Air filter study

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AZhitman
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Q45tech wrote:This arguement will go on forever as long a oiles/cone filter manufacturers spend money to advertise mistruths and support teams.

People just want to believe that they can out do the factory with simple cheap mods. Why no graduate automotive engineers ever set foot on forums.........they would throw up after reading peoples posts then run away screaming.

Same with tire/wheel forums where experts [testimony] are dished and ignored because their recommendations cost more money.
Best Dennis post EVER.

Amazing how people will spend $50 on a K&N to gain 2 hp, but then buy aftermarket cast wheels, add 12 lbs of rotating mass per wheel and lose an effective 15 hp.

(And then claim their car is fast... )


maxnix
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AZhitman wrote:(And then claim their car is fast... )
Hey, it sounds keewell so it must be faster!

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heywier427
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ok this is a great discussion, there is no doubt the K N sounds awsome. do you think you could incorperate a paper filter after the KN. keep the sound and the quality.

Q45denver
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Just punch a hole in your muffler. KN filter for sale $20+$5 USPS priority mail. Used very little and freshly cleaned and recharged.

zerothread?id=160251

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elwesso
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heywier427 wrote:ok this is a great discussion, there is no doubt the K N sounds awsome. do you think you could incorperate a paper filter after the KN. keep the sound and the quality.
Take the bottom of the airbox out and just bunjee cord or somehow the airfilter to the top of the airbox.

chinaonnitrous
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use hole saw to carve out bottom of airbox..... =0

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mcrews
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Speaking of air....took this pic of the laoner G35 4dr I had today.The reqular skinny slot is over the radiator but this FACTORY HOLE is right in front of the filter in the box. funny thing is the rubber trim is set up so the air come in from the grill, which is below and not from the gap where the hood shuts which is directly in front. my initial thought is if your doing 120+ and some poor stupid hard body bug is slammed thru the gap...he'd go right thru the airfilter!!!!the cut out piece seems to be "revited" with rubber snap revits....any of you tech guys know if it has a part #?SO the 39.95 question is would it or does it make the car go faster!!!!!?????Or does the decal work better???

I am sure it gets dirtier faster

blttzen
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1. Steady state standardized tests are rarely useful in the real world.

2. His results are common sense. Less restriction = more gets through. The only way to counter that is to have the same restriction per square inch, but more surface area, which is actually what paper filters can do very well. The gauze filters rarely have as many vanes as paper filters.

3. Because of the method of calculating the quantity of dust that gets through, it doesn't tell you how much of what size is getting through.

4. "better airflow = more power" Contrary to what he says, it does. Maybe not in a big, low RPM diesel with a filter the size of some small states, but in small, higher RPM turbo engines I think the difference is probably greater.

blttzen
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K&N has been around for 30 years. If the product was that bad it would have been drummed off the market long ago. Everybody has a point to prove, and you can usually devise a test to prove YOUR point, or highlight YOUR product even if generally not valid. Or you can just make it sound real official and make data up. In case you haven't noticed, this happens ALL the time in the aftermarket accessory Biz. There are Dozens of K&N vs. "Our" filter "studies". Diesels aspirate completely differently than Gas engines anyway.......Whatever. This comes up on every car forum about every 2 months and there are rabid pros as well as cons.I seriously doubt you could actually measure a wear difference in an engine over 100K of use with a properly functioning Paper filter Vs a properly sized and oiled K&N.

maxnix
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blttzen wrote:1. Steady state standardized tests are rarely useful in the real world.

2. His results are common sense. Less restriction = more gets through. The only way to counter that is to have the same restriction per square inch, but more surface area, which is actually what paper filters can do very well. The gauze filters rarely have as many vanes as paper filters.

3. Because of the method of calculating the quantity of dust that gets through, it doesn't tell you how much of what size is getting through.

4. "better airflow = more power" Contrary to what he says, it does. Maybe not in a big, low RPM diesel with a filter the size of some small states, but in small, higher RPM turbo engines I think the difference is probably greater.
1.) Realllly? And why not and to which world do you think they would better apply?

2.) Well, got that one.

3.) Ummmmm.....and your point is? I guess rocks would be worse.

4.) Depends on the base restriction. Gains can be negligible while wear can increase exponentially.
blttzen wrote:K&N has been around for 30 years. If the product was that bad it would have been drummed off the market long ago. Everybody has a point to prove, and you can usually devise a test to prove YOUR point, or highlight YOUR product even if generally not valid. Or you can just make it sound real official and make data up. In case you haven't noticed, this happens ALL the time in the aftermarket accessory Biz. There are Dozens of K&N vs. "Our" filter "studies". Diesels aspirate completely differently than Gas engines anyway.......Whatever. This comes up on every car forum about every 2 months and there are rabid pros as well as cons.I seriously doubt you could actually measure a wear difference in an engine over 100K of use with a properly functioning Paper filter Vs a properly sized and oiled K&N.
The above is a perfect example of someone ignorant of the scientific design of experiments, and the triumph of the belief in a non sequitor over reason.

Belive what you want, but don't ignore data obatined from a well designed experiment. And certainly don't believe everything you read in American advertising.

Q45tech
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Agreed you might not notice* any engine wear over 100,000 miles with K&N vs oem..................but is not the average like of an engine now 180,000 miles.

* I'm sure you could measure the compression and bearing differences but again these would not necessarily decrease the HP output.

Just as chain stretch increases peak HP above say 6,000 rpm by delaying the cams relative to piston position........this factor is well understood by engineers so they give up 2-3 brand new HP to gain it back and more as the chains stretch assumming that ring wear wil decease the power some over time................thus maintaining the stated rasting over a long time.

Ring wear from a K&N might be good except you have no way off knowing when is enough and it will vary cylinder to cylinder.

Dynos are so inaccurate and non repeatable even with precision corrections..........all you know is SOMETHING in the path is losing or gaining not what.

Q45tech
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This is a test run by Cummings.http://www.maintenanceworld.co...2.htm

Notice the gain at high rpm [chain stretch] losses from ring wear.

The well maintained engine actually produces more power at 250,000 miles than the brand new engine, while the poor oil change engine produces 18% less................oil and air filters.

Diesels and gasoline engines have lots in common.

http://www.turbovan.net/van.html


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