'93 240 KA24DE Won't start (New cyl. head)

[VanNelson]

Got it all put back together, and it cranks, but doesn't start.What is the general checklist of things I should look for as to why it wouldn't start.Could it be a ground?Also, I wasn't able to get my timing chain sprocket marks lined up right, because of some problems (see other topic "Cam sprockets not installing right") so I lined the #1 cam lobes 180 degree opposite of each other, facing outward. The crankshaft was at TDC, as was the distributor. What could it be? If I could get some suggestions, i'll try them out. Otherwise, i'm tired of working on the car, and i'll send it to a mechanic.

[KASilvia90]

Wow sounds like your in the exact same boat I am in. I am beginning to wonder if there isnt some secret "new head" button lol.

Are you getting a tach signal while it is cranking (over 250rpms iirc)FuelSpark

Your ignition timing could be off also

[12Ounce]

I know its a different animal, but I'm in the process of buttoning up a KA24E. I'm a newbie, ... this is the first chain driven overhead cam engine I've ever overhauled.

When I got to the point of installing the head, I backed off (in proper sequence) all the rocker shaft hold down bolts. This does two things: 1) relieves stress on head for head-bolt torqueing, and 2) eliminates any valve to piston contact. (I'm not even sure this is an "interference" engine, .... but why not assume it is.)

I left these hold-down bolts loose until all the camshaft timing and front cover work, including the distributor and oil-pump, was completed. This helped to easily get the cam, crank, and distributor in proper relationship.

Then the hold-down bolts were torqued in proper sequence.

[VanNelson]

I know its a different animal, but I'm in the process of buttoning up a KA24E. I'm a newbie, ... this is the first chain driven overhead cam engine I've ever overhauled.

When I got to the point of installing the head, I backed off (in proper sequence) all the rocker shaft hold down bolts. This does two things: 1) relieves stress on head for head-bolt torqueing, and 2) eliminates any valve to piston contact. (I'm not even sure this is an "interference" engine, .... but why not assume it is.)

I left these hold-down bolts loose until all the camshaft timing and front cover work, including the distributor and oil-pump, was completed. This helped to easily get the cam, crank, and distributor in proper relationship.

Then the hold-down bolts were torqued in proper sequence.

KA24DE's have DOHC, which both the cams sit over both rows of head bolts, so the cams have to be installed after the head

I'm getting spark on all four cylinders.

#1: 125 lbs.#2: 110 lbs. #3: 125 lbs.#4: 125 lbs.

I understand that number 2 cylinders rings may be worn, but that can't be what's causing it to not start, could it?

As for tach readings, i'm getting 0 through all the cranking - no mov't at all.

I can smell fuel in the cylinders, though. It must be getting gas. I've got the check engine light on, so my next step for tomorrow would be to check out the engine codes for it. I'd work on it tonight, but the bay area is experiencing a nightly cold snap, and tomorrows my day off.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

[LayNLow240]

wow, did you do that test with the throttle at 100% open? thoes are awefully low. i got about 150ish all across mine. add a little oil to each cyl and test again and see what #'s you get.

well since your getting spark and fuel, its gotta be timing unless your getting fuel at the wrong time.pull your codes and post what they are.

[VanNelson]

Well, I had my brother work the ignition and gas, and he doesn't know anything about cars, he may not have held the gas fully. Guess I didn't explain it well enough. Yeah, I put some oil in #2 and the numbers shot up (190 or so).

Pulling the codes are gonna be a pita, because I don't have the computer, so I have to do it with the blinking lights method.

All I can say about the timing is... well...try and try again. I couldn't get it the first time... might as well try again. Maybe somethings changed and i'll be able to align the marks on the sprockets.

More to come tomorrow

[Chezedik]

Those results seem fine for a KA24DE w/o WOT, but is the comp kicking on? I would guess that one of the bolt down grounds on the back of the head is supposed to feed heat to the comp on 36, IIRC. Point is that is you have all of the other real probs solved, you should have spank, unless you lost it all. Check spark, then check to see if the comp is coming on, then I will advise.

I am an expert on the KA24DE injection sys, and if you check those, and you have no love, you let me know.

[VanNelson]

Yea, i'm getting spark on all four cylinders. I tested by holding the spark plug near the head, and they all sparked off the head.

Those results seem fine for a KA24DE w/o WOT, but is the comp kicking on? I would guess that one of the bolt down grounds on the back of the head is supposed to feed heat to the comp on 36, IIRC.

Uh... could you reiterate?

Also, I went through, and there aren't any loose wires or grounds hanging around; i'm pretty confident they're all plugged into their rightful place.

Also, there's a small vacuum hose that I left unattached under the throttle body, and the three vacuum hoses behind the head I didn't know what order they plugged in, so I just plugged them back in using my best judgement. But I doubt these hoses have anything to do with the car not even starting.

As for injection, when I pull the plugs out, I can smell fuel (or at least something rank similar to fuel). Coolant kinda smells rank like fuel too, doesn't it? I remember when it was running, it had coolant problems, and I could smell the coolant. I thought at first it was gas. But I DOUBT coolant could get into the cylinders in any way, especialy since its a brand new head.

How do I check if the computer is coming on? I don't suspect it would sound anything like the old Macintosh startup trumpet sound...

[Chezedik]

Unless you have a seriously warped head, a coolant leak will not cause your car not to start. If you have spark, then your comp is kicking on, hence pin 36

The vac under the TB is called port vac, and you need to figure it out, but it will act like bad cam timing and will start under full Throttle, but will run like ****.

Have you ran any of the FSM Checks?

[VanNelson]

Checked the codes and got only a 55 for a "No Malfunction".

I guess my next step would be to try and redo the timing by popping the valve cover off, cranking the engine to TDC, resetting the cams, and resetting the distributor. (If possible, read my other thread on why I couldn't before zerothread/219784)

I also heard while browsing the forums that you might also have to set the timing on the fuel pump, or something related to fuel... any ideas on that?

I'm going to go check all the fuses and relays real quick.

The car's been sitting for about a year bare block, w/ no cyl head. Maybe the gas gummed up, or corrosion somewhere?

Any ideas/suggestions?

[KASilvia90]

There should be no timing on fuel on a KA24 I dont know about others though. Basically your ECU and Crank Angle Sensor talk to each other about when to shoot fuel. If your fuel is incorrectly timed, the spark would be too.

Are you getting any sort of popping sounds like minor combustion?

[VanNelson]

No, no popping noises at all.

I'm thinking that maybe the timings off, in that it's getting fuel, but sparking on the wrong stroke or something. That the fuel mixture isn't right because the pistons not fully compressed, or something like that. Maybe if I try again to reset the cams, and the distributor, etc...

I just don't really want to take the valve cover off (I torqued it down and liquid gasketed the cam plugs...). But... whatever, it's something else to try

[Chezedik]

Check your distributor timing, it sounds like it could be 180 out.

[VanNelson]

Check your distributor timing, it sounds like it could be 180 out.

When I put the distributor in, I held the rotor on #1. Since the idler puller/dist. gear connection is twisted, the distributor ended up being off just a little.

The dist. in there real good, i'll to pry the little guy out of there. I used preassembly lube on it, but it's still quite stuck in there, meaning I had a good time getting it in there.

But, in any case, i'll go jack up the car and crank the engine over to TDC, and reset the distributor... we'll see what happens.

[VanNelson]

Cranked the engine onto TDC, and checked the distributor, and it was dead on.

Popped the valve cover off and wrote down the positions of the cams.

Intake sprocket mark: 12pmExhaust sprocket mark: 5pm

Intake lobe: 9pmExhaust lobe: 3pm

9 links in between each mark.

[Chezedik]

What cyl is on TDC, I would guess 1 or 4? It sounds like cam timing is correct. The easy way to tell is that the cams should be doing the same thing, always. So basically, they should always be sepated by 6 hrs at the lobes.

As far as the distributor being hard to get in: Did you have the head milled. When I had mine milled to surface, my distributor did not fit in very well until I had the timing cover milled also, now it slides right in. It's something the machine shop owners should know to do, but sadly most of them do not.

[VanNelson]

I'm using to old timing chain cover, which housed the original distributor.

The #1 and #4 cylinders are at the top of their travel.

The sprocket marks should have 6 links in between them, and mine has seven, but thats only because when I try to put them on the right link, the valves hit the piston.

[12Ounce]

I will mention again, loosening the rocker shaft (or cam shaft in your case) hold-down bolts will keep the valves off of the piston tops until you get the chain correct.

Yes???

[Chezedik]

Yes, or you could turn the cam the other way.

[VanNelson]

I will mention again, loosening the rocker shaft (or cam shaft in your case) hold-down bolts will keep the valves off of the piston tops until you get the chain correct.

Yes???

Ok, here was the problem I was having:When I got the new cylinder head, it cam with new cams and valves. The thing I had never noticed was that they had sent me basically 2 intake cams. The notches weren't in the correct positions for the sprockets, and hence why I couldn't the cams on right.

I ended up putting the cams off my old head on, and everything timing-wise is lined up.

Car still doesn't start though.

My mother said she works with a guy that races cars, and said she'd could get him to take a look at it.

And when that doesn't work, i'm sending her (the 240) to the dealership. So instead of saving money and getting headaches, im now paying money and saving myself the headaches.

I at least want it to run, I need a car damnit.

[Chezedik]

If you have two intake cams, then you cannot put the cams in the same location as you would if you had two different cams. You need to set them a bit differently. Try placing #1 on TDC and making the lobes of the cams face exactly apart from each other. parallell with the gasket seating surface of the valve cover on the head. Then set your chain. This will put your timing correct.

[VanNelson]

If you have two intake cams, then you cannot put the cams in the same location as you would if you had two different cams. You need to set them a bit differently. Try placing #1 on TDC and making the lobes of the cams face exactly apart from each other. parallell with the gasket seating surface of the valve cover on the head. Then set your chain. This will put your timing correct.

Yea, I tried that, but she still start up. Even with my old cams, she didn't start up, although at first I thought I heard a 'pop' like one of the cylinders combusted, but it didn't lead anywhere.

In any case, i'm assuming that neither anyone on NICO or myself have the time, patience, know-how, or etc... to get this thing started, so i'm sending it to the mechanic. Thanks for the help nonetheless, guys.

[Chezedik]

Good Luck!