about that dual exhaust cam swap

[tramp_drift240]

i swapped out my intake cam for another exhaust cam, but i cant seem to get the timing right.

i followed the write-up on here how to do it, but it still seems like its a little off. a tooth, MAYBE.

should i just swap it back to the intake cam for the sake of getting my car running properly?

i dont know what to dooooo, its so close to being right on, but i can tell its not.

[dickie]

moved to vinnie/djpants' domain.

[tramp_drift240]

thank ya kindly, d!ck.

TTT, really needing to figure this out while its nice outside!!!

KA GODS, LAY YOUR ULTIMATE WISDOM UPON ME

[brizanden]

dude it is so nice out

[tramp_drift240]

yeah man i know, its been so crappy here the past week or so, and yesterday it was like...55 degrees, today its about 70.

SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE

[krazydriver]

All you gotta do is make sure you rotate it 4 teeth counter clockwise.I made sure i marked the chain when i did mine so i wouldn't lose my place.as long as you did that timing should be fine and it oughta fire right up.

[tramp_drift240]

i did move it back 4 teeth. i dunno, i just finished swapping my original cam in just for the sake of getting it to a running state.

then, after rotating it back 4 spaces to accomodate the original intake cam, i realized i was a tooth off. so i bet i couldve left the other cam on.

whatever, ill change it later. i just want to drive my car. ugh.

CAM SPROCKET BOLT. you know, the main idler gear or whatever, bolts to the head.

WHATS THE TORQUE SPEC FOR THAT BOLT. 19mm

[krazydriver]

you mean the bolt that holds the sprocket on the cam?If that's the one your talking about, 110 ft-lbs.Cam girdles should be 7.5~8ft lbs.

[tramp_drift240]

no no, i know about the cam sprocket being 110 and the cam "caps" as i know them by are around 8 or just slightly more than snug.

the IDLER gear. it has the worm gear on the end for the dizzy, and it connects the crank to the cams. i just kinda snugged it up, it was rather damn loose before, apparently. so hopefully bye-bye rattle as well.

[krazydriver]

oohh!FSM says 48-61 ft-lbs.

Why'd you have to take that off to get the cam out? I just pulled the sprocket and caught the chain on a screwdriver.

[DjPantsSpecR]

yea, i dont really post here anymore, or anywhere for that matter... BUT, just because d!ck asked im gonna help. i dont even troll this forum anymore, so you're in luck

first, what scares me is that you need to know the torque spec for the idler sprocket. that leads me to believe you pulled that off to get everything seated back int he right spot.

more importantly, messing up where the idler sprocket sits is an EASY way to get off by 1/2 a tooth at the cams. So what you may need to do is make sure that ALL dots are aligned on the entire cam system. guess what, you need to drop the oil pan to get the front cover off too even see that, and you need to raise the motor to even do that.

BUT, i can do it by sight, you wont be able to. if you took a picture of it i may not even be able to help. hopefully you put the sprocket back in the exact same place and you are only a tooth off as you suspect.

however it is possible to be a half a tooth off, and that would make everything 9 degrees off. so it still runs (ask me how i know....) especially if you messed with the idler sprocket

dont freak out yet though. if this is the case you can always move the idler sprocket ahead one tooth, and then try again witht he cam timing. it works everytime. think about it, try it, let me know, etc.

[tramp_drift240]

i took the idler sprocket off when i did the headgasket swap/head studs, i took my head to a machine shop to get it decked.

so i definitely have to have ALL dots lined up? meaning i would definitely have to redo the bottom chain AND the top chain?

i guess it makes sense with the degrees and whatnot, but with the first cylinder at tdc, i still got my cams looking perfect without having dots lined up. it rotates by hand just fine, and im REALLY not wanting to redo the whole thing. the weathers been crappy enough already, for me to take off the top, bottom, and front of my motor will be a complete PITA.

[DjPantsSpecR]

no, you might have to just remove the front cover, remove the idler sprocket, move it one tooth forward,re time the cams, and then call it a day.

if you ARBITRARILY put the idler sprocket back on the timing chain that goes to the crank shaft, you can time the cams and have them look right and everything, but they will be both off by 9 degrees. the reason for this is the idler sprocket has an uneven number of inside teeth, but and even number of outside teeth. thus you'd be half a degree off.

so when you put the stock cam back in, did you notice the car was slower?

[tramp_drift240]

i never took the sprocket out of the lower timing chain. when i took off the head, i unbolted the sprocket and leaned it back so it wouldnt fall out of the teeth.

no, i havent noticed any acceleration differences because i STILL HAVENT GOTTEN IT RUNNING.

im pretty sure, with my current "TDC, perfect cams" goin on, im thinking its just the distributor.

if not, im gonna be really pissed because im tired of having to reseal the upper timing cover, and im not too sure if id be able to do the complete timing re-do in my driveway.

what would i be moving the idler sprocket a tooth forward for?

depending on the weather, im gonna try to mess with the distributor to see whats up. with any luck, i can get it goin. its been out of commission for way too long.

[tramp_drift240]

Dj, i moved the dizzy back a tooth and tried, it wouldnt start, so i scooted all the way into the drivers seat and floored the gas pedal.

voila, it starts.

BUT, it only works on that tooth of the dizzy, all the way retarded, its idling kinda weird, as it gets advanced, the rpms just slowly rise to like 2500 or somethin.

im like "alright, we're getting somewhere at least"

i reach my little hand under my intake and upper rad. hose to get to the throttle body to give it some gas.

sputter sputter crappy crap McCrapperson, POP sound from my filter.

King of KA, give me your insight, i feel like progress has been made, but not NEARLY enough. i must get it finished ASAP.

[DjPantsSpecR]

****, i have one of my weekly 16 page lab reports to do....

first things first: a timing light would be a nice thing to use. i'd still like to see a picture of the cams at TDC, as i'd still like to see if that idler sprocket is off.

and trust me, you cant really see 9 degrees unless you have seen it before. additionally, you can never really get the dizzy timing on strong (it advances and retards weird) if the idler sprocket is off.

Check compression, listen for idle leaks. KEEP TRYING! gimmie more to go off of, i know we talked for a while last night, but gimmie!

[gingerbredman]

say wha!? unless the chain dropped or something the timing should be fine..unless you didnt mark the distributor position for when you put everything back together.

i dont know why people are saying you have to like rotate the cam gear 4 teeth this or that way because the cam sprocket is keyed on there. so if you rotate the gear, then you must rotate the cam itself also. and if the cams aren't facing opposite each other, then.. well i know thats not how their supposed to work.

anywho, i DIRECTLY swapped my exh. cam in their. i didn't mess with any teeth or timing, and it works like a charm. and its got a nice lope. top end is killer, low end is about the same. i love it

sorry for all that, i haven't had internet in like 4 months so im trying to catch up. oh i'll make it up to you guys, i'm about to put the vid on youtube. 240 cam swap.

[DjPantsSpecR]

thanks for the advice.....

unfortunately, you are a bit behind us as we have been IMing, and you really dont know what we're talking about.

mainly because you missed the point that this occured after a headgasket. The potential amount of problems is HUGE. And ive run into most of them.

And the point your making pertains tot he 248/248 swap. And if you're gonan deny that you ahve to rotate the cam gear 4 teeth CCW before you intall the keyed cam gear, you're severely mistaken. so unless you ahve anything else constructive to add, other than we dont knwo what we're talking about.... lots of luck gentlemen

[tramp_drift240]

well what other information are you needing, i wasnt really wanting to run it that much because it sounded extremely bad.

but what does it mean when there are some pops, and very very poor throttle response?

im pretty sure its gonna be raining all day tomorrow, so since im just under a carport, im not sure if ill be able to take off the upper cover for pictures, but we'll see

[DjPantsSpecR]

some pops and poor throttle response is usually what you get when the dizzy is OFF. Actually, usually when the dizzy is off by 180 degrees.

you could be really off on the cams and right on the dizzy and this occurs, but its much much more rare.

you gotta think, the crank angle sensor is in the distributer on S13s, so if you have that off, then the entire car is gonna run funny, because it thinks it knows what its doing, even though the cams will be off to that.

so i still think you may be half a tooth off via the idler sprocket. If i heard what you heard, and had the cranking experience i could tell you. But right now, that sounds like an ign timing thing, possibly caused by the idler sprocket being off.

lots of luck

[tramp_drift240]

as per request by DjPants, mind you it was snowing WHILE i was out there taking stuff off/apart and taking pictures:

crank at TDC (sorry for blurriness, it was a difficult area for my camera to fit)

Dizzy view (cap on, i was gonna take a picture of the cap off to show the rotor, but my battery died, its dead over the first cylinder though)

overall cam view

and a lower shot of the cams to better show the cylinder 1 lobes

they still look damn close to me, if not on point. gimmie some insight DJ, im countin' on you to get my stuff runnin' without taking it to a dealer. plus, im extremely broke. haha

[DjPantsSpecR]

i dont know where you went on AIM.

but, those cams are off. the intake cam is fine, but the exhaust needs to be rotated one tooth CCW.

[tramp_drift240]

i hereby declare that DjPants is awesome as hell.

moved my cam back a tooth, and it was running. just got back from driving around town a bit, super stoked that its actually working.

also, my cars not leaking so much from the freeze plugs anymore, and its actually flowing coolant!

odd thing though, my temp gauge is staying at cold, after driving it back home from my grandparents house, it was still cold and when i checked the radiator and hoses, they were only slightly warm.

maybe my radiator is ultra-efficient?

SUPA STOKED!!!

[tramp_drift240]

NEW QUESTION.

i had it running nice, wasnt sputtering, but my idle was high.

after getting it back home i went under the hood with the timing light.

after playing with the dizzy and getting it where it needs to be, when its firing at tdc, the idles at about 2500 to 3000 rpms.

i can get the idle down to around 1500 or so but its like. way way retarded.

any tips/advice?