getting chewed up by the chain. I saw the parts afterward and they were getting pretty chewed. No damage to the engine itself, they said, so I caught it in time thank goodness. As with other cases on this forum, there had been no indication that there might be a problem.
But it was sure nice having the service advisor tell me I had been right when he thought I was a crazy dude with more money than brains.
I've suggested he contact the other Q owners with whom he deals and tell them of the problem - offering myself as a testimonial for those who may not believe - but I don't think he's going to, unfortunately.
So thank God for the Internet and Fred and Q45tech and Lee and the rest of you fine people here at the NICO forums who shared their experiences. You saved my Q's life (and, since I'd just bought the car and my wife was a tad - shall we say unconvinced about the car's potential - my life as well)
I think I may write a column on how forums like this one on the Internet can save you thousands of dollars and give you more information than the dealer network. It may piss off Nissan/Infiniti a bit, but that's too bad. The truth must get out and who knows what problems other marques and models experience?
Anyway, thanks again for your advice and your help. It's much appreciated. I hope to pick your collective brains much more - hopefully without being too much of an annoyance!
CheersJim Bray
Thanks again for all your advice and hand holding when it came to getting the true facts on the timing chain guides problem with the early Q's. This forum is a Godsend!
I finally got the car back yesterday (some of the parts were back ordered and had to come up to Canada from the US - I couldn't use Scottsdale because of Canadian whining about warranty etc. - and the parts price turned out to be quite comparable once duty, exchange and the like were taken into consideation).
And now I can finally drive my '91 Q confidently.
Before I had the work done I also contacted Infiniti Canada via its PR people (I'm media, so have a middling relationship with them) and they were also unaware of the problem (and unhelpful too, as it turns out).
I got the work done at a local Nissan dealer (the Infiniti dealer didn't even want to quote on it; I got the impression they wanted money for a quote - screw them!); they didn't really believe in the problem and in fact advised me it would be safe to drive the car until the parts came in. I parked it anyway, as per the advice given me by you here at NICO - and a good thing I did.
Got a call from them as they worked on the car. "You were right," the advisor told me, amazed. Turns out that one of the guides was in pieces, the chain was loose and the pieces of guide were getting chewed up by the chain. I saw the parts afterward and they were getting pretty chewed. No damage to the engine itself, they said, so I caught it in time thank goodness. As with other cases on this forum, there had been no indication that there might be a problem.
But it was sure nice having the service advisor tell me I had been right when he thought I was a crazy dude with more money than brains.
I've suggested he contact the other Q owners with whom he deals and tell them of the problem - offering myself as a testimonial for those who may not believe - but I don't think he's going to, unfortunately.
So thank God for the Internet and Fred and Q45tech and Lee and the rest of you fine people here at the NICO forums who shared their experiences. You saved my Q's life (and, since I'd just bought the car and my wife was a tad - shall we say unconvinced about the car's potential - my life as well)
I think I may write a column on how forums like this one on the Internet can save you thousands of dollars and give you more information than the dealer network. It may piss off Nissan/Infiniti a bit, but that's too bad. The truth must get out and who knows what problems other marques and models experience?
Anyway, thanks again for your advice and your help. It's much appreciated. I hope to pick your collective brains much more - hopefully without being too much of an annoyance!
CheersJim Bray
JIM!!!!!
Congrats on a successful chain guide job. I was so pleased to see this thread today and how things worked out. I was actually getting ready to post an inquiry as to what had happened. Your car is now relatively invulnerable to most dangerous downfall of the early Q's. Just be sure to get your money's worth out of that job by being "pro-active" on other maintenance items such as: spark plugs, transmission flushes, synthetic oil every 3k, replacing hoses, O2 sensors, knock sensors, etc etc. Not say this all has to be done right now, actually, if i were you i would sit back and take the time to enjoy my 'saved' car. This is just one of the many examples of what an invaluable resource NICO is.
Thanks for this write-up Jim and please take pictures of your car and send them in for the Member's Rides section. I'd love to add yours in there. And if you want a quote for your article, "If it weren't for NICO and clubs like it, I would be driving a broken-down red minivan."
Nick
P.S. congratulations!
Congrats on a successful chain guide job. I was so pleased to see this thread today and how things worked out. I was actually getting ready to post an inquiry as to what had happened. Your car is now relatively invulnerable to most dangerous downfall of the early Q's. Just be sure to get your money's worth out of that job by being "pro-active" on other maintenance items such as: spark plugs, transmission flushes, synthetic oil every 3k, replacing hoses, O2 sensors, knock sensors, etc etc. Not say this all has to be done right now, actually, if i were you i would sit back and take the time to enjoy my 'saved' car. This is just one of the many examples of what an invaluable resource NICO is.
Thanks for this write-up Jim and please take pictures of your car and send them in for the Member's Rides section. I'd love to add yours in there. And if you want a quote for your article, "If it weren't for NICO and clubs like it, I would be driving a broken-down red minivan."
Nick
P.S. congratulations!
Jim:
Thats great news!Now as long as oil changes are kept up, the engine shouldnt have any mechnical problems for a long time.
If you write that article,l please mention NICO and our URL.Some of the most interesting articles are often written by journalists that are inspired by a personal experience rather than just doing an assingment for their editor.
Fred...:thumbup
Thats great news!Now as long as oil changes are kept up, the engine shouldnt have any mechnical problems for a long time.
If you write that article,l please mention NICO and our URL.Some of the most interesting articles are often written by journalists that are inspired by a personal experience rather than just doing an assingment for their editor.
Fred...:thumbup