A nifty study of the next-gen Maxima...

[MinisterofDOOM]

I think you've missed the point of my post, Greg, and dragged it off on a tangent. I originally wrote a reply to YOUR reply, but then I realized those aren't the things I'm complaining about. It's not a "I miss the old ways" lament at all. It's much more simple and direct: "I want the best, only the best, and anyone who isn't striving to be the best can take a hike." And with a CVT and aged VQ, the Maxima is not trying to be the best.

My LS8 is NOT perfect. It has an open differential, too much dialed-in understeer to cater to the geezers it was meant for, no clutch, a wheelbase that's a little too short for the body, and an interior that looks like it fell out of a Fisher Price quality assurance reject bin. BUT...everything it gets right is that way becuase it was doing EVERYTHING IT COULD to be the VERY best. Its goal, openly and proudly stated by Ford, was the E39 540i, arguably the pinnacle of BMW's sedan history (unless you count the E39 M5, obviously, but that's not QUITE fair as its a limited performance model). It targeted that car in every way. Weight, power, handling, interior space, luxury, everything. It did NOT succeed on every front. Nobody does (not even BMW) when trying to beat the best. But it did a lot right. It's VERY light (less than 100lb heavier than that 2014 Maxima that's less powerful and wrong-wheel drive). It is superbly neutral (save that damned understeer). It has double-wishbone suspension providing the perfect blend of comfort, road feel and handling. It puts power to the right end of the car. The steering is light but communicative (when it isn't having issues with column lubrication causing it to stiffen up). It has a tall, open greenhouse with ample headroom and great visibility while still managing great proportions.
The Bimmer is faster, more agile, a little lighter, and much more luxurious. But the LS8 is still in second place BECAUSE IT TRIED. It's not average. It's excellent. Because it CARED to be excellent.

That's what I want. It's not a matter of past, present, or future. The matter is my disappointment that the Maxima just seems to have gotten lazy. I'm not interested in lazy, whether it's from people, cars, videogames, music, motorcycles, or anything else. Lazy is for other people. I want the best. I wish the Maxima wanted to be the best.

And maybe it does! My original post was only critical of certain points of the styling (which I like overall) and the powertrain. And those are speculation. I would LOVE to be proven wrong. I'm simply voicing my concerns. My reaction to this Maxima is really quite positive...with reservations. And I guess that's what makes it most frustrating. Reservations matter most when they're holding back something great.

If Nissan wanted to put me behind the wheel of a 2014 and a 2015 Maxima on a road course, I promise I'd be very open-minded (but not censored).

I promise, this is NOT negativity. It's not some sepia-toned longing for what once was. It's criticism of somethign that has the potential to be great...or mediocre. I will wait patiently, since I'm not in the market for something FWD anytime soon anyway (and if I was, it wouldn't be brand new).

[Jesda]

you can theorize all you want with "what if's" but the at the end of the day, the sad reality is that to non-enthusiast automotive appliance buyers, "out dated junk" is fine just as long as it's reliable and inexpensive.

No.


As global society advances and crawls out of the darkness of poverty, especially central Asia, SE Asia, and China, customers moving up in the world demand more from their goods.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo[/youtube]

THIS is why the Corolla is no longer #1. The more stylish and better-engineered Focus outsells it. Even if you take the traditional motoring enthusiast out of the equation, the average Joe or the new driver (China) still has expectations of refinement, comfort, and style.

There's a reason why Ford no longer builds the Model T. What was durable and more than adequate at one point in time became woefully dated as the competition caught up and raised the expectations of everyone, not just auto enthusiasts on the leading edge.

[Jesda]

Out dated junk worked for the beetle for a long, long time.

That being said, it was sort of a fluke.

Did you know Nissan still sells the B13 in Mexico?

You can only sell dated crap to markets that are slow to evolve.

Mexico is highly corrupt with poor infrastructure. No surprise that their slow economic development, despite the gift of being located in North America, has relegated their population to lesser goods.

It's also why Mexico has been largely bypassed in recent years for manufacturing and engineering in favor of Korea, Japan, SE Asia, India, and China.


Call it the exception rather than the rule.

[Jesda]

I keep forgetting about Eastern Europe and Russia. They've rapidly evolving too, favoring higher-quality goods over three-box Ladas. Even a Romanian-built Dacia is a tolerable car these days.

[Jesda]

The Bimmer is faster, more agile, a little lighter, and much more luxurious. But the LS8 is still in second place BECAUSE IT TRIED. It's not average. It's excellent. Because it CARED to be excellent.

And it showed in sales volume. I remember the LS used to fly out of showrooms until Ford neglected to update the car.

Ahh, the wacky Jacques Nasser days.

[AZhitman]

Jesda's right. There's a reason the Datsun intended for India, Russia, etc is a FAR better car than the eastern European crapboxes it will soon be replacing.

[Bubba1]

Yes, I do see the validity of that argument with other countries, but I humbly disagree that you can apply that same argument so easily to the US market. It's a different animal.

I don't think the Model T represents a good example as a comparison to the Corolla for the US market, as the T was rather obsolete compared to the next generation automobile. The Corolla is more of a case of being a little less sophisticated than Focus and others, but it remains competitive, offering similar amenities, features, etc. But that leads to a good question. Which is preferable to a US consumer? A less complex car that gets 30+ mpg or a more complex/technologically advanced one that gets 30+ mpg? That answer is not gonna be the same for every American. There is no right or wrong. But the significant upward growth in Corolla sales after 2011, (and prior to their redesign) kinda supports my argument that, like it or not, many American new car buyers prefer the former. It seems to me that too much emphasis is being placed on whether or not Corolla is the #1 or #2 best selling model, because at the end of the day, Toyota continues to sell a few hundred thousand of the dang things in this country alone every year, and that number seems to be trending upward again. Enthusiasts might not like that a non-sporty car like a Corolla remains a huge seller, but it is what it is.

[Jesda]

Yes, I do see the validity of that argument with other countries, but I humbly disagree that you can apply that same argument so easily to the US market. It's a different animal.

I don't think the Model T represents a good example as a comparison to the Corolla for the US market, as the T was rather obsolete compared to the next generation automobile. The Corolla is more of a case of being a little less sophisticated than Focus and others, but it remains competitive, offering similar amenities, features, etc. But that leads to a good question. Which is preferable to a US consumer? A less complex car that gets 30+ mpg or a more complex/technologically advanced one that gets 30+ mpg? That answer is not gonna be the same for every American. There is no right or wrong. But the significant upward growth in Corolla sales after 2011, (and prior to their redesign) kinda supports my argument that, like it or not, many American new car buyers prefer the former. It seems to me that too much emphasis is being placed on whether or not Corolla is the #1 or #2 best selling model, because at the end of the day, Toyota continues to sell a few hundred thousand of the dang things in this country alone every year, and that number seems to be trending upward again. Enthusiasts might not like that a non-sporty car like a Corolla remains a huge seller, but it is what it is.

The Corolla offers mediocre fuel economy compared to its competitors and competes heavily on price with generous incentive spending and heavy fleet dumping. They even priced it below the Civic to recapture lost market share. At one time the go-to choice for people seeking reliable, anonymous transportation, it's been left behind quickly over the last ten years.

It doesn't matter what auto enthusiasts think of the Corolla as average motorists are waking up to other options, even outside of the US.
Nor does it matter that Corolla sales are up -- the ENTIRE INDUSTRY is up with Toyota's market share in decline for years.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 32044.html


The Camry and Corolla continue to sell primarily to Toyota loyalists who are too comfortable, lazy, or risk-averse to shop the competition. They may not have been wronged by their cars, but they certainly aren't doing themselves a favor by wasting their money on inferior goods.

For the remaining Toyota buyers (excluding some trucks and SUVs), the lure is price, something Toyota hasn't had to compete on in decades, a tactic historically reserved for slow-selling Ford, Chrysler, and GM cars.

A friend of mine (30 years old) recently traded her Grand Cherokee in for a Camry. She -loved- her Jeep but it was on its last legs at 210,000 miles. She looked at a new Grand Cherokee but they were priced way beyond what she could afford. While she finds the Camry she purchased to be mostly unimpressive, especially the thin paint and lifeless driving experience, $199 per month is a hard lease deal to pass up.

Apparently Toyota has gone from "Oh what a feeling!" to "Oh, what a spectacular deal on a car I can actually afford!" As GM discovered in the late 90s and early 2000s, you can move stale metal with price as an incentive but you cannot build generations of loyal customers or establish long-term market share using sloppy, short-term tactics.

Toyota's car products have to be significantly revamped to meet the high consumer expectations set by Korean and American competitors. This is an intensely competitive industry where just ten minutes of apathy and complacency can lead to years of disaster.

Toyota's buyers are aging too. This all sounds like Buick from just a few years ago.

[Bubba1]

[
The Corolla offers mediocre fuel economy compared to its competitors and competes heavily on price with generous incentive spending and heavy fleet dumping. They even priced it below the Civic to recapture lost market share. At one time the go-to choice for people seeking reliable, anonymous transportation, it's been left behind quickly over the last ten years.

It doesn't matter what auto enthusiasts think of the Corolla as average motorists are waking up to other options, even outside of the US.

It seems to matter to you because you are an enthusiast. To a non-enthusiast "mediocre" performance is still considered perfectly acceptable. trust me, I'm surrounded by non-enthusiasts. Most could care less if their Corolla is a few ticks slower 0-60 than a Kia. Bottom line, they care if It's safe, reliable, gets them from point A-B inexpensively and comfortably. And familiarity seems to trump advanced technology for that type of buyer. It is what it is.

As far as incentive pricing, of course Toyota has to resort to them, so does pretty much every other manufacturer at one time or another. Don't forget Toyota has the added burden of recovering from a recent massive well publicized recall, much of which turned out to be driver error. If you recall Audi went thru the same exact problem with the Audi 5000's "unintended acceleration" problem. Also turned out to be mostly driver error and it took a few years for them to recover from it. Heck Ford went thru a similar hell with the early Focus, when it broke the record for most government recalls ever for a single model. Ford ended up offering incentives too to get sales moving again.

[The Camry and Corolla continue to sell primarily to Toyota loyalists who are too comfortable, lazy, or risk-averse to shop the competition. They may not have been wronged by their cars, but they certainly aren't doing themselves a favor by wasting their money on inferior goods..

That's speculation, but even if it were true, you could just as easily think of it this way: What's wrong with rewarding excellent ownership experiences by buying a similar brand when its time to replace it? It's called brand loyalty. I assume in your view, Toyota is not allowed to participate. People are free to buy whatever they want for whatever reasons they want. As far your claim of Toyota's being "inferior goods", I don't believe your view is shared by the majority of the buying public as Toyota resale values are consistently strong. I think a more accurate term might be "not as technologically advanced". Unfortunately that's not that important to a non-enthusiast transportation appliance buyer.

A friend of mine (30 years old) recently traded her Grand Cherokee in for a Camry. She -loved- her Jeep but it was on its last legs at 210,000 miles. She looked at a new Grand Cherokee but they were priced way beyond what she could afford. While she finds the Camry she purchased to be mostly unimpressive, especially the thin paint and lifeless driving experience, $199 per month is a hard lease deal to pass up.

.

For every negative anecdote you supply, I could easily match you with positive ones. Stalemate.

[
Apparently Toyota has gone from "Oh what a feeling!" to "Oh, what a spectacular deal on a car I can actually afford!" As GM discovered in the late 90s and early 2000s, you can move stale metal with price as an incentive but you cannot build generations of loyal customers or establish long-term market share using sloppy, short-term tactics.

Right, but GM was overcoming decades of crappy vehicles, and could not sell their cars without long term sloppy incentives. Toyota's reputation, on the other hand, during the same decades was considerably better which helped establish that stong brand loyalty. It seems logical to view those sloppy short-term tactics as exactly what they are. Sloppy short term tactics designed to overcome the bad taste from a recent major recall. You seem to imply it's a long term change in strategy.

Toyota's buyers are aging too. This all sounds like Buick from just a few years ago.

Yes, but unlike Buicks, Toyota seems to have the interest of the single largest demographic, baby boomers. I agree they need to re-develop their strategy to attract younger buyers to their brands as we baby boomers have begun to shrink in numbers. But I believe Toyota has been doing that, judging by some of their smaller offerings and the Scion division.

[IBCoupe]

THIS is still the best Maxima ever made. And it is a twenty four year old design. Nissan hasn't even managed to hold the line. They've retreated so far there's nothing left to hold! They've sacrificed everything in the name of broad appeal.

Appearance-wise, sure. I recall those (my roommate in college had a brand new 1994 SE), and drove it on occasion. But let's be real - It didn't take a Giorgetto Giugiaro to design that car. It's standard-issue 1994.

Comparing apples to apples (and ignoring the fact that we can't really quantify "I just don't like it"), the "regression" claim just doesn't hold up.

In 1994, the Maxima SE was $23,530 ($36,500 in today's dollars using the CPI as an indicator), had 190hp/190/tq, weighed 3144 lbs (16.5 lbs per hp) had a 5-speed MT, got 21/26 mpg, ran 6.9 seconds 0-60 with a quarter mile time of 15.4 seconds at 93 mph, and posted .78g roadholding. Solid stuff for 1994.

The 2014 Maxima SV Sport is $36,090 ($23,300 in 1994 dollars), has 290hp/261tq, weighs 3570 lbs (12.3 lbs per hp), has a CVT with manual mode, gets 19/26 mpg, runs 5.8 seconds 0-60 with a quarter mile time of 14.3 seconds at 98 mph, and posted .68g roadholding.

"Sacrificed everything" is overly broad... Sure, you don't row your own gears in the new Max (but you don't row your own gars in your current DD, either). As far as comfort, performance, value and economy, I'm not seeing the Grim Reaper working here, Chris.

I also don't see "retreating." It's certainly not setting the world on fire, but that was never the intent of the Maxima (as much as it chaps the guys over at the .org). It's not the GT-R. It's a sporty middle/upscale sedan. As much as we'd all like to think it, the Maxima wasn't EVER bought (new) by the canyon-carvers and adrenaline junkies of the world. It was a middle-management concession, and the "sport" component of the marketing meant that it was just a SMIDGE better at handling and acceleration than the competition.

For almost the exact same money, in 2013, you're getting performance and economy that has kept pace with the market in a safe and average manner.

I spend time with a LOT of new cars, and frankly, I don't see anything hitting the market that, under closer scrutiny, really will check all your boxes. I don't revel in that, believe me - we like a lot of the same stuff. I just spent some white-knuckle road course time with a 2014 Max SV Sport, and I certainly didn't sit there and think, "Boy, I sure with there was a '94 Maxima SE here to drive."

It's a fun-to-drive, well-engineered car, aimed directly at the buyer who can't abide the thought of a Camry and is fed up with Honda's mediocrity. They don't want a "look-what-a-tool-I-am" IS350, and they're not quite in 3-series range yet.

I would like to have sex with the above comment.

[Jesda]

Yes, but unlike Buicks, Toyota seems to have the interest of the single largest demographic, baby boomers. I agree they need to re-develop their strategy to attract younger buyers to their brands as we baby boomers have begun to shrink in numbers. But I believe Toyota has been doing that, judging by some of their smaller offerings and the Scion division.

There is nothing brag-worthy about being the darling of the Boomer generation. Their numbers are shrinking and Scion has only appealed to more of them, attracting even older buyers than Toyota itself!

The mainstream buyer will ONLY tolerate mediocrity if the PRICE IS RIGHT. Look at the mind-boggling volume of Cavaliers and Sunfires sold over a quarter century. All of them came with piles of cash in the trunk. You have to bribe people to settle for lesser goods. Back then, GM was cashing in on declining brand equity similar to what Toyota is doing now.

And it isn't mediocre DRIVING PERFORMANCE that we're talking about, it's mediocre FUEL ECONOMY and PERCEIVED TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENT, a big effing deal to the mainstream buyer who can't tell a double wishbone from a double chin.


(The three Ps of marketing -- learn them, understand them, and worship them.)


My friend, you are a stubborn goat who refuses to accept the advancement of the mainstream automobile -- Toyota's favorite kind of customer. Consumers are less brand-loyal than ever. They look for standard high-tech features and options as the reliability gap among mainstream cars closes. They might not know d!ck about direct injection but they do know MPGs and MP3s.


Even your monthly toilet paper subscription, Consumer Reports, agrees with me.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm
http://business.time.com/2012/10/30/why ... ar-buyers/
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2011 ... first.html

[Jesda]

Heck, even Toyota -itself- acknowledges the problem, promising to allow the company's American management to take the reigns on design and engineering for North American products. This is the same approach Hyundai and Kia took when it redesigned its own vehicles, looking outside of itself for direction and inspiration.

The real problems, however, go deeper than that. Toyota's production system is legendary, still the model of all kinds of industries, but management have to be continually committed. Toyota has become complacent when it comes to design and technological development, but they've been resting on the sidelines completely when it comes to consistency, communication, and control.

And I'm not just talking about the acceleration nonsense from a couple years ago. The failure in that case wasn't electrical or mechanical. It was a failure of leadership and crisis management.

Quality reading:
http://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/what ... to-toyota/
http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/ ... -comeback/
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 04028.html

My point isn't "BASH TOYOTA THEY SUCK" (well, they kind of suck ). No, my point is that times change and when they do, leaders quickly become followers if they aren't careful.

Toyota knows it has a problem and is undergoing several changes in management and organizational structure to remedy the problem, sort of like how GM and Ford have attempted to broaden their organizations to eliminate bureaucratic hurdles to success. We'll see if they can turn things around and regain lost market share for 2014; it will only get harder as competitors rapidly catch up and pass them.

[Jesda]

For almost the exact same money, in 2013, you're getting performance and economy that has kept pace with the market in a safe and average manner.

That's something the old GM would have said to justify a lack of innovation to shareholders.

[Bubba1]

My friend, you are a stubborn goat who refuses to accept the advancement of the mainstream automobile -- in:

Yep, but you left out "old" in front of goat. But I still luv' ya....in a non-prison kinda way.

Gotta scoot. Leaving for Summit Point Raceway. Check back later.

[AZhitman]

I would like to have sex with the above comment.

Feel free. I already did.

[AZhitman]

Consumers are less brand-loyal than ever. They look for standard high-tech features and options as the reliability gap among mainstream cars closes.

Indeed. And it's not just the uninformed buyer - I'd say I fall squarely in the middle of this trend.

Let's face it - No one builds a turd anymore. They'll all do 100K miles without much drama. Some will be worthless at the end, others will be sought-after by lower-income, informed buyers. OEMs have to set their offerings apart form the rest somehow, and for customers who don't give a damn about electronic geegaws (like me), they'd better build something that gets me happy in pants.

[Rev_D21]

There's a reason why Ford no longer builds the Model T.

According to Henry Ford they never stopped making the Model T, people just stopped buying them.

[AZhitman]

Just received early confirmation: Drivetrain choices for the 2015 Maxima (which no one at Nissan is denying will look VERY much like the rendering), will be as follows:

* 3.7-liter V6
* 2.5-liter supercharged hybrid

[Bubba1]

Just received early confirmation: Drivetrain choices for the 2015 Maxima (which no one at Nissan is denying will look VERY much like the rendering), will be as follows:

* 3.7-liter V6
* 2.5-liter supercharged hybrid

Any word on their choice of transmission? (I'm cringing)

[RicerX]

Ok. The 3.7L has only ever been made to a RWD or AWD architecture. (I'm looking at you, 370Z/G37/M37/FX37). I think this is a fantastic sign, as the only transmissions mated to these are 7ATs or 6MTs.

VERY promising, IMHO. VERY promising. I'm so excited to hear this - this is the type of stuff the Maxima needs in order to fully distance itself from the Altima.

Also - WTF 2.5L S/C Hybrid?

[PapaSmurf2k3]

I believe they are using a supercharged QR hybrid in the current mallfi eerr... pathfinder.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I'm so excited to hear this - this is the type of stuff the Maxima needs in order to fully distance itself from the Altima.

Agreed. Even more than distancing from the Altima...it's simply about time Nissan did ANYTHING to the FWD VQ. It hasn't changed significantly since 2002.

[RicerX]

Another render has come up (that is far cleaner than the one from the original post) -



http://www.carscoops.com/2013/11/future ... onary.html

[Bubba1]

Another render has come up (that is far cleaner than the one from the original post) -



http://www.carscoops.com/2013/11/future ... onary.html

hmmm. I don't mind the floating roof look but that burping beaver tooth front end doesn't capture me.