90Q45, need to beat the camber problem

[DrewQ45]

I've replaced many front end items in the past year or so but still having inside edge wear on my front tires, especially the drivers side.

-Replaced rack bushings-Inner and outer tie rods-Upper links-Drivers side front wheel bearing -Other components I can't even remember

Now admittedly, I'm using 18" wheels so some would say "well suffer in hell then!"... but, I got em for a price I could not refuse and the original rims were bent anyway so here I am. Took me a while but I was able to find a set of 18" tires that were not directional (not an easy feat let me tell you) allowing me to rotate from side to side to my heart's content. While this abated the need to buy new tires as quickly I'm still looking for a better solution....

To make it worse, the springs are old (probably the originals) so when I change them, I plan to slightly lower the car which will compound the problem.... ....Thus the need for adjustable control arms up front. Since these handy items allow me to adjust the camber, would someone please tell me where I can find them at a halfway reasonable price? JWT wants $450 for a set which I find to be so repulsive I have to stay near a toilet when I think about it. Lastly, would someone tell me what to expect as far as rear wheel camber if I lower the car?

Damn! If I keep this up I'm going to lose my title as "King of Q on a budget"

..Drew....

[Q45tech]

Life is a female dog........wanta play you pay........why not use metal spacers between the rear upper link bracket and the body.

Provide the camber readings and I will [you can] calculate the required spacer thickness........zero> 0.25".

The caster causes serious camber gain in turning around town.

But expecting more than 20,000 miles in unrealistic with a decently soft tire.

Lowering just increases the camber by 0.8 degrees negative for a 1.0" front lowering...[about -0.7 deg for the rear]........roughly doubling the tire wear rate!!!!!!!!!!! and internal tire destruction.

[DrewQ45]

Thanks Tech,

As soon as I can get my hand on the alignment specs, I will post it here. I forgot about the metal spacers trick. I might just do that for the front and back since I can't seem to get adjustable control arms at a reasonable price. Hell, that is a MUCH cheaper alternative.

...Drew...

[911/Q45]

The rear has adjustable camber with sufficient travel, so no spacers should be needed there. Wider tires and wheels make toe very critical to get acceptable tire wear, try more toe in and that should reduce the inside edge wear.

[Q45tech]

Remember static alignment is the PRESETTING of errors so that the tires are parallel [zero thrust angle] at 60 mph cruising........obviously in acceleration/handling/braking the forces will over bend the suspension.

Factory settlings are only valid with brand new rubber bushings!

Short of expensive test equipment to measure the parameters while driving tire wear analysis is the only option.

Whether an alignment specialists is competent to change the specs is debateable.

The rear subframe camber/caster mounting tabs may bend enough along with internal arm bushing wear to make it impossible to set the rear camber especially after lowering.

One should study the available ranges of adjustment before lowering to avoid the thousands of dollars of bushing and rear subframe replacement cost for the dubious miniscule improvement lowering creates!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is never done then the complaints and whinning start, when a return to oem springs would solve the problem much more cost effectively!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PalmerWMD]

Just to throw something into the discussion:

I am real pleased with ym current 1.25 inch lowered Eibachs with Togiko Blues all around.But my greatest improvement was when I put on new shock all around with new upper link up front.

car is now as tossable, as a 4000+ lbs sedan has the right to get.

Fred...

[DrewQ45]

Fred, tell me.... how did lowering affect your tire wear? Was a proper alignment achievable afterwards?

Tech; I will lower only if there is room for adjustment in one way or another. The aesthetics of the beast crouching low, while somewhat desirable, will not overpower my sense of practicality. I've completed much of the work (guides etc.) that poses a danger to the Q if left undone. I'm too much of a penny pincher to be flashy. I entertain the thought of lowering only because I need to replace the springs anyway. When I first acquired the Q back in 98', one of the front shocks was completely shot and only the spring was holding the car up. The car would dip deeply in corners or over bumps and anything past 55 was downright dangerous. Even though I installed Tokico blues shortly after purchase, I suspect that the spring may have been weakened by the stress of having to perform more than its fair share of excursions. All the springs are OEM and were with the car at birth anyways. I’ve replaced quite a bit of rubber even though I have more to go. I am slowly trying to solidify the front end as much as possible to minimize the affect on alignment when the forces of motion are in play. Not only that, I love the feel of doing 90 while rocking the steering wheel and feeling no play. That’s when you know you’re doing something right! When I’m done, I should be able to set the cruise, climb in the back seat while doing 60 down a perfectly straight highway, take care of business with my girlfriend and return to find the car still on track. (hehehe) You must admit, in this case having 18” wheels is working to the car’s advantage since it’s forcing me to address all the suspension issues.

Lately, I’ve been taking the car to Gran Turismo, one of the best alignment shops in ATL. They performed my last alignment to the best specs available considering the odds. The guy there (his name slips me at the moment) has been doing alignments (and only alignments) since the 70’s. He was very detailed and proud of his work. He even had me sit in the car at times so he could see how my body weight would affect the settings (a first for me since other shops just throw you the keys when done). While under the car, he would grab parts of the suspension and exert force on them, while observing the monitor to see how the play in those components would skew the numbers. He came to the conclusion that the front end was very tight as is, but still, the inability to adjust camber was the most formidable nemesis facing me. Still, I remain undeterred. As we speak, a set of JWT (cringe) adjustable Tension Rods are en route to me. You must see my level of determination since under ordinary circumstances; I would not order as much as a friggin bumper sticker from those backdoor rapists. I could barely mumble off my credit card numbers over the phone when I was ordering them and kept a box of tissues nearby.

Anyway…as always, your advice and that of others are highly appreciated.

(slowly losing my crown as King of Q on a budget)

....Drew....

[texasoil]

One thing you have not mentioned is a strut tower brace. One for a Maxima fits with minor work on th etop mount. It can and will make a big diference in the feel

[DrewQ45]

Texasoil,

I assume you have one already installed. What type of modification did you have to make and how did you obtain it?

[Rex]

...What type of modification did you have to make and how did you obtain it?

This is a Jeff Williams initiated mod scroll down to Jeff's post, it includes pics.

Also a search for FSTB in Infiniti General will give you tons of info about the Budget Front Strut Tower Brace.

[texasoil]

I bought it on EBAY. Instsallation was easy. Had to drill anothe rhole in the mounting ring (the part that bolts onto the strut mount, and another hole in the 'ears' the location where the bar attaches to the mounting bracket, then saw off and clean up the excess length of the 'ears'. Took about an hour start to finish.

Dramatically improves the turn in response of my 94 Q45a- which is tight and near new condition in all other respects. It now matches the feel of my wifes 92 Q45a closely.

[DrewQ45]

This was pretty interesting reading on Maxima suspension upgrades. All applicable to the Q of course!

It never occurred to me that a strut brace would have that much effect on camber during cornering but it all makes perfect sense now.

http://home.earthlink.net/~max...tage3

I'll be scouring e-bay for an FSTB.... if you run across one, please be sure to let me know.

Thanks... Drew...

[EWT]

A strut tower brace is not going to fix inner edge tire wear. That's due to an excessive amount static negative camber, or a normal amount of negative camber combined with an improper toe setting. The alleged (and dubious on a car like a first generation Q45 without struts) benefit of a strut tower brace is that it keeps the outer strut tower from moving outward during hard cornering, keeping the car from *losing* camber. Even if it had that effect on a Q45, it would actually create more tire wear on the inside edge rather than help it.

Eric

[texasoil]

On my '94 active, alignment was in middle of factory new ranges, and installing the strut tower brace reduced camber to slightly less than specs. (I had the front end supported in middle of the front cross member when installing the brace.)

Effects on our 92 active was less dramatic in terms of handling feel, but 0.5 deg reduction in camber resulted.

[Q45tech]

People don't realize how flemsy [ bendable] the shock towers are.Years of pressure makes the inward collaspe standard on such heavy cars.0.125" per side is common. But the upper link design and the fact that more negative camber is good for handling [at the expense of early tire destruction]????

In theory the strut tower brace should easily pay for itself in reduced tire cost.

The front tension rod brackets bend also and need a welded in cross brace like what is made for 300zx/240sx

The factory sure woun't have spent the money on the 97 and later if it didn't help.

[DrewQ45]

Great feedback --

Soon I'll install the adjutable tension rods and I'll watch on eBay for the FSTB. I'm also considering installing a rear sway bar but I want to apply these items one by one to see the effect gained by each. Since the $tillen tension rods will add a level of harshness, I'm wary of how much I'll be sacrificing the ride comfort with new additions.

I don't want to go too far south of the luxury feel that the Q provides, but, I'm fully aware that this will be a give and take situation. I'm hoping the gains will far outweigh the losses. Aside from what I'll feel on rough roads, are there any ramifications to having both bars installed? If I lower, I'll definately get softer springs than the Eibach since I don't want to turn the Q into a go-cart. Lowering is probably the least desirable change because of how it will affect the ride....but I know these old springs have to go.

...Drew...

[nuQ]

hey drew, did you ever pick up the strut tower brace???? just got mine in the mail today off ebay, cheap!!! write me if you're interested, can get you the number.jeff

[natsoundup]

I would be interested in one of these for my 94 Q....then have you smart guys take pictures while you do yours.

Thanks!

[nuQ]

unfortunatly i'm one of the dumb guys on the board so pics will be a problem!!!!! LOLwaiting for hitman to write me back with some specifics, but it doesn't sound that hard at all. i'll let you know how it goes, though.jeff

[DrewQ45]

Jeff,

I can't wait to hear how it goes for you. Aside from the improvement in handling, I'm very interested in how the bar clears the plenum. I hate vibrations. Let us know soon.

BTW, how heavy is that bar? Does it look thick enough to be ground down if necessary?

...Drew...

[Jeff Williams]

Drew, sounds like you are a serious about your car's handling.

I have about 5/8" clearance, between the motor and brace, but my engine has hardlya any movement (the mounts are in good shape, as well as the transmission mount is new). I had to tilt the bar forward, about 15 degrees, and I was able to apply a little pressure on the strut towers, to help the tire wear issue, but it is still there. I have 17" x 8" with 40 mm offset. I am running Sumitomo HTR+ 255/45/17, which are NOT directional, and they seem to be lasting a lot better, than the NITTO directional ones I had. The Continental Sport Contact tires I started out with, have softer inner walls, and were dangerous.

I have about 15,000 miles onthe HTR+ tires, and I saw a little feathering on the inside edge. That just means I am not cornering the car hard enough.

The FSTB tightened the steering a LOT! I got the idea, because my wife drives a 2000 I30t, and I bougth a bar for it. On a whim, I tried it on the Q, and ended up modifying it to fit. Then I had to buy another one for my wife's car. It makes adifference on the I's cornering, as well.

The bar is a little too long, but the ears can be re-drilled, and it is designed for a 3-bolt strut tower, and the Q has 2. By screwing in the hime joints, the lenght should be fine. If you position one of the factory holes, over a stock Q bolt, then drill another hole in the bracket, the bar crosses right at teh front edge of the plenum. It clears the hood, and after 70,000 miles, it has not rubbed the plenum, at all.

My bars (Bomz racing), are aluminum, and weigh about 15#. The ends have threaded hime joints, that need to be adjusted, before bolting to the brackets. The company I bought it through, on eBay is Direct Car Parts. Here is their email address:

[email protected]

I jsut added Tokiko Blues, upper links, and tension rods to the Q, and it is phenomonal!

I have seen the adjustable tension rods on eBay, for around $119 (You might have to do a search for 300Z).

[nuQ]

i will probably be doing the install next weekend, so i'll let you know how it goes drew!jeff