Airplanes or cars: Too much automation?

[Gold Digger]

So, I was reading an article on Yahoo news yesterday, Automation in the air dulls pilot skill and it got me thinking about how this can also go for automobiles.

Pilots' "automation addiction" has eroded their flying skills to the point that they sometimes don't know how to recover from stalls and other mid-flight problems, say pilots and safety officials. The weakened skills have contributed to hundreds of deaths in airline crashes in the last five years.

Change a few words in there and it can just as easily be said for drives and cars.

There is so much new technology in cars today that people have become numb to the driving experience. They pretty much get in and know that even if they screw up, the car will either fix the problem or protect them in a crash.

I for one don't need all that new stuff. Traction control? That's my right foot. ABS...again, right foot.

Traction control and iStop were to options I refused to let my wife get on our new car. I told her that she shouldn't rely on electronics to drive for her and that she should start being more attentive to driving.


Anyway, the floor is open. Discuss.

[sbird1]

I can't see how this could be much of a problem in airplanes. Those pilots have to go through ridiculous amounts of training and flight time. They are probably the best you can be at a job. They don't just let anyone fly a plane... especially commercially.

As for cars, there are a lot of "driver assists" in today's cars as mandated by the NHTSA. In most cars, you can turn off those "features", even in my friend's brand new Chevy Cruz (which I can't imagine ever loosing traction in). I don't think it dulls the driver experience or skills. It all depends on what you do with a car, and by that I mean that if you regularly drive aggressively, you are more likely to learn to control a car than someone who always drives like my grandma. At this point, I don't think assists are diminishing the skill of drivers, it just keeps bad drivers from making things worse.

[TurboSauce]

I whole Heatedly agree,
While it can be beneficial to prevent idiots damaging other's property, It also prevents Natural selection to take effect.
I mean to me there's no (beneficial to me)point in letting your car drive you, Say in the future cars are like air crafts, except unmanned, but they're patrolled by Road traffic control towers, to "prevent accidents" tell me who is to say that this network will not become infected by a hacker?
And what if you loose the system, alot of things can come to a halt and negatively impact everyone. It should never come to that or else the future is a nightmare I quite frankly never wish to dream about.

[dre1507]

What happens in a situation where the "assist" that's supposed to be taking care of the situation fails? I'm with you on this one Neil. A bad driver should definitely be trying to get better without the use of assists. I would say to make assists for elderly drivers mandatory, but i'm a firm believer of "If your heart, eyes, and overall reflexes can't handle driving upwards of 40mph, you shouldn't bother sitting in the driver's seat." Now, for drivers with disabilities, I see no problem with driver assists, but even so, I still don't believe in relying on them too much.

[TurboSauce]

At this point, I don't think assists are diminishing the skill of drivers, it just keeps bad drivers from making things worse.

Give 75% of the american population a manual transmission car with no abs, more than two hundred and fifty horsepower, with no traction control and see what happens.
edit, in wet conditions.

[Gold Digger]

My GT-R has ABS, but no traction control, VCD control or any other gizmo. Granted, my car is AWD when it's needed, but RWD most of the time. Plus, it's a manual.

My car's limits are probably more than my own personal limits, but I'd rather not find out.


But, yes, what's to say your electronics fail? Like the iStop. You're at a light, your iStop kicks in and shuts down the car. You sit for a few minutes and the light goes green. Lift off the brake pedal and nothing. What the hell do you do then?

Most likely, turn the ignition off, then restart the car. But how many normal people would have the common sense to figure that out? I'd say a very small percentage.

[Jesda]

With Stabilitrak (or Nissan's version, VDC), I can drive in the snow like a careless idiot without sliding or losing control. If not for the sound and vibration of the ABS, I wouldn't know I was in a low-traction situation.

It's reassuring and unnerving all at the same time.

[Bubba1]

It's a shame that technology is been compensating for a lack of proper driver training. This is not aimed any individual, but our American society.

[hannibal]

At this point, I don't think assists are diminishing the skill of drivers, it just keeps bad drivers from making things worse.

Give 75% of the american population a manual transmission car with no abs, more than two hundred and fifty horsepower, with no traction control and see what happens.
edit, in wet conditions.

My mom is in her 60's and she'd have no problem with this. Hell, if my grandmother's sight wasn't so bad, she could drive this car too.

I don't think most driver's are incapable. Most just don't care.

I saw a lady driving a Solstice on the highway with her phone to her ear. Its was starting to rain, and she's going maybe 10mph faster than traffic, changing lanes to make a pass at every opportunity. When she gets about 5 cars ahead, someone brakes as she's changing lanes, she brakes and yanks the wheel. She skids to a stop facing traffic and as I make my way past her a few moments later, I see she still has the phone to her ear. Where's the survival instinct that says drop the phone and try not to hit something? Traction control, ABS, and lane departure warnings won't fix stupid.

[Dittoz7]

Agreed, any car I get in I drive like it was my own. In the sense I don't have ABS, let alone traction control or VDC. So I never assume the car I'm driving does.

Two days go I was on my to the movies with one of my lady friends. I usually drive what ever car we are both in; but that day just she grabbed the keys (to her mom's car) and decided to be the driver. I had been raining on and off the whole day, so the street pretty wet. We were talking when all of a sudden of out of the corner of my eye I see the light turn yellow. I see we are going around 40ish in a 30 zone. I knew there was no way make it or stop in time. I know this traffic light doesn't have those stupid red light cameras. I see her foot move toward the brake. I told her calmly to just keep going thru it. To late (not) surprisingly she stomped on the brakes (no ABS) and slid thru the whole intersection and then some.(Thankfully it was a straight road and there wasn't any car in front of us or behind us or I would of reacted differently.) Still sliding already pass the intersection I calmly tell her to get off the brakes and just steer. This time she actually listens and takes my advice. Gets the car back "under control" and just slows down to like 5mph,trying to get over the shock. I tell her speed up before some one else pulls the same stunt and plows into us. That broke her trance like state quick, she turns into the first right which turns out to be a CVS, gets out and hands me the keys.

Later I asked her I she knew her moms car didn't have ABS, she just "ABS?" with a dumbfounded look on her face. I told her forget about it. I did explain the whole thing to her later. But it's just scary thought it could of happened to someone behind me someday.

/coolstorybro

[bcar240]

I have been thinking this way for years. I have no desire for traction control or stability gadgets in any vehicle I drive. My primary complaint with them is that since I have always driven a "basic" car when I do something, I expect the car to react a certain way. I do not want traction control or some other electronic gizmo stepping in and doing something that changes the way the car acts. When I expect one thing and get another, it causes problems. I mean, if it is raining outside or something and I give a huge throttle input, I EXPECT wheel spin, I find it surprising if I DON'T get any. Just about the last thing any vehicle operator (of any type) wants is to be surprised.

Though, I'm starting to be a little more accepting of ABS (the newer, better ones anyway), at least for normal conditions and not ice/snow/mud. If I have time to plan the stop I do fairly well. But you know what, in just about every unexpected, split-second panic stop I've had to make I find that I pretty much just reflexively bury the pedal. Of course if there is time, I release and brake again properly. But sometimes it's what happens in those first few seconds that makes the difference.

As for the pilots, you would be surprised how much people don't retain over time when out of practice. Like many things, it is a perishable skill, and they don't get a lot of exposure to many aspects of flying that are now nearly 100% automated. Another thing, like a lazy student, pilots are prone to subconsciously memorize certain "routines" that are required of them for any evaluations or skills checks, but throw in a real world scenario that is different from the training just slightly and requires going way back to fundamentals and we are seeing some of the pilots responding incorrectly. This is also comparable to drivers. Like when I was studying for the driving test, I could parallel park in my sleep to the right and passed the test fine. Then a couple weeks later I was on a one way street and had to parallel park on the left, now that must have been fun to watch.

[breadbox]

Ever since TDC in my friends golf, I have hated automation of vehicle controls. Which is also probably why I won't buy a new car unless they take away all the old ones.

Things I don't like about newer cars....Auto parking feature(if you cant park a car, maybe you shouldn't drive one), super high window lines/tall a** doors, ABS when its wet outside(that brake chatter thing is scary and seems retarded), auto-sync bluetooth even when the car isn't running, and I am sure there is more.

[Gold Digger]

Like when I was studying for the driving test, I could parallel park in my sleep to the right and passed the test fine. Then a couple weeks later I was on a one way street and had to parallel park on the left, now that must have been fun to watch.

I love parallel parking. I was one of the best in my driving class in high school. Unfortunately, I don't get much practice at it here in Japan. But, on the off chance that I do, I can still do it. Otherwise, I have to wait till I am back in the states, and it takes me a few tries after having to readjust to being back on the left side of the car and the right side of the street.

Another thing I dislike...back up cameras on cars. Turn around and use your own eyes to see where you are going. No one here does it. They rely solely on their mirrors or cameras, which I just can't trust. I have to see with my own eyes where I am backing my car into.

I have almost been hit several times by people backing up and only using their side mirrors (ever hear of blind spots, a**?) and it just aggravates me for some reason.