A REAL motor swap question and YES I'VE SEARCHED

[Fifth ace]

Ok so I want to buy an s13 and I want more power but I dont like the KA block, I need a engine swap then. This thread isn't about which engines will fit (they all do lol). The idea is that I want to drift the car and I'm worried about weight distribution. I've narrowed down the list to four candidates, the RB25, SR20, VQ35 and the VG30 (TT of course). I know the SR wont change weight much and is commonly used in drifting so its a good choice but i'd like more low-end and originality. Then there's the RB but it's pretty much like having an anvil under the hood. The VG surely ins't any lighter but beeing a V6 keep it closer to the center of mass. Finaly there is the VQ, V6, all aluminium and everything but it's rare and expensive so is it worth the trouble? So what do you guys think?
Modified by Fifth ace at 6:55 PM 12/6/2006

[redhat-z]

Try an early VH45DE from a G50. About 300hp, 80lbs heavier than a KA, and available in most junkyards for several hundred $$. My project is currently under way.

[Beercandrifter]

Modified by Fifth ace at 6:55 PM 12/6/2006

Ok so I want to buy an s13 and I want more power but I dont like the KA block, I need a engine swap then. This thread isn't about which engines will fit (they all do lol). The idea is that I want to drift the car and I'm worried about weight distribution. I've narrowed down the list to four candidates, the RB25, SR20, VQ35 and the VG30 (TT of course). I know the SR wont change weight much and is commonly used in drifting so its a good choice but i'd like more low-end and originality. Then there's the RB but it's pretty much like having an anvil under the hood. The VG surely ins't any lighter but beeing a V6 keep it closer to the center of mass. Finaly there is the VQ, V6, all aluminium and everything but it's rare and expensive so is it worth the trouble? So what do you guys think?

Modified by Fifth ace at 6:55 PM 12/6/2006

Engine WeightsWithout transmisison (figure +100-150lbs)CA18ET 118 kg 260 lbsQR25DE 121 kg 267 lbsCA18DET 128 kg 282 lbsSR20DE 139 kg 306 lbsSR20DET 149 kg 328 lbsKA24DE 167 kg 368 lbs (est)

With Transmission:KA24DE ~520 lbsSR20DET 490 lbsRB25DET 667 lbs (280 hp)VG30DET 589 lbs

After having doing research for balancing my S13, I ended up limiting the choices to the SR20DET, KA-T and LS1. The SR20DET is lighter than the KA by a little but costs ~2000$ more to build due to initial costs of the motor and will require mods to get good hp out of, the KA is the cheaper and easier of the options but you dont want a ka not sure why. The LS1 would be a good option because it dosnt throw off the balance because it is lighter than the KA (all alluminum block) and only runs about 2500 and starts you at about 350hp, the mounts and crossmembers are bolt up and are sold by several vendors. What I would ask myself is, do I want to be original with the car and stay nissan, so I want to get rid of a I4 and change it, do I want to go all jdm or oem, really depends what you want =)

[jeremy242]

There is no way that a ka trans weights 152lbs. just my two cents

[Fifth ace]

Try an early VH45DE from a G50. About 300hp, 80lbs heavier than a KA, and available in most junkyards for several hundred $$. My project is currently under way.

Really? I'll check that out. Thanks.

Engine WeightsWithout transmisison (figure +100-150lbs)CA18ET 118 kg 260 lbsQR25DE 121 kg 267 lbsCA18DET 128 kg 282 lbsSR20DE 139 kg 306 lbsSR20DET 149 kg 328 lbsKA24DE 167 kg 368 lbs (est)

With Transmission:KA24DE ~520 lbsSR20DET 490 lbsRB25DET 667 lbs (280 hp)VG30DET 589 lbs

After having doing research for balancing my S13, I ended up limiting the choices to the SR20DET, KA-T and LS1. The SR20DET is lighter than the KA by a little but costs ~2000$ more to build due to initial costs of the motor and will require mods to get good hp out of, the KA is the cheaper and easier of the options but you dont want a ka not sure why. The LS1 would be a good option because it dosnt throw off the balance because it is lighter than the KA (all alluminum block) and only runs about 2500 and starts you at about 350hp, the mounts and crossmembers are bolt up and are sold by several vendors. What I would ask myself is, do I want to be original with the car and stay nissan, so I want to get rid of a I4 and change it, do I want to go all jdm or oem, really depends what you want =)

Thats a lot of info, thanks! The reason I don't like the KA is juste that I plan to make a lot of power in the long run and I don't think the KA block can hold together. As for the LS1, I just prefer japaneese . But the VG still seems like a good choice for me, it's lighter that I thought too. I can get one for 900 bucks plus shipping. The VH looks nice too and I'd love to put a 350 engine under my hood but I'm still concerned with the price. The RB25 just seems out of question with that kind of weight (doesn't it produces 250hp by the way?). Any other ideas? I'd love to hear feedback from people who did those swaps.

[prsfan]

The LS1 option is the "new thing" in the RX-7 world. If those Mazda guys can stand getting rid of there rotory, us Nissan guys should be able to handle it!

It's a good engine all around, plus you can fix it with a hammer. Upgrades are limitless also. More than 500+ hp avaliable with good tuning.

Good luckJ

[Fifth ace]

The LS1 option is the "new thing" in the RX-7 world. If those Mazda guys can stand getting rid of there rotory, us Nissan guys should be able to handle it!

It's a good engine all around, plus you can fix it with a hammer. Upgrades are limitless also. More than 500+ hp avaliable with good tuning.

Good luckJ

I'm a rotary fan myself and I would never put anything else in my seven. And as I said I just prefer not to use a gm engine. Got nothing agaist it but american engines in american cars is my moto.

[240Guroo@ProtoMotoring]

sr20det is most commonly used and easier to find parts for. better pricing. they are known for its top end power. better known for everyday use and reliabilty.

once you get to the rb's thats where you will get some nice bottom end power. but, parts are pricy. pricy period. skyline power buddy.

vq's are still in the works. let the bugs get worked out. how about some ls1 power.

much luck finding what u want. let me know what you end up with.

[Corbic]

So what do you guys think?

I think LS1, being a OHV engine it will be very compact and potentially lighter then the VQ and VGs. 330rwhp and 330rwtq in a N/A form is nothing to joke about in a 2,600lb car. You'r going to sping the tires in just about any gear.

[Corbic]

The LS1 option is the "new thing" in the RX-7 world. If those Mazda guys can stand getting rid of there rotory, us Nissan guys should be able to handle it!

It's a good engine all around, plus you can fix it with a hammer. Upgrades are limitless also. More than 500+ hp avaliable with good tuning.

Good luckJ

New thing? Where have you been? SBCs have been finding thier way into RX-7s since the early 80's. RX-7s are light, well built and have huge engine bays... need I say more?

[Fifth ace]

First, why would somebody like a rx if its not powered by a rotary engine? Its part of the car, even the name says. Beats me. Anyway this isn't a mazda forum.

Second, I wont use a LS1. If you look closely, you'll see I never even seggested it in the first place. As far as I know it isn't cheap and it's not my style. I'm not saying it's a bad engine but I just dont see it in my car. So just stop telling me to use the LS1.

But if someone as another idea i'm still all ears...

[martins_240sx]

the ka is good choice...its already in the car and you can go to your local parts store and get all those tiny parts with out having to cross reference...if properly built you can make good reliable power...and plus you get the torque of the ka....think about it, if you want to lets say get an sr20det...thats about 2000-3000 depending on the vender and whats included in the swap....not to mention the price if you were to take it to a shop to get swapped...now i dont think that you are going to want to drive it stock...so you would probably upgrade the turbo or something...more money...new fmic...more money...and if you are smart you wont believe that stuff about how japanese engines are never driven hard and were swapped out after a year or some fullishnessthe...so to be safe engine rebuild ....list would go on.....Now the ka is already in the car...just rebuild it....a great rebuild kit from what I hear is the one from amsperfomance....its only around 1700 or something...now go to jgstools and look at there basic turbo kit...about 1600ish....intercooler and ecu and so on...little bit more at the beginning...but if you look at the ka-ts on ka-t.org they are running the same or similiar set ups and laying down crazy numbers out of this underrated motor...plus underrated means cheaper replacement parts.....everyone votes for the underdog.... just my $.02.....feel free to correct me if Im wrong.

[Fifth ace]

Well my ka is pretty much at the end of his life so if i'm going to change it anyway I might as well put something more agressive. As I already said I can get a VG30DETT for pretty cheap (900$ cheap) and it was also available in north america so no problem with parts. More power than a KA-T right out of the box. Just imagine those 300 ponies pulling a S13.

[martins_240sx]

what does it matter if your ka is on its death bed??? you are rebuilding it!!! with that kit from ams you get everything except the crank damn near. that makes a pretty much new motor.....and the vg is not going to be cheap...even if you find one for cheap its not going to be easy to get in there with all the fab work...not every motor just slids right in...plus from what iv been hearing those vg arent the most user friendly....and you can get a ka-t well over 300 out of the box...it just depends what you put into it.

[thomasjamal]

What about the CA?!?!

Yeah, it would take more of a build to get the necessary power but it's the lightest engine of all and (I've been told) sits a little farther back to give you better weight distribution, which is your goal, right?

By the way if you don't think the CA can produce enough power check the CA forum. There was a build pulling 600whp on a CA on there a few days ago. I'll try to find it...

[1991S13]

You don't like the KA block? What isn't there to like about an iron block and stock internals that can hold +/-350hp on a daily basis with a good tune?

Another question...why do you want low end in a drift car that is going to spend most its time bouncing off the rev limiter?

My opinion...don't worry about weight distribution. When you are building competition level drift cars, then take that into consideration. You're probably still young, so you should be more worried about building a fast but reliable street car that can also be fun to throw old tires on and drift on the weekends or whatever.

If you want some driftastic JDM-tyte s13, jump on the bandwagon, stick with what has been done, and throw an SR in it and burn rubber off into the sunset. The money spent swapping in a VG, VH, LS1 and all the other wild engines mentioned would be kind of a waste when you could build and turbo a KA or swap in an SR with bolt on's that would spank it for thousands less.

[martins_240sx]

Couldnt have been said better.

I still say go with th KA...

[Fifth ace]

You don't like the KA block? What isn't there to like about an iron block and stock internals that can hold +/-350hp on a daily basis with a good tune?

Another question...why do you want low end in a drift car that is going to spend most its time bouncing off the rev limiter?

My opinion...don't worry about weight distribution. When you are building competition level drift cars, then take that into consideration. You're probably still young, so you should be more worried about building a fast but reliable street car that can also be fun to throw old tires on and drift on the weekends or whatever.

If you want some driftastic JDM-tyte s13, jump on the bandwagon, stick with what has been done, and throw an SR in it and burn rubber off into the sunset. The money spent swapping in a VG, VH, LS1 and all the other wild engines mentioned would be kind of a waste when you could build and turbo a KA or swap in an SR with bolt on's that would spank it for thousands less.

Well the low end I'll admit is more for my pure driving pleasure... Thats why a want a six, no replacement for displacement as they say. More torque is always useful to break tires loose anyway. I don't really need a perfect 50/50 weight distribution because that can be easily optained with a good suspension setup. I just dont want to get to the point where I get serious understeering, I want a car that's fast on its feet. Now doing a KA-T or CA build isn't out of the question. I know a VG or VQ swap is going to be a hell more lot of work but I'm not at my first motor swap and I like challenges. I dont think it's gonna be much more expensive in the long run howerver, bigger rad, stronger shaft, beefer trans, they're all in the plan anyway. And, yeah I'm still young, 18 in fact and still in college so this swap wont happen before a couple of month but I still got a back up plan while waiting. Have you ever seen a pink sonoma drift? I'd show a pic but I dont know how. lol

[martins_240sx]

[QUOTE=Fifth ace]Well the low end I'll admit is more for my pure driving pleasure... Thats why a want a six, no replacement for displacement as they say. More torque is always useful to break tires loose anyway. [QUOTE]

What are you going to do with all that torque? after so much you wont even be able to give the car full throttle without wrapping it around a tree...unless you want to tub your car, then driftinging is out of the question....I dont think you understand how expensive those motors are, and you even said your 18 in college...If its something you really want to do than do it...but you can get plenty of power and torque, KA, out of these small, cheap , motors.

[Fifth ace]

Now hold on, I didn't said I wanted enough torque that I would need a roll-cage (and why wouldn't that work with drift?). I aiming for about 300 horses and a similar amount of torque. A VQ, VG or VH for that matter crank out these numbers stock. Of course a swap cost money but here is my estimate. Lets use the VG as an exemple, I need the engine, a Z32 transmission, a custom driveshaft, ECU, intercoolers and piping. Everything exept the shaft could be found in a juckyard of an old 300ZX so lets say about 3000 plus 500 for the driveshaft. Has for everything else, like upgrading the fuel or cooling systems, I would need to do it with a KA build anyway. If I rebuild the KA I'll need at least low comp. forged pistons, forged rods, turbo kit and ECU. Add that to the rebuilding kit and you're close to the 3500 of the VG. I know an engine like that doesn't just drop in but dont worry I can handle myself. And so you know I can put at least about 400 bucks a month aside for my car so a project like that Isn't purely fantasy. It will take time but it feasable.

[martins_240sx]

Hey it sounds like your getting a little upset. Im not trying to knock your idea. If thats what you want then go for it. Just make sure you think of everything and do a lot of research on it before you start dropping butt loads of money into it. You said you could save money every month, this would be a great time to research while you wait...Look to see the pros and the cons of all these motors and what previous builders did to get their motors into their engine bays.

[Fifth ace]

Nah, I'm not upset it's just that I'm no 16 years old that played need for speed and thinks he can rule the streets with his Cavalier. I just want to argue correctly to be sure I make the best choice. I already said I prefer six pots but if someone gives me numbers to prove building a 4 banguer would be considerably cheaper then that could change my mind. Otherwise I'm sticking with VG or VQ (maybe VH). Still wondering why a cage couldn't go with drifting though...

[180fan]

that a 4 banger will be cheaper? Look at the installation kits if they're available. The bolt on kits for the RB's, the VQ and 2JZ already tack on 1-2k to the total cost over a bolt in 4 banger. Look at parts for the 6 cylinders versus the 4 cylinders, you'll see more parts aka more cost. Short and long term, with 6 you'll have more cost. Additionally if you plan on doing circuit racing, every little pound lost will be of benefit to you. You can get 4 cylinders that can rival 6 cylinder engines in terms of output. If you're really dead set on maintaining a low center of gravity and a 6 cylinder, you might want to consider a 6 cylinder boxer, if you've already come to terms with a higher installation cost and don't mind down time.

[Fifth ace]

Who said I needed an installation kit? All I need is a good welder (wich I have) and some steel plates. After all it's not the first time I do that kind of work.

[martins_240sx]

Hey whats wrong with a cavalier ....I had a 97 that would spank a lot of these 240s. 285whp 289tq ...I just couldnt get it over 108mph...damn govorner . I think that you are confused no one said roll cages are bad....thats a good investment for safety... I said tubbed...where you have huge rear tires like 1/4mile cars pushing 5s and 6 second runs. the rear tire wells look like tubs. A lot of people used to use 55 gallon drums for the tire wells if you are interested in doing that...

And Im pretty sure I told you about a place to get your power needs for alot cheaper than what your looking at....jgstools.com....amsperformance.com

[thomasjamal]

If you're really dead set on maintaining a low center of gravity and a 6 cylinder, you might want to consider a 6 cylinder boxer, if you've already come to terms with a higher installation cost and don't mind down time.

That's a great idea. I know I've never seen that.

Fifth ace, you can be the first!

Do it, do it.

[thomasjamal]

OH yeah, here's the 600whp CA.

zerothread?id=211264

[daconkiftador]

KA24DE FTW.

If your shooting for only 300 to the wheels, why hassle with a swap, get a quick spooling turbo and have at her.

[martins_240sx]

Hey might as well swap the sanoma motor in there

just kidding dont do that