A nation divided....

Post by **Ace2cool** » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:03 pm

So, over the past couple of days, I've come to take notice exactly HOW much America is divided on this issue of not only gun control, but just about every action of the Obama administration. Now, I want this to be a neutral discussion ground on exactly WHY the nation is divided as such, and why certain people hold the opinions that they do. Let's keep this civil. For example, I don't want to see anything like this:

"Your party sucks because fact, reason, ect"
Rebuttal:
"Yeah, well YOUR party (non-related fact vaguely painting party in a bad light)"

That doesn't help the conversation, so let's keep this on topic. So why do you guys think the nation is so divided? When in the history's nation, apart from the prohibition era, have there ever been threats of insurrection? I don't recall any being taught in our history books. The most publicity anything ever got was a bunch of protests of foreign wars in Washington. Why would this administration be the cause of so much controversy, to the point of angering the American populace to be at ends with each other? What exactly is the issue?

I'm not just talking about guns here, though that does seem to be the metaphorical straw breaking the camel's back. Medicare, budget, and many other topics are drawing intense lines in the sand that I haven't ever seen. Granted, I'm a young'un, but this is a serious issue for my generation. We're just beginning to take an interest in politics. This is when my generation will form their ideas about how government should be run. Surely we don't want to be taught that the government will just argue all the time, and just accept it as so? Please, discuss all the tension.

Post by **WDRacing** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:45 am

For starters, it's not just one "party" that has put us where we are. Our Gov has given itself everything it's ever wanted for decades. There is absolutely no responsible governing at all and there hasn't been in quite some time.

On the topic of why we're so divided, for me it's pretty clear. On entitlements, I don't believe in taking from the people that have in order to support the people that don't have. I believe in personal accountability. I believe it's up to the individual to make something of themselves rather than have things given to them. Be it college education or section 8 housing, I don't like my tax dollars being spent on things that don't benefit my family directly nor indirectly. Example, rather then look for methods of budget reform and program reform in order to make our spending on various social programs sustainable, we instead go after increased revenue via taxes. Meanwhile, we're borrowing billions of dollars a day to continue our out of control spending lifestyle. More taxes coupled with more borrowing so we can continue spending. For some reason, I just don't think we should be operating on a budget that is more than $1,000,000,000,000 upside down every year. I believe it's our Gov's duty to achieve a balanced budget and to be fiscally responsible.

Look at the debt ceiling and the lies surrounding it. We don't have to default if it isn't increased. We take in about 250 billion/month in revenue, our debt bill monthly is about 19 billion. Tell me how not raising that limit causes us to default? Not raising it forces the Gov to control it's spending. Look at who doesn't want to raise it and look at who thinks it should no longer have a limit at all!

I have 3 boys that are being saddled with debt before they even know what a tax return is.

Just for a visual, this is what our debt looks like.

1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
1,000,000,000,000
+1,456,537,XXX,XXX
..........................
16,456,537,XXX,XXX

That's the amount of money we owe other countries. In 3 years we're forecast to add another 3,000,000,000,000 to that number even with the tax hike we just implemented on the top 1%.

Obama and the Senate want no spending cuts and no debt limit. I disagree.

Post by **Marenta** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:17 am

The reason why we are divided is because of Freedom.

America has freedomed itself into this split. There is no longer one clear goal or one over-arching theme for our country.

I had an arguement with one of my pals, and this was about 2ish years ago. His claim was that the medical field was so bloated, it should have been the main focus of the POTUS. I told him that he had a crisis in the form of fiscal responsibility and should have focused on reforming taxes and entitlements and spending, not going after a slice of the pie, but the entire pie. Now, into BO's second term, he agrees with me.

Freedom is a wonderful thing, but, we are not the only free nation on this planet. We have, however, given ourselves enough freedom rope to hang ourselves with.

Post by **mad4datsun** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:38 am

We have not learned from the issues of the past, and we are repeating mistakes that other empires have made in their closing days. For example Rome and the bread and circus, that lead to a systemic lowering of social responsibility and resolve, now we have welfare, food stamps, and section 8 housing, all we are missing from the Roman system is free public games.

We have also overextended our reach with foreign policy, and we are currently posturing our self against China just like we did the Soviet Union, something that is being overlooked by many. Plus the use of drones to try and kill select people, but also kill many innocent civilians with them. This will breed a huge amount of "blowback" that has yet to be realized.

Finally, we have the Affordable Care Act, (also know as Obama Care) and gun control. These are very large issues, but neither of them should be the focus on a federal level. Same the war on drugs, and on our own citizens civil liberties. Our nation has done many things in the past 20 years that are almost blasphemous against the Magna Carta and people are only now starting to wake up and smell the coffee. But sadly we still have the people who only look at party politics and believe that those are the only things that matter. I will not peg blame on any one party, because the blame sits with both parties.

The solution that I propose sadly is an imperfect one, but sense we live in an imperfect world is the only one that I see working with at lease a slight degree of success. And that would be to do away with the winner take all system of elections for control of congress, and replace it with a proportional representation system, much like the German Bundestag where at the election people cast a vote for the party that closely represents their own values then based on the percentage of the vote each party gets an allotted number of seats. This way people who have been left in the cold without representation with the winner take all system will finally get it. While the issues of party politics will still be there, it will allow for more parties to gain seats that would otherwise be gobbled up by the two party system. This will raise political efficacy and start to give people who had no voice at least some more say in congress.

The fall of all great nations is not from without, it comes from within. - Oliver Stone (I think)

(sorry for the long post.)

Post by **370Z/28** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:49 am

I just want to say that these are excellent posts. I agree totally.

I want to add this too, since I am probably a good bit older than you guys. The SS and the trying to raise the retirement age is what upsets me the most. I have put into SS for 40 years. Now they talk about raising the retirement age to 70!!! I don't want to wait till I'm 70 to enjoy life. It isn't my fault that the government has mis-managed this fund. Give me back my money that I have put in it and quit giving it away to people that haven't put into it.

Post by **WDRacing** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:44 pm

There are many idea's to make SS sustainable without raising the retirement age to 70. I'm right there with ya, that is an awful idea. Perhaps not allocating funds towards items like the study of how rattle snakes will react to mechanical squirrels. That was an actual study that received $117,000 of my tax dollars.

Post by **bigbadberry3** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:09 pm

There is too much me me me and now now now.

Post by **370Z/28** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:13 pm

WDRacing wrote: Perhaps not allocating funds towards items like the study of how rattle snakes will react to mechanical squirrels. That was an actual study that received $117,000 of my tax dollars.

Post by **bigbadberry3** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:22 pm

370Z/28 wrote:
WDRacing wrote: Perhaps not allocating funds towards items like the study of how rattle snakes will react to mechanical squirrels. That was an actual study that received $117,000 of my tax dollars.

You're too hasty to judge.

Research is a necessity. What if during the study something for circuits was developed for the robots that improved artificial heart technology?

As more countries close the gap on the US, research really should be of even higher importance.

Post by **mad4datsun** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:32 pm

Berry, that is the largest jump in logic I have seen. . . Ever. While research should be a high priority, that experiment is not worthy of a federal grant.

Post by **bigbadberry3** » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:04 pm

mad4datsun wrote:Berry, that is the largest jump in logic I have seen. . . Ever. While research should be a high priority, that experiment is not worthy of a federal grant.

http://science.discovery.com/famous-sci ... ntions.htm

Fact can be stranger than fiction.

But thank you for the compliment.

Post by **mad4datsun** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:52 am

Rattle snakes vs mechanical squirrels is nothing like any of those. And all the accidental discoveries were mostly done by people researching something related to what they found.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:00 am

bigbadberry3 wrote:
You're too hasty to judge.

Research is a necessity. What if during the study something for circuits was developed for the robots that improved artificial heart technology?

As more countries close the gap on the US, research really should be of even higher importance.

I don't mind R&D. But you're missing a large part of the point we're all making. You can't just keep spending because of the possibility of some odd occurrence that "might" happen.

The Gov has to choose what it's going to spend it's money on. When you're upside down a trillion bucks, the programs that receive R&D funds have to be carefully considered. Don't assume I'm hasty or unaware of the big picture.

We've built robots that are designed for space exploration and the depths of the ocean, I seriously doubt we're going to discover any new circuit while building a robot squirrel.

Regardless, the point it clear. You don't add to the debt in order to complete this type of study.

Your stance shines a bright light on the reason we're divided. You simply don't seem to care how much money you take from my children and their children and so on...so long as the Gov is free to keep spending without any sort of responsibility and or regulation. If I'm wrong, please explain.

Post by **mad4datsun** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:04 am

Well I didn't want to put it that way....

Post by **bigbadberry3** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:11 pm

I think there needs to be more public & private cooperative endeavors. Especially in R & D.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:31 pm

bigbadberry3 wrote:I think there needs to be more public & private cooperative endeavors. Especially in R & D.

I agree. One thing about innovation though, the more automated we become, the fewer jobs there are.

Post by **BusyBadger** » Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:03 pm

bigbadberry3 wrote:
WDRacing wrote: Perhaps not allocating funds towards items like the study of how rattle snakes will react to mechanical squirrels. That was an actual study that received $117,000 of my tax dollars.
You're too hasty to judge.

Research is a necessity. What if during the study something for circuits was developed for the robots that improved artificial heart technology?

As more countries close the gap on the US, research really should be of even higher importance.

So, a needle in a haystack discovery is plausible and even warrants an illogical R&D expense...

bigbadberry3 wrote:
biggie wrote:Knew it would happen, probably even more than this, just happens they found this one did look it up on that site.

http://www.nysenate.gov/press-release/b ... s-gun-maps
Could of happened to any house.

As for the safe, what thief would NOT try to break into a safe of any sort

...yet you readily dismiss the high likelihood that a thief used the gun owner article to target a gun-owning household and just happened to stumble upon it by chance instead?

Patently obtuse.

Post by **mrmark** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:47 am

Here's something I wrote on another forum back in May of 2009.....and it still holds true, unfortunately.

What I’ve noticed throughout many of the political posts is that the forum population seems to represent the nation in general. The current Administration seems to attract 2 distinctly different audiences…..either you agree with everything they do, or you don’t……and defend it to the end. I know it’s not that clearly cut, but it sure seems that way.

So my question is; why do you think the current Administration has seemingly divided the country? Is it the President, is it Congress, is it a combination? I admit the divisiveness provides great debate and entertainment, but I’m worried about the long run and if it may eventually divide the country. I think, if at the end of his term, the economy turns around, we remain safe, and have no adverse impact from the war overseas, the gap will narrow. But for now, we seem to be a country divided…..remember, united we stand, divided we fall…..

The Most Polarizing President

By Michael Gerson
Wednesday, April 8, 2009

Who has been the most polarizing new president of recent times? Richard Nixon? Ronald Reagan? George W. Bush?

No, that honor belongs to Barack Obama. According to the Pew Research Center, the gap between Republican and Democratic approval ratings for Bush a few months into his first term was about 51 percentage points. For Obama, this partisan gap stands at 61 points. Obama has been a unifier, of sorts. He has united Democrats and united Republicans -- against each other.

The Pew report notes that this is the extension of a long-term trend. Decades ago, a majority of Democrats approved of Richard Nixon's job performance early in his first term. A majority of Republicans did the same for Jimmy Carter. But that has not been true for any president since.

Ron Brownstein, the author of "The Second Civil War," cites a variety of structural reasons for intensified division. There has been a "sorting out" of the political parties, making each more ideologically uniform. Long, nasty presidential campaigns stoke our differences. Media outlets have become more partisan. Ideological interest groups have proliferated. Congressional leaders have changed the rules, making it easier to impose party discipline.

But Obama was supposed to be the antidote to the poison of partisanship. During the presidential campaign, chief strategist David Axelrod told Brownstein, "If there's an enhanced Democratic majority, I think that he's going . . . to urge a special sense of responsibility to try and forge coalitions around these answers, not because we won't be able to force our will in many cases, but because, ultimately, effective governance requires it in the long term."

That makes last week's votes on the budget resolutions a landmark of ineffective governance. Not a single Republican in the House or Senate supported the bill, largely because the Democratic majo0rity forced its will. Republicans were flattened, not consulted. Democratic leaders talk of enacting controversial elements of the budget through the "reconciliation" process -- which would require 51 Senate votes, not the normal 60, for passage. Only in Washington would the word "reconciliation" refer to a form of partisan warfare.

Without Republican input or influence, the budget is a tax-and-spend caricature. Obama has complained of inheriting a $1.3 trillion deficit. According to economist Michael Boskin, Obama's proposals would add $6.5 trillion in debt over the next decade -- about $163,000 for every American taxpaying family.

I am not generally a deficit hawk. A government can run a responsible deficit in a growing economy -- and may have to run one to counteract an economic downturn. But Obama's proposed level of debt is irresponsible. It makes broad tax increases nearly inevitable. It expands our dependence on China, America's loan officer. And it creates pressure for the government to purchase or monetize debt, leading to inflation. No Republican, even of the moderate variety, could accept a budget that spends America into unsustainable debt by completely avoiding the setting of realistic priorities. And none in Congress did.

There is an argument in favor of political polarization. Franklin Roosevelt and Reagan, in their time, were polarizing presidents precisely because they were ambitious presidents. They believed that some national goals were worth the sacrifice of amity. A decisive leader is sometimes a divisive leader.

But Obama's polarizing approach challenges and changes the core of his political identity. His moderate manner and message appealed to a country weary of division and ambition -- a nation now asked to endure another round of both. But Obama's domestic agenda is also resoundingly typical -- as though he were some conventionally liberal backbench senator suddenly thrust into immense influence. Which, of course, he is.

It would have been relatively easy for President Obama to divide the Republican coalition, peeling off less-partisan Republicans with genuine outreach. Many Republicans were prepared to accept short-term deficits to stimulate the economy in exchange for long-term fiscal responsibility. Obama could have focused more narrowly on resolving the financial crisis -- the key to all economic recovery -- and delayed his ambitions on other issues to a more realistic time. In the process, he might have gotten some Republicans to share his political risks instead of nursing grievances on the sidelines.

Polarization in American politics has its own disturbing momentum, aided by some strident Republican voices. But that does not require a president to make it worse. And it is a sad, unnecessary shame that Barack Obama, the candidate of unity, has so quickly become another source of division.

I think there has been polarization in the past, but the current environment is infinitely worst due to rigid ideology. The current Admin has done everything possible to divide the nation and created an "US vs THEM" mentality. Dems vs. GOP, rich vs. poor, have vs. have not, pro-life vs. pro-choice, gun owners vs. gun restrictors, advocates of freedom vs. advocates of Gov, believers in the Constitution vs. those who think the Constitution is irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, this is not the first time all these issues have been in the forefront, but it is the first time that I can remember an Admin using all these issues for political gain and to destroy the other party.

Post by **telcoman** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:37 pm

You left out one important fact

The past four years the stated goal of the GOP was to make President Obama a one term president.

Payback is a b$tch

Telcoman

Post by **szh** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:33 pm

telcoman wrote:The past four years the stated goal of the GOP was to make President Obama a one term president.

Yup, they did fail to do that. Most unfortunate.

Z

Post by **szh** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:36 pm

telcoman wrote:Payback is a b$tch

But, here above is the problem demonstrated so clearly by the Dem Party.

"Now I can be the bigger arsehole".

Figures. They may succeed at that too.

Z

Post by **mrmark** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:05 am

telcoman wrote:You left out one important fact

The past four years the stated goal of the GOP was to make President Obama a one term president.

Payback is a b$tch

Telcoman

I love that....I think it was mentioned more times on replay by the mainstream media than actually occurred. Payback...hmmmm....this is one of the reasons why we have such division.....everything is political brinkmanship. For the last 4 years and now that he has a second term, that’s BO’s attitude too. It’s his way or he will demonize you. We have a democratic based Government based on the Constitution, but he seems to forget this and bends it more towards a dictatorship.

Post by **telcoman** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:48 pm

mrmark wrote:
telcoman wrote:You left out one important fact

The past four years the stated goal of the GOP was to make President Obama a one term president.

Payback is a b$tch

Telcoman
.hmmmm....this is one of the reasons why we have such division.....everything is political brinkmanship. For the last 4 years and now that he has a second term, that’s BO’s attitude too. It’s his way or he will demonize you. We have a democratic based Government based on the Constitution, but he seems to forget this and bends it more towards a dictatorship.

Except for the first 4 years Barack Obama tried to work with the other side but with their goal to refuse to work with him and only try to make him a one term president that attitude has now backfired.

Having lost two presidential elections in a row the GOP with their refusal to have a clue as to exactly why they lost are well on their way to losing a third.

Keep talking about abortion, contraception, pissing off women, Hispanics,gays, refusal of mental health background checks and large capacity magazines, keep restricting early voting days and hours and watch what happens during the next election.

Keep sending money to Karl Rove.

He is good at pissing your money away

And after Americans discover there will be no more Saturday mail delivery and it was a majority of Republicans that voted and forced the post office to fund 75 years of retirement benefits in a 10 year period I
doubt if any of those voters will choose the GOP

Telcoman

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:17 pm

3 more years of no recovery will insure you idiots are out of the race Howie. Keep thinking you're on top.

Post by **mrmark** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:27 pm

telcoman wrote:Except for the first 4 years Barack Obama tried to work with the other side but with their goal to refuse to work with him and only try to make him a one term president that attitude has now backfired.Telcoman

....and how long did it take before BO sat down with the GOP leadership after the first election? And didn't BO say "I won".....meaning it's his way or the highway.

telcoman wrote:Having lost two presidential elections in a row the GOP with their refusal to have a clue as to exactly why they lost are well on their way to losing a third.

And why did they lose....weak candidates, poor messaging, mainstream media that basically works for the WH and carries their water.....maybe that's why? Let's face it, the Dems are masterful politicians. Both parties do it, but the Dems have mastered the art of deception, the flip flop, hypocrisy, and flat out lying.

telcoman wrote:Keep talking about abortion, contraception, pissing off women, Hispanics,gays, refusal of mental health background checks and large capacity magazines, keep restricting early voting days and hours and watch what happens during the next election.

Ah….keep restrictions for early voting like the WH denied for our troops abroad…..

Let’s analyze what you said…..free abortions……free contraceptives…..free healthcare……amnesty and benefits for illegals……hmm….is there a pattern in there?
…and the whole 2nd amendment discussion….let’s pass more laws because the 2,000 gun laws don’t work. Why not get to the heart of the problems first like what to do with the millions of guns already in circulation? Oh, and when was the last time a criminal said “I need to fill out a background check before I legally buy the gun that I’m going to use to kill someone”….yeah, right….

telcoman wrote:Keep sending money to Karl Rove.

Is Karl Rove running for office? I must have missed that…..

telcoman wrote:He is good at pissing your money away

I think BO has Karl Rove beat by Trillions of dollars….how’s all that money doing to create jobs sent to all BO’s donors and cronies…..and how are all those green companies doing? Talk about pissing away money but the difference is Karl Rove pisses away money willingly given to his PAC. BO takes our money from us and then pisses it away. Big difference, eh…..

telcoman wrote:And after Americans discover there will be no more Saturday mail delivery and it was a majority of Republicans that voted and forced the post office to fund 75 years of retirement benefits in a 10 year period I doubt if any of those voters will choose the GOP

I think Americans would be more pissed if they found out who was really responsible for FANNIE and FREDDIE going under which caused the financial crisis….but you’ll never hear that in the media……

Post by **seymore4** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:26 am

The nation sure is divided... between the people that think they deserve govt handouts... and the people that PAY FOR THEM.

Post by **mrmark** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:16 am

seymore4 wrote:The nation sure is divided... between the people that think they deserve govt handouts... and the people that PAY FOR THEM.

The "Fundamental Transformation" is almost complete.....

Post by **telcoman** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:18 pm

WDRacing wrote:3 more years of no recovery will insure you idiots are out of the race Howie. Keep thinking you're on top.

Speaking of idiots as long as there are people like this on your side I don't think so

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/0 ... ll-be-back

And if and when he does come back he will drive more voters to the Dems

Telcoman

Post by **Ace2cool** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:48 pm

And when liberal budget cuts make stuff like this happen, how does that fare for you?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fK4j4fb ... ture=share[/youtube]

Or this nice combo?

http://articles.dailypress.com/2013-02- ... -navy-base

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/01/22 ... criticism/

I wonder how much of that reactor a couple of F-16's could have purchased, at $18.8 Million apiece? Keep in mind, we aren't even sure whose side Egypt is on nowadays. Muslim brotherhood anyone?

Post by **mrmark** » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:54 pm

telcoman wrote:
WDRacing wrote:3 more years of no recovery will insure you idiots are out of the race Howie. Keep thinking you're on top.
Speaking of idiots as long as there are people like this on your side I don't think so

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/0 ... ll-be-back

And if and when he does come back he will drive more voters to the Dems

Telcoman

What does this have to do with the topic? Why do you post totally unrelated material to the thread? Is d!ck Morris running for office or something? How is he dividing the country? He has nothing to do with the political climate.....that you can look to our imperial leader and his chronies.... Try keeping on the topic please.....

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