Alignment settings/spec for 2006 M45 Sport

[BigHeadDennis]

Howdy, all.

Bought a 2006 M45 Sport earlier this month. I love the car, and the wife loves the car. I've got it all set up to my preferences... except the steering is a bit "dead", and doesn't "center" well.

The car has a new set of tires, and it corners flat and I can clip apexes in my sleep - it's just that going straight down the highway, the car tends to wander a bit, or follows the road's camber, or tramlines due to indentations in the pavement from heavy vehicles. I checked the service manual and came up with the official Infiniti factory alignment specs. The factory nominal specs for Front Camber should be -0.15 degrees, Caster should be 4.50 degrees Left / 4.58 degrees Right, and toe-in should be 0.05 degrees, while at the Rear, Camber should be -0.83 degrees and toe-in should be 0.12 degrees. When I had the new tires put on, the shop also did an alignment. The final alignment report shows -0.5 degree Front Camber (too negative by 0.35 degrees), and -1.1 degree Rear Camber (too negative by 0.27 degrees). These amounts are within the permitted range, but not the manufacturer's specified "nominal" amount. Now, 99.9% of the normal folks in the world would probably not care (and maybe not even know what all of this is), but since I spend a fair amount of time on the track, I know what too much negative camber will do to tire longevity, etc. What do you all think? Get it realigned to meet NOMINAL factory spec? Thanks, --Dennis

[M35 Sport]

Howdy, all.

Bought a 2006 M45 Sport earlier this month. I love the car, and the wife loves the car. I've got it all set up to my preferences... except the steering is a bit "dead", and doesn't "center" well.

The car has a new set of tires, and it corners flat and I can clip apexes in my sleep - it's just that going straight down the highway, the car tends to wander a bit, or follows the road's camber, or tramlines due to indentations in the pavement from heavy vehicles. I checked the service manual and came up with the official Infiniti factory alignment specs. The factory nominal specs for Front Camber should be -0.15 degrees, Caster should be 4.50 degrees Left / 4.58 degrees Right, and toe-in should be 0.05 degrees, while at the Rear, Camber should be -0.83 degrees and toe-in should be 0.12 degrees. When I had the new tires put on, the shop also did an alignment. The final alignment report shows -0.5 degree Front Camber (too negative by 0.35 degrees), and -1.1 degree Rear Camber (too negative by 0.27 degrees). These amounts are within the permitted range, but not the manufacturer's specified "nominal" amount. Now, 99.9% of the normal folks in the world would probably not care (and maybe not even know what all of this is), but since I spend a fair amount of time on the track, I know what too much negative camber will do to tire longevity, etc. What do you all think? Get it realigned to meet NOMINAL factory spec? Thanks, --Dennis

This thread may help a little. zer...eeded

I think there are simply alot of people who are simply not used to driving a car with steering like this. My mother's Caddilac CTS does the same thing. (follows the ruts in the road). It is my understand that this "steering feel" is part of the sporty nature of a true sports car/sedan. However I think some people have gotten rid of it with certain tires.

[BigHeadDennis]

"M35 Sport", thanks for the reply and the link. Good read.

Still, should add that I'm an instructor for the Porsche, BMW and Ferrari clubs, and have logged literally thousands of laps on various tracks in the Northeast. I mention this just so that folks won't think I don't know how a "sporty" car is supposed to handle.

With respect to the M45, I'm not expecting that it should handle like my Porsche or Ferraris, but was hoping that it'd feel as good as the BMWs I've owned previously.

More specifically, I guess I'm looking to see what other people's experiences have been with their alignment settings. When you've gotten your M35/M45 aligned, do you just trust the shop to align it according to whatever specs their Hunter machine reports? Or do you give them your Infiniti factory specs, and ask them to align to that as a target? Does anyone have a report from their last alignment, and can you post the results?

Thanks,

--Dennis

[M35 Sport]

I actually just got my car aligned Friday. I had a roaring noise. Now I initially thought it was bad tires. After dealing with it for about 3 weeks (replaced one tire and rotated and balanced the rest). I took it into the dealer and said "I think I have a bad wheel bearing" THey called me back and said the alignment was out (the Toe). This caused all my tires to cup and that is where the noise is coming from. They did the alignment and said the tires may improve. I still have the noise and the car feels the same. They showed me the paper that shows before and after. I didn't make a big deal about whether or not they hit the factory spec on the head. But that is just me. My car has 32K miles on it. I also didn't know you had so much experience with high end cars.

Modified by M35 Sport at 5:29 AM 4/14/2009

Modified by M35 Sport at 5:30 AM 4/14/2009
Modified by M35 Sport at 5:30 AM 4/14/2009

[BigHeadDennis]

I actually jot got my car aligned Friday. I had a roaring. Now I initially thought it was bad tires. After dealing with it for about 3 weeks (replaced one tire and rotated and balanced the rest). I took it into the dealer and said "I think I have a bad wheel bearing" THey called me bad and said the alignment was out (the Toe). This caused all my tires to cup and that is where the noise is coming from. They did the alignment and said the tires may improve. I still have the noise and the car feels the same. They showed me the paper that shows before and after. I didn't make a big deal about whether or not they hit the factory spec on the head. But that is just me. My car has 32K miles on it. I also didn't know you had so much experience with high end cars.

If your tires had some bad wear due to the incorrect toe setting, then I'd think you may hear the noise for some time, at least until the tires wear down some more, or until you replace the tires - though only three weeks on it shouldn't have caused all that much damage??

Did you keep the paper that shows the before and after? If so, can you share with us the Camber, TOE, and CASTER settings (for both front and rear)?

Thanks!

vty,

--Dennis

[M35 Sport]

Sure, I don't have the paper with me now. I am at work. I should say I just bought the car a month ago with 29.5K miles on it. It had the noise from the begining. The tires are Hankook Sport Ventus K104 The treads are about half gone. The previous owner must have let the car get out of alignment.

[ken in az]

Here are the specs for a 2006 M45 - they were in pdf form so I couldn't put them in any other format - sorry

[BigHeadDennis]

Thanks for posting! These are the specs that I referred to in my original post as the factory "nominal" specs, as well as the acceptable range.

Any of you specifically requested an alignment to these specs? Does anyone know if the Hunter or whatever alignment machine uses these specs?

My _actual_ alignment, as printed out on the final report, are not the "nominal" targets in the factory manual, hence my interest in finding out more from other owners' experiences.

Thanks,

--Dennis

[ken in az]

I haven't had an alignemnt done to my car but I can say that I had the tracking problem like you describe.

Notice I said "had" because it is gone with a tire rotation - lol

I drove the truck today so I can't go look on the car to see the brand of tire, but I want to say that the RE050A was the tire causing the problem and the tire that fixed it was the RE92A but I'm not a 100% sure and I'm going out of town so I won't be able to check till sunday.

From what I gather it is a tire issue as weird as that sounds. I've had the problem in other cars after a wheel and tire upgrade but I always attributed that to the offset and width change.

Now I think it is more of a sidewall or tire construction difference than anything.

[szh]

Note that the entire M Service Manual is available at our site (has all those alignment and other settings too). Link is in my sig.

Z

[BigHeadDennis]

Sure, I don't have the paper with me now. I am at work. I should say I just bought the car a month ago with 29.5K miles on it. It had the noise from the begining. The tires are Hankook Sport Ventus K104 The treads are about half gone. The previous owner must have let the car get out of alignment.

Any chance you could post your alignment results? Thanks!

vty,

--Dennis

[M35 Sport]

Any chance you could post your alignment results? Thanks!

vty,

--Dennis

Will try tonight after dinner.

[SteveTheTech]

Hey there Dennis, depending on what your goals are for your M45 I would suggest setting some front and rear toe (I like ~0.04 total toe) This keeps steer ahead spot on and under highway driving it tends to zero out and prevent the uneven wear if you do allot of highway driving. Rear camber is the only other adjustable angle in the suspension geometry and the nominal spec of -0.15 will not cause uneven year and seems to work pretty well unless your going to track it.

For more spirited driving I would lean towards Yokohama S drives, Dunlop Advans, or the PSIIs. Something asymmetrical so they can be cross rotated. Going with something with an aggressive tread design does not usually offer much benefit over a good set of upper end sport tires.

Reading some of the threads here you may be discouraged about the highway driveability but given your background you should really enjoy this car if you pay attention you won't have an issue.

I find it pretty interesting the diverse group of people who find themselves holding the keys to an 06+ M. I have met several high ranking Pentagon officials (both active and retired), 2 people that work in the White House and many many people who defect from road racing lines.

The M is a great car and I plan to wait to see if they getting a driveline upgrade in the next few years before pulling the trigger on one, plus add DCA, and IBA to the ICC is genius.

Welcome to Nico,

[M35 Sport]

[SteveTheTech]

Nice Pic. The most important thing in straight tracking is thrust angle (the one thing you cut off ). From my experience with some of the long term M owners is going slightly negative reduces any feather-edging that some Ms experience. This is a result of the OE design and a slight shift in total toe will have a very minimal effect on road feel and performance.

[M35 Sport]

Thrust angle is

Actual .03

Before.05

No Specified range.Hey Steve I have a question. How do you read this thing. The service manager tried to explain it to me but I am not sure I still get it. Is it that Actual is the correction made?Before is what is was before adjustment?And the Specified Range is what is allowed?

[SteveTheTech]

Having a slight amount of inaccuracy is common on many of the racks out there so I would not stress it too badly. If the car is tracking straight you should be ok.

Click the picture to learn more about 4 wheel alignments and the basic reasoning as to why they are so important.



I'm at work now...Mmmmm break time I will do some more searching on when I get home and the net nanny isn't restricting my internetting.

[BigHeadDennis]

M35, thanks for posting that info!

My report is as follows:

FRONTCamber: LF -0.5, RF -0.5Caster: LF 4.3, RF 4.5Toe: LF 0.04, RF 0.03Total Toe: 0.08Steer Ahead: 0.00

REARCamber: LR -1.1, RR -1.1Toe: LR 0.11, RR 0.15Total Toe: 0.26Thrust Angle: -0.02

Steve, thanks VERY MUCH for the info and feedback. What would you change to the above settings?

Thanks,

--Dennis

[SteveTheTech]

Dennis I'm always up to help a fellow New Englander. GO PATS!

FRONTCamber: LF -0.5, RF -0.5 -Looks perfect Caster: LF 4.3, RF 4.5 -Not too bad, but it is not adjustable Toe: LF 0.04, RF 0.03 -Decent, I usually go for 0.02 (0.04 total)so when it's loaded it should zero outTotal Toe: 0.08 -Meh, a little high but not awfulSteer Ahead: 0.00 -Nice

REARCamber: LR -1.1, RR -1.1 -Decent, This also balances out a little when the car is under load and full or fuel and or passengers. Toe: LR 0.11, RR 0.15 -Not quite even enough but it should fight understeerTotal Toe: 0.26 -Meh still within range although there is almost half a degree allowableThrust Angle: -0.02 -OK you always want the closest to zero possible, to ensure straight tracking.

Keep in mind these numbers are only good until the car is taken out on the street the numbers can change dramatically. I would not recommend going back to wherever you had it aligned if it's tracking straight. Given the quality of the roads in the Boston metro area I would advise getting an alignment every year or less.

[BigHeadDennis]

Dennis I'm always up to help a fellow New Englander. GO PATS!

FRONTCamber: LF -0.5, RF -0.5 -Looks perfect Caster: LF 4.3, RF 4.5 -Not too bad, but it is not adjustable Toe: LF 0.04, RF 0.03 -Decent, I usually go for 0.02 (0.04 total)so when it's loaded it should zero outTotal Toe: 0.08 -Meh, a little high but not awfulSteer Ahead: 0.00 -Nice

REARCamber: LR -1.1, RR -1.1 -Decent, This also balances out a little when the car is under load and full or fuel and or passengers. Toe: LR 0.11, RR 0.15 -Not quite even enough but it should fight understeerTotal Toe: 0.26 -Meh still within range although there is almost half a degree allowableThrust Angle: -0.02 -OK you always want the closest to zero possible, to ensure straight tracking.

Keep in mind these numbers are only good until the car is taken out on the street the numbers can change dramatically. I would not recommend going back to wherever you had it aligned if it's tracking straight. Given the quality of the roads in the Boston metro area I would advise getting an alignment every year or less.

Thanks, Steve! A couple of follow up questions:

1. With respect to the negative rear camber of -1.1 (both sides), you wrote "Decent, This also balances out a little when the car is under load and full or fuel and or passengers. " Wouldn't the added weight of passengers/luggage cause even more negative camber? I'm thinking that this much negative rear camber will, in addition to causing faster tire wear, make the rear end a little more nervous/susceptible to tramlining. What do you think? I run fairly aggressive neg rear camber on my sports/race cars, but haven't tried it with a sedan (yes, it's a Sport, and yes, I like going fast on freeway entrance ramps, but it's still a sedan. )

2. When I bought the car (used), the dealer not only put new tires on, but also changed the left outer tie rod assembly, that they had determined had excessive wear (only 31k miles). When they did it, they neglected to properly center the steering wheel. I brought it back, and they did TWO alignments (over the course of 2 hours), to center the wheel. At the end, they said that it was "as good as we could get it", and gave me the final report with the specs stated as above. Now, it shouldn't be rocket science to center the steering wheel, right? It's still a very small yet utter perceptible amount off-center. And like the dripping faucet or mosquito in your bedroom, it's enough to drive me NUTS. Any suggestions, other than taking it in for another alignment?

thx,

--Dennis

[SteveTheTech]

My reasoning for saying "Decent" was primarily because -1.1 is within range it's at the higher end of the acceptable range. There is little need to have a degree of negative camber, although camber related wear is pretty uncommon with rotated tires. I can see having -0.5 but that is not usually attainable as one side may almost always will not adjust lower than -1.0, (IDK why, it's just what they do) so having the cross camber balance is always a win. Short answer for the second part.

No, the amount of play in the steering system (none) is very susceptible to alteration and anything you do without an alignment rack and latest equipment could make things much worse.

[BigHeadDennis]

Thanks again, Steve.

I'm confused by what the service manager told me - when they were centering the steering wheel, they had to align it on the rack TWICE - because each time they got the steering wheel closer to straight, they needed to re-run the alignment.

So do I have them do another alignment on the rack, just to get the steering wheel perfectly straight?

Thx,

--Dennis

[SteveTheTech]

I don't know what they mean by the above statement.

As for having them do another alignment. I don't see why there would be an issue, is their no quality control? or does it only happen on certain roads?

[BigHeadDennis]

Well, their last alignment produced the final settings I posted above. And the car is wonderful overall, and corners flat and no complaints there - just that the steering wheel is still slightly off center, and more importantly, it seems to tramline noticeably any time the road isn't mirror-smooth. We'll see if they want to do a 3rd try...

[SteveTheTech]

What kind of tires are you running?

Short of running a softer sidewall tire there is not much that cannot be done about this trambling. Any modification to the suspension would have considerable effects on all aspects on its road presence.

If your tires at >50% I would start doing some research and when you do end up getting another alignment done, ask to meet the tech that will be doing it and try to let him know what you are looking for from his work. Setting the total toe to <0.05 will prevent the tires from featheredging.