A Cultural Divide

[telcoman]

Perhaps this might help some living in Rural America understand

New York Times

August 27, 2008Newcomers Adjust, Eventually, to New York By CARA BUCKLEYSometime over the course of a person’s first year in New York, there usually comes that moment. It can happen in the first days or weeks, or after 10 months. It can happen repeatedly, or without people noticing, at least not at first.

Newcomers suddenly realize either that the city is not working for them or that they are inexorably becoming part of it, or both. They find themselves walking and talking faster.

The subway begins to make sense. Patience is whittled away; sarcasm often ensues. New friends are made, routines established, and city life begins to feel like second nature. In other words, newcomers find themselves becoming New Yorkers.

“It can be lonely, very lonely, and I knew I would find it hard,” said Lisa Phin, 25, who moved to New York from Dallas in late May, and is building a network of friends through events listed on Web sites like Meetup.com. “But if you can stick it out for one year, you’re home free.”

Rebecca Thompson’s moment happened shortly after she moved to the city in January. On a visit home to Oklahoma, Ms. Thompson, 24, found herself flummoxed when a hostess at a party and everyone else there were inexplicably acting so nice.

Gabrielle Sirkin’s moment came on the heels of Thanksgiving Day last year, five months after she moved to New York. Every day until then, she felt as if she was doing battle daily with the city. But suddenly, on a night flight to Kennedy International Airport from California, Ms. Sirkin, 26, caught sight of the glittering skyline, and, to her great surprise, felt a surge of joy.

“I was really caught off guard by my reaction,” she said. “But I could see Central Park, and the lights on the Chrysler Building, and I wasn’t looking at it as a tourist. I was looking at it as though I was home.”

Ian Ingersoll’s moment happened within weeks of his move from Seattle to New York last fall. He suddenly found himself exasperated by slow moving pedestrians, and, like a true New Yorker, began darting around them instead.

“That was when I realized I was getting in sync with the city,” Mr. Ingersoll, 25, said.

For newcomers, there is often great comfort in these flashes of recognition, which can serve as signposts along the often arduous path to integration with New York.

For Mr. Ingersoll, the sense of getting aligned with New York felt like balm, because the city, for all of its exquisite appeal, ended up nearly breaking his spirit.

Mr. Ingersoll painstakingly saved $8,000 over a year and a half in Seattle, working three jobs to prepare for life in the city of his dreams. He burned through it in no time when he could not find full-time work. While he had admired New Yorkers’ famed acerbic attitude from afar, he found the brusqueness wounding once here. Making friends also proved hard; Mr. Ingersoll spent last Christmas wandering alone through Central Park.

But slowly, more than halfway through that crucial first year, life is brightening for Mr. Ingersoll, who is an actor. A close friend moved here, too, and now shares Mr. Ingersoll’s basement apartment in Union City, N.J. Mr. Ingersoll found a full-time job and has an audition or two lined up.

“I knew it wasn’t going to be easy — it was something I had to do,” said Mr. Ingersoll, who grew up in Alaska. “I am in love with the city. And what relationship is good if you don’t work for it?”

Young people have flocked to New York City by the tens of thousands for generations, to chase their dreams and test their mettle. And they continue to come in strong numbers. In 2006, nearly 77,000 people in their 20s had been in the city for a year or less, according to the annual study by the United States Census Bureau for that year.

But for many, the thrill of arrival is often tempered by the sinking realization of what an alienating place the city can be, especially for those who are not wealthy or who do not have a pre-existing network of friends. Nothing comes easily, even if one can get past the dauntingly high cost of living. The subway maze seems indecipherable. People are everywhere, but ignore each other on the street. Friends might live in distant neighborhoods, and seeing them often requires booking time, like an appointment, weeks in advance.

“Any time I want to see someone and catch up with someone, everyone takes out their BlackBerrys and says, ‘This weekend isn’t good; how about three weeks from now?’ “ said Ms. Sirkin, who moved to New York from Milan in June 2007. “How can you form really good and solid relationships with people if you see them once a month?”

Not every newcomer has trouble adjusting. Alexis Vuatrin, 27, from France, said that New York fit him from the start. The skyline, the bustle and the taxis seemed familiar, thanks to movies and TV shows, and he quickly fell into a sprawling group of French friends. Then again, Mr. Vuatrin had already lived in Geneva, Paris and Hildesheim, near Hanover, in Germany.

And by comparison, he said, “The people in the street here are so nice, and smiling.”

But nice is a relative thing. Boris Chen, 22, moved to New York from California early in July for a job with a finance company in Midtown. He is still trying to stomach what feels to him like a whole new brand of rude.

Mr. Chen also had to get over his lingering childhood fear of taxi drivers, which he believed came from movies. “I always thought any time I got into taxis they were going to kidnap me, and I was going to die,” he said.

That fear is behind him, largely because Mr. Chen refuses to indulge in it, and he is tackling city life systematically. He is cultivating friendships with people he met while apartment hunting on Craigslist. Through them, he has learned valuable insider city tips, like what kind of subway pass to buy (30-day unlimited), and whether he should tip deliverymen (yes) or doormen (it depends).

“Learning the transportation is sort of what I’m working on right now,” said Mr. Chen, who lives with two roommates on the Upper East Side. “I’m pretty good with the subways now, but at night it’s a little weird, and I don’t really know how that works.”

Ms. Phin already finds herself getting annoyed more easily, even though she arrived from Texas only two months ago. The culture at her job, as a marketer for an engineering company, was a lot more abrasive than she had expected. “Nothing is sugarcoated,” she said. And so, she is finding herself growing a tougher skin. “I thought I’d bring my niceness with me,” she said, “but already I feel an edge developing. Because you need to, to deal.”

Ms. Thompson, a native of Oklahoma who moved from Chicago six months ago, has adjusted to New York life relatively easily, she said, largely because she interned here a few summers ago. She also has friends from college in the city, and has made new ones through her church, St. Paul the Apostle.

But the city has changed Ms. Thompson, who lives in Hell’s Kitchen near the tourist-clogged streets of Times Square. “I’ve definitely become the pushy New Yorker who has to get around everyone on the sidewalk,” she said.

During a recent week back home in Oklahoma, Ms. Thompson said she found herself holding doors for others, but she was transformed again immediately upon her return. “I had a horrible flight,” she said, “and I snapped back.”

There also usually comes a time, early on, when newcomers must accept that the city is a power greater than they are.

“My friend said, ‘The city abuses you, and you just have to abuse it back,’ ” said Ms. Sirkin, who grew up in California and moved to New York reluctantly, after having visa problems in Italy last year. “The subway doesn’t work in the morning, and you’re a half-hour late for work, and that’s not in your control. You have to find ways of surviving.”

Ms. Sirkin’s friend Sarah Kasbeer also recalled being consumed by a common strain of existential New York City angst: the sense that no matter where one is, something better is happening — the real New York is in full swing — somewhere else.

“When I first got here, I’d go out in the city with people I worked with, and I felt I was missing something,” said Ms. Kasbeer, who moved to New York from Milan in 2006. I was going to clubs in Chelsea, the Lower East Side, things I wouldn’t do now.”

But sometime during her first year, she stopped trying so hard. “I just realized that I didn’t need to find ‘it,’ that my place in the city would fall into place,” she said. “Now I don’t make an effort; I roll with things. It’s not just the city, it’s yourself that you have to deal with as well.”

Ms. Sirkin continued to resist feeling part of New York long after her revelatory experience last Thanksgiving. And, yet she has begun to come around, taking acting and photography classes, and forging new friendships. It took a year, she said, but now, at last, she is starting to feel connected with what she describes as “this terrifying city.”

“Every day you encounter situations where you have to step out of your safety zone, and it’s really kind of a self-discovery experience,” she said. “I see myself fighting it, but I also I see myself, every day, becoming a New Yorker.”

I realized this disconnect many years ago after being drafted into the US Army.Basic training in South Carolina, MP training in Georgia, time in Germany and Fort Lewis Washington made me realize just how great living on the east coast is.

Telcoman

[smockers83]

Understand what? I've been to NYC before for a couple of weeks. I've gotten myself around Chicago, LA and San Diego and their surrounding areas. I know what the city's like. I like being able to go places and know people there or have people know who I am, people who will say hello to me as I walk by them, etc. I like being able to drive 10 miles in 10 minutes instead of an hour. Its so much less stressful and peaceful, which is healthier for you.

Its not a matter of understanding, its a matter of personal preference.

I currently live in a city--not a large one, but a city nonetheless--but I try and keep myself rural in that I still have to drive to get into town, work is just minutes away, and I have a quiet neighborhood. I like the city life of being able to have many options of things to do, like go to the clubs/bars, the sporting events, concerts, etc. But that's also part of my age. Eventually, I would like to move back into an actual rural area of peace and quiet at or near retirement. Some place in the Rockies in the mountains and a lake.

[AZhitman]

Dumb post.

I live in the 5th largest city in the US.

Maybe if you'd lived all over the country, you'd comprehend complex geographic differences and subtle regionaly-influenced behaviors.

My Dad's side of the family is fronm S. Jersey - they have the same attitude, makes me puke.

This is a typical conversation: "You should look into this city, you should consider looking for a job in that city, oh, the schools in this city are great...."

And in my head, I'm saying:

"STFU. I've lived in 8 states and visited 41... you've never left NJ."

[Beancooker]

Perhaps this might help some living in Rural America understand

New York Times

Ohh, another wall of text.

We are on an internet forum. I don't think that the "Rural American's" you are speaking of, will be viewing this.

[themadscientist]

Yeah we are too busy clinging to "god and guns" remember?

[OriginalWheelman]

This is exactly why I hate New Yorkers. Everyone is a huge DB too everyone else, and they think it's normal. Everyone is pissed, everyone is miserable. Why do people like it? It's because you can vent your frustrations to the people who piss you off. The problem? No one is afraid to do it to you. It's like the people who always fight, but rally together if someone else picks on the person they fight with. It's retarded. I prefer living in the country, where we don;t piss each other off in the first place. The more time I spent in the city, the clearer it came to be that I did not want to stay there. Give me trees, privacy, and enough land to hunt.

[HashiriyaS14]

Honestly, I am of the mind that the primary divide in this country isn't between liberal and conservative, it's between urban and rural.

I live in the suburbs, technically, but being within 20 minutes of a top-10 metro area city is, IMO, the same as "living in the city". The entire area has that same character.

[szh]

Perhaps this might help some living in Rural America understand

On the contrary, since I have lived in both urban America and rural America, I can assure you this urban-rural "differentiation" posture is so silly. It only underscores the limited and blind and egotistical thinking that urbanites seem to have on the topic.

If urbanites are so dang smart, why don't they fix the following problems:

1. Urban blight. The graffiti, boarded up homes and residences, sad bumpy roads, weeds growing on the sidewalks, etc.

2. Racism. Remember the Boston bussing fiasco? In the heart of liberal, urban America!! Horrors!

3. High crime rates. When I lived in rural America, I left my door open when I went to work - unlike the monitored alarm system I have to now have here in San Jose. My wife has to bring in the postal mail every day right after the postman delivers ... because we have a mail theft problem here.

4. Congestion and pollution. Need I expand on that?

I could go on and on.

So, please don't preach about the wonders of urban living and the so-called smart people who live there ... those of us who have experienced both know better. Urban Americans are neither smarter nor are they enjoying a perfectly wonderful better life, compared to rural American.

Z

[OriginalWheelman]

On the contrary, since I have lived in both urban America and rural America, I can assure you this urban-rural "differentiation" posture is so silly. It only underscores the limited and blind and egotistical thinking that urbanites seem to have on the topic.

If urbanites are so dang smart, why don't they fix the following problems:

1. Urban blight. The graffiti, boarded up homes and residences, sad bumpy roads, weeds growing on the sidewalks, etc.

2. Racism. Remember the Boston bussing fiasco? In the heart of liberal, urban America!! Horrors!

3. High crime rates. When I lived in rural America, I left my door open when I went to work - unlike the monitored alarm system I have to now have here in San Jose. My wife has to bring in the postal mail every day right after the postman delivers ... because we have a mail theft problem here.

4. Congestion and pollution. Need I expand on that?

I could go on and on.

So, please don't preach about the wonders of urban living and the so-called smart people who live there ... those of us who have experienced both know better. Urban Americans are neither smarter nor are they enjoying a perfectly wonderful better life, compared to rural American.

Z

Almost everyone that leaves the country for the city comes back. That should say something there.

[HashiriyaS14]

On the contrary, since I have lived in both urban America and rural America, I can assure you this urban-rural "differentiation" posture is so silly. It only underscores the limited and blind and egotistical thinking that urbanites seem to have on the topic.

If urbanites are so dang smart, why don't they fix the following problems:

1. Urban blight. The graffiti, boarded up homes and residences, sad bumpy roads, weeds growing on the sidewalks, etc.

2. Racism. Remember the Boston bussing fiasco? In the heart of liberal, urban America!! Horrors!

3. High crime rates. When I lived in rural America, I left my door open when I went to work - unlike the monitored alarm system I have to now have here in San Jose. My wife has to bring in the postal mail every day right after the postman delivers ... because we have a mail theft problem here.

4. Congestion and pollution. Need I expand on that?

I could go on and on.

So, please don't preach about the wonders of urban living and the so-called smart people who live there ... those of us who have experienced both know better. Urban Americans are neither smarter nor are they enjoying a perfectly wonderful better life, compared to rural American.

Z

Neither one is better than the other and anyone who argues to the contrary is a simpleton.

Like most things in life, each alternative has aspects that appeal to different people. Hopefully no one's arguing that "The city is better and the people there are smarter", because that would be positively asinine, as would be the reverse argument.

Cities have a greater variety of jobs, more cultural events and resources, more restaurants and things like that, et cetera.

Rural areas have unspoiled beauty, lower crime, more peace and quiet, and increased safety.

[OriginalWheelman]

The city was nice for somethings. It's nice to go to a restaurant that isn't Denny's at 3am. It's generally cheaper to live in the city and that is both a good and bad thing. The lower cost of living attracts lower income people who are more likely to commit crimes, mostly theft and vandalism. There is generally more work, and closer to home. Living in the country I have almost always driven to the next town, or the city for work. Each has their ups and downs. I agree with you, it's totally a personal preference. I like looking out my window and seeing green, not asphalt. I value privacy and safety over convince and cost. That's why I live in the country.

[HashiriyaS14]

It's generally cheaper to live in the city and that is both a good and bad thing.

Depends wildly on which city and which part of it.

Generally though, prices are much much higher on a per square foot basis in the city than in rural areas.

A 3,000 square foot townhouse in Georgetown will cost you something like two million bucks. What does 3,000sf cost in rural Kansas.

Rural and Suburban aren't the same thing. Sometimes the suburbs can be more expensive than the city, but the suburbs are *not* "rural".

Rural means outside of a major MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area).

[szh]

Neither one is better than the other and anyone who argues to the contrary is a simpleton.

I agree with this and the other points in your post, of course. Each has its pros and cons - some people will like one over the other. For sure!

But, some people/posts here are stating that the reason that Rural America votes Republican and is conservative, is because they are too dumb to do otherwise. And, urbanites must be brighter, because somehow rural America does not "get it".

That is the simplistic and insulting characterization that I object to. And I will take to task every time I see it.

Z

[HashiriyaS14]

But, some people/posts here are stating that the reason that Rural America votes Republican and is conservative, is because they are too dumb to do otherwise. And, urbanites must be brighter, because somehow rural America does not "get it".

Ah, I guess I missed where that point got made. Whoever made it is an idiot and you are definitely in the right to deride it.

That is quite obviously ludicrous. Rural America votes the way it does clearly because it has a very unique set of issues facing it as opposed to urban America.

-In rural America, not being able to own guns is like not being able to own a wrench. It's a tool that you often need, and to have it be outlawed is totally silly.

-In rural America, strict vehicle emissions standards don't quite apply as the density of vehicles isn't great enough to make any impact. People NEED their big pickups in rural areas, and urban CA's CAFE requirements shouldn't mean that people on Wyoming Ranches can't drive F150s.

-Rural areas DO tend to be a little more homogeneous than urban areas, and thus laws that seem to force diversity (i.e. affirmative action) come across as less than necessary because minorities are a much much tinier segment of the population. Additionally, it *does* make a more sense to allow, for instance, prayer in schools in rural areas, as 100% of the population of a lot of these towns is quite probably Christian, even of the same denomination in cases. Obviously, in urban areas, this will never be the case (my *public* suburban high school had 102 nationalities represented and some 60+ distinct religions).

It is for these and many other reasons that I believe that rural and urban areas in the United States need to be increasingly looked at from very different perspectives. The red state/blue state divide is an almost PERFECT division of the nation over who has more or less than a certain percentage of their population in rural environs. There is a REASON for this, and it's not that one contingent or the other is stupid, it's just because life is very different in each type of area.

EDIT: I still want to see Wheelman's justification for how the city is less expensive than the country. I work in real estate and I know he's got his head up his a$$ on this one, I just want to know what info he's referencing, lol.

[szh]

Ah, I guess I missed where that point got made. Whoever made it is an idiot and you are definitely in the right to deride it.

Not in this thread ... other ones. Those apparently triggered the first post in this thread here - along with the lead-off commentary line.

Z

[OriginalWheelman]

EDIT: I still want to see Wheelman's justification for how the city is less expensive than the country. I work in real estate and I know he's got his head up his a$$ on this one, I just want to know what info he's referencing, lol.

Well around here an apartment that goes for $350 / month in the city goes for about $650 outside of the city, and when you get out to the sticks, about $450. In the city it is feasible to live without a car. That can save you hundreds a month. I'm not talking about living in NYC, DC, or LA, as those are so in demand that property values are higher. Buffalo is a city, but it's hardly in demand. To be fair, property values here a way different than the rest of the country.

[smockers83]

As for it being cheaper in the city compared to living rural, in general that just isn't true. An apartment in the city I'm at right now compared to a similar apartment in the rural town I'm from will be upwards of $100 cheaper/month. Rents on houses are significantly cheaper as well, to the tune of hundreds of dollars on a person-to-person basis.

I also remember reading an article on MSN where a MSN Money editor wrote about how her and her family moved out of NYC to live rural and she talked about all the money they were saving but they didn't have the luxuries of the city.

[HashiriyaS14]

Well around here an apartment that goes for $350 / month in the city goes for about $650 outside of the city, and when you get out to the sticks, about $450. In the city it is feasible to live without a car. That can save you hundreds a month. I'm not talking about living in NYC, DC, or LA, as those are so in demand that property values are higher. Buffalo is a city, but it's hardly in demand. To be fair, property values here a way different than the rest of the country.

Holy crap, $350/month? That'll buy you *MAYBE* a parking space in Dupont Circle or Georgetown, lol.

Yeah, I guess it's different in non-top-10 Metro Area cities. I was paying $2400/mo for 850 square feet here, lol.

Anyway, the suburbs are not, technically, "out of the city" in the sense that they can be considered rural. Rural really means outside of an MSA (Metropolitan Statistical Area). Anyone can look up online whether or not they're in an MSA or whether they're truly in a rural area.

This is also why it doesn't make much sense to define "city" as being within the city limits, as the majority of people that work there probably commute from outside the city limits. Hence the MSA or metro area, which should really be what gets considered to determine the size of a city.

[Jager]

so let me get this straight, after living a period of time in new york you become... an *******? and that makes you better then a rural person?

sorry i was born less then an hour from NY, im glad I live in virginia and was raised down here, there is something to be said for respect and values that new york and other metropolitan areas dont instill in their people in day to day life.

[Bwana]

To return to the original topic, what exactly does

Perhaps this might help some living in Rural America understand

........

Telcoman

refer to?

[Marenta]

To return to the original topic, what exactly does refer to?

Perhaps he's trying to make all of us unintelligent people understand why people from major metropolitan areas, especially NY, seem like such jerks?

Personally, if you're worried about missing a subway car.. wake up 15 minutes early. Or, don't stay out late drinking with all your buddies so damned much. But, since I guess everybody in NY loves to sleep and never wake up in a respectable amount of time to get to work, that means that everybody in NY is irresponsible. Yay! I love leaping to illogical conclusions, don't you?

[rn79870]

Holy crap, $350/month? That'll buy you *MAYBE* a parking space in Dupont Circle or Georgetown, lol.

Yeah, I guess it's different in non-top-10 Metro Area cities. I was paying $2400/mo for 850 square feet here, lol.

I thought the rents were bad around here. $1200 for a 2 bedroom, + utilities is typical. Unless you get too hear the beach, then it's $1200+ per week for a tiny little place.

[telcoman]

Perhaps he's trying to make all of us unintelligent people understand why people from major metropolitan areas, especially NY, seem like such jerks?

Personally, if you're worried about missing a subway car.. wake up 15 minutes early. Or, don't stay out late drinking with all your buddies so damned much. But, since I guess everybody in NY loves to sleep and never wake up in a respectable amount of time to get to work, that means that everybody in NY is irresponsible. Yay! I love leaping to illogical conclusions, don't you?

Sorry you all missed my point in posting that article.

Despite all of the hassels of living in New York City it continues to draw newcomers from all over the world. Whatever their politics were where they came from, they tend to change over time generally more liberal and understanding the many different cultures here. Not to forget the great variaty of food.

BTW one bedroom apt in Manhattan. $2400/ month and up

Less than $200k year is tough if you've got heavy student loans to pay off as well.

Telcoman

[Bwana]

Whatever their politics were where they came from, they tend to change over time generally more liberal and understanding the many different cultures here.

So you're point is that melding cultures produces liberal political viewpoints?

[AZhitman]

Sorry you all missed my point in posting that article.

Despite all of the hassels of living in New York City it continues to draw newcomers from all over the world.

BTW one bedroom apt in Manhattan. $2400/ month and up

I think everyone got your point. Anyone who doesn't live in a filthy, overcrowded, crime-infested metropolitan area is automatically less-informed. We get it. And you're confused.

Little Rock, Arkansas continues to draw newcomers from all over the world as well. That statement means nothing.

In fact, the fastest-growing areas in the US are FAR, FAR from NY. I live in one of them (in the top 10).

Your posts would be a lot better received if you'd think first.

FWIW, anyone paying $2400/mo for a one bedroom aparrtment is borderline mentally retarded in my book.

$2400/mo will buy you a 5000-sqft luxury home just outside of Phoenix, in one of the hottest job markets in the US, and still leave enough for the payments on a new G37 Coupe.

[szh]

To return to the original topic, what exactly does

refer to?

The OP wanted to show us why he has been harping (in other threads) that people living in Urban America are smart and rational intellectuals ... compared to the dumb and irrational hicks who live in Rural America.

Z

[AZhitman]

... compared to the dumb and irrational hicks who live in Rural America.

Z

Don't forget those ignorant immigrants!

[szh]

Don't forget those ignorant immigrants!

Uh, yes ... I fergit about those dayum furriners!

Z

[smockers83]

One of my good friends during college was from NYC. Once I really got to know her, I started to think she was partially delusional and our friendship started to suffer because of it. A lot of it was because she grew up in NYC, I grew up in rural America because a lot of it had to deal with forms of respect, ways of life, etc. If there was a small problem because of someone else, she would let you know. But if it was a problem because of her, she wouldn't have it. It made for difficult situations and a lot of people being mad at her for various reasons.

I was dating her roommate, we were talking quietly over dinner she had made for me, she was in her room studying. She had the nerve to tell us to be quiet. My ex was like she does have a right to study in a quiet place and I told her we also have the right to talk and that she could go somewhere else to study if she wanted quiet. It was very disrespectful for her to tell the two of us to be quiet over our dinner.

Another instance, I was driving to a friend's house and I wanted to park on the side of the street opposite of the house so I had to turn around. Here was our conversation.

"Why don't you just park in the driveway?""Why would I park in someone else's driveway?""Why not?""Because you don't park in someone else's driveway unless they specifically tell you or unless you can't park on the road," due to rules or like my road, its just wide enough for one car, but we have lots of driveway space so its a given you park in our driveway, "its just a matter of respect.""I don't get it."

My experience, and this doesn't just go for people from the NY metro area, is that people from the city tend to not really think about what they're doing, and this goes for everything. They don't think of possible consequences, respect, or anything, they just do what serves them best with no thought about others.