7 Series. Good or bad idea?

[nissangirl74]

I would really like to have a nice sedan that would be comfortable on road trips. We have lots of coupes and lots of kids, things that don't exactly match. We have the Frontier but the kids are rapidly outgrowing it. I just want something that will get us through the next few years without a lot of cost / hassle. I've heard lots of good things about the 7 series, and a lot of nightmares. They seems to be reasonably priced (on Autotrader) but I have heard that BMWs can be a bear to maintain. Any advice, insight, and education would be greatly appreciated, as well as other ideas.

[Jesda]

Bad, bad idea. Even if it's new and under warranty or used with BMW CPO, it's a potential nightmare that's going to make you uncomfortably familiar with your BMW service provider. They end up at the auto auctions trashed by 70-100k with worn out interiors and a variety of error messages. Even the Audi A8, despite its glass-fragile transmission, seems to endure 5-10 years of service without looking so tired.
I refuse to buy them for resale because I'd feel like a jerk for putting a customer into one of those rolling nightmares. I absolutely would not risk my reputation for one despite the high profit potential.


The 3-series is a different story, generally free of major issues, but that obviously doesn't offer the space and comfort of a 7.


The best car in that class is the 2005+ W221 Mercedes S-class. Unfortunately, they aren't that interesting to drive, but they're incredible places to sit. The throttle feels too artificial and the handling is a bit ponderous compared to the BMW, but the seating and comfort features are top notch. They aren't 100% trouble-free, but they're built to last.



The best compromise, believe it or not, is probably the 2006+ Cadillac DTS. The Northstar+4T80E powertrain goes back to 1993 (GM finally got it right by 2004) and the interior is spacious. What you'll be annoyed by are the large turning radius and average handling (unless you get the Platinum series with Magneride). It's one of the stiffest sedans ever built. Some say the Buick Lucerne V8 (same platform) has a nicer interior, but it looks like a bar of soap to me.

[Bubba1]

Good stuff ^. I'm surprised Jesda ignored the Japanese offerings because if you're interested in reliability, they are above the German and American offerings.

I agree the big 7-series Bimmers are kinda like ABC's wide world of sports....the thrill of driving it and the agony of owning one. They are not particularly reliable and frightfully expensive to repair. also, since you're thinking of used ones, two ugly consenents.... "i - drive". They were notorious. Then there's also the stereotype attached to being a BMW owner. j/k Bri and Wes.

Some other thoughts

I'm surprised the Infiniti M was not mentioned. That would be near the top of my list. They are quite nice, reliable, and even offer some sportiness with luxury, and not infected with CVT. The Acura RL is not bad either. They're also invisible as their styling is rather bland. There's also Lexus. Although not my first choice and I'm sure Jesda will condemn them as they're boring and made by Toyota, but on a long highway trip, if you're looking for comfort and reliability. They do offer a soft ride and rank among the most reliable models out there. I'd prefer a older pampered LS 400 over a newer LS 430.

I agree with Jesda about the Audi's. They offer refinement, comfort and competence and if you lived in an area with snow, they're awesome. But they can be a terror for post warranty repairs. The Mercedes is the same, the complexity makes for a great driving experience, but the reliability associated that complexity makes them annoying and expensive post warranty.

The big caddy is not a bad choice. The level of refinement is a notch below the germans, but they cost less too. you can expect average reliability, which is among the tops for an American brand, but it's still below the Japanese.

I'd skip the Hyundai Genesis sedan. They are big and comfy, but the older ones are not particularly reliable. The new ones I'm sure will be better.

Another thought is a full sized suv, like an MDX. Surprisingly roomy, very comfortable, all the luxury gizmos, reasonable on gas, holds its value better than the european marques and doesn't break down. I just drove a friend's 2012 model last week and was pleasantly surprised how nice it drove

[WDRacing]

When I bought mine, albeit a 5 series, I knew I was in for some work. Mine had a clearly documented maintenance history, but there is a reason it has a maintenance history...it obviously broke a lot. The previous owner had enough money to take it to BMW.

As a BMW owner, I'd recommend buying something else.

Like Joel said, I like the LS400 and big Caddies.

[Jesda]

Good stuff ^. I'm surprised Jesda ignored the Japanese offerings because if you're interested in reliability, they are above the German and American offerings.

The #1 large premium car for long-term dependability has consistently been the 2006+ Cadillac DTS. GM has, essentially, had two decades to work out the bugs and it shows. There's also a limited number of gadgets outside of heated/cooled seats, a V8, a 4-speed auto, sat nav, XM, HIDs, and Magneride (available only in the DTS Platinum). The most common issues are xenon lamps that can blip out.

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/03/j-d ... ium-sedan/



The Lexus LS will never leave you stranded but more can go wrong simply because of the larger quantity of gadgets and features. I've done a few cross-country trips in LS400s and LS430s and the LS400 is significantly more enjoyable to drive while the 430 has more passenger-friendly features like reclining/massaging/heated/cooled rear seats and a rear fridge, a nice place to store cans of Pelligrino. The 430's Mark Levinson sound system is pathetic for what it costs and the expensive speakers blow quite frequently. The 430's well-aged navigation system isn't so great either, as I've experienced first hand.

Watch out for air suspension on the 430 -- it doesn't do much for ride quality but it costs an arm and leg to repair. Unless you really want the totally decked out reclining and massaging rear seat, rear fridge, and built-in curtains, go for a lesser-optioned 430 with the standard suspension and Pioneer sound system. The base audio is arguably as pleasant as some premium sound systems.

The telescoping steering on the LS430 is known to go bad so once you find a desirable position, try to set it and leave it. Pull the fuse to keep people (like your kids who are driving-age) from futzing with it and wearing it out. Play with the mechanism and check for noise and grinding.

The rear parking sensors can go bad on occasion.

The last 430 I sold had a bad folding mirror mechanism too, a fairly common issue on these cars. Easy to fix (replace the whole mirror) but very annoying. I suggest disabling the folding feature.

The most common and expensive LS430 problem is with fuel fillers that stop when the tank is only half full. You have to lower the entire fuel tank assembly to have the neck replaced. It's a PAIN to repair yourself and ANNOYING to live with. Lexus will only cover it if you're still under warranty, so Google around for the TSB and hand it to your mechanic.

If you get a 430 with radar cruise, make sure it works. That is NOT a cheap fix. The sensor is COSTLY.

In park or neutral, rev the engine a few times (slowly) to check for light misfires at specific points in the rev range. Walk away if it acts up. It could be anything from a MAF to a coil pack (most common reason) to head gaskets (less common, but possible).






I know more than I care to about these fancy Toyotas and need to displace this knowledge with something more interesting. Nothing causes panties to dry up faster at a bar than when Jesda gets hammered and starts talking Lexuses.

[Loki]

I piped up on Facebook already; I don't think they're worth it. I've never felt comfortable or happy while driving one. Personally, if you want the luxury and don't mind a PITA to work on in the first place I would look at used Mercedes. Bad part is that they don't seem to hold value to save their lives, but you can take advantage of that yourself (there's a '06 E55 AMG for $17.5k for sale by me, and I was looking at a '03 SL600 for about $25k last summer).

Every Bavarian I've met drones on about ultimate driving this and handling that, but do you really want a big grand tourer to be a trackslut in an expensive suit? You guys have plenty of fun, sporty cars to my knowledge. Only thing I've even remotely disliked about driving newer MB S-class or E350s is the throttle feels a little ambiguous, but I must admit that I wasn't going full-bore on the thing since it was not my car.

Bubba reminded me of a good point, however: Infiniti M. I know Nissan has been pretty "eh" the past decade, but The M is pretty much the only car I have on my mind once I start earning a decent paycheck. I LOVE the way the 2004 M45 looks (and I love V8s of course), but I love the 2006+ interiors even more. The M is just about the only car I can think of that I would break one of my cardinal driving/owning rules for (1. RWD, 2. Manual). I've also seen ~5 year old Ms in the neighborhood of $20k, which seems like a great value to me. I would do bad things for a newer M56.

[Jmoore124]

The 7 series is an awesome car, no quarrels about that. I had one in the late 90s. (750il v12) it was quick, and probably the nicest riding car I have ever driven. For a big car it cornered flat as a pancake. Really big inside, all in all it was just a great car. However like other people have said the maintenance can be a real killer. Even things like brake light wiring problems are nearly impossible to figure out sometimes with the plethora of normally unnecessary wires and everything is backwards. A headlight bulb for my 750 was a special order part and cost 90 dollars. The transmission lost reverse at some point just over 100k and I auctioned it at a local auction sooner afterwards.

[Jesda]

The M seems too small if your space/comfort target is a 7-er.

[WDRacing]

Hey Jesda, does the 2006+ DTS come with the Concourse option still? The Concourse is the only option package with the center console shifter placement correct? That's the DTS I like, I'd trade my 540 right now for one of those. I was actually looking for one when I bought the 540. After driving it, I had to own one.

But I will always love the land yachts.

[LongBeachCoupe]

I drove a 2005 7 series back then for probably 8k miles right out of the showroom... I never drove a bmw before, and I couldnt understand how it needed to go back to the dealership every other day for service on things that I did not see nor realize were wrong...

A guy that lives across the street from me (happens to be my lawyer) has had the genesis sedan since it came out, and got another one (not a replacement, got a 2nd one for his son) over the summer... and is getting a 3rd one for his wife in a few months...

Hes obviously pleased with it, and I think it is bizzare that he is going to have 3 of the same car, I have known him for 10 years and hes always been a ball busting stickler with high expectations on everything...

[Jesda]

Hey Jesda, does the 2006+ DTS come with the Concourse option still? The Concourse is the only option package with the center console shifter placement correct? That's the DTS I like, I'd trade my 540 right now for one of those. I was actually looking for one when I bought the 540. After driving it, I had to own one.

But I will always love the land yachts.

I believe the Deville Concours went away in 2000, replaced by Deville, Deville DHS, and Deville DTS.

With the 06+ DTS there was Lux, Lux 2, Lux 3, Lux Premium, Performance, and Platinum. What you specifically get with each one baffles me. The center console floor shifter was very common on 06+ DTS. You had to special-order a front bench seat if you wanted a column shifter.

In 2004 the Deville and Deville DHS (but not the more powerful Deville DTS) got the improved Northstar which fixed an issue where head bolts separated from the block and caused head gasket failure.
All 06+ DTSs got the improved engine, however.

[WDRacing]

So anything 06+ is a win. Got it. The 06+ were out of my price range during my last purchase.

I'm not going to be happy until you can explain the differences between the lux, lux 2, lux premium, performance and platinum though

[frapjap]

^ that.

Aaron, Bwana has a 7 series with just about 200k on it. I rode in it last weekend. It runs extremely well, and the interior isn't worn at all. I forgot what year, but I think he said 2003? Either way, the car was very nice and aged well.
He likely got a well maintained vehicle.

Note though, I would never purchase something like this myself. The president of our 5 series has a ton of problems with his. It seems like every week he has a new courtesy rental.

[WDRacing]

The 5 and 7 aren't bad if you can DIY. If you can't, you need deep pockets. My interior isn't worn at all, I do have a couple pixels out here and there on the dash/radio. The ABS, suspension, Vanos and cooling system are the main issues. The cooling system needs preventative maintenance. If it overheats even once for a short time the heads almost always warp. A semi easy fix is to remove the BMW cooling system and install a standard radiator and electric fan setup.

When mine finally dies, I'm just going to swap in a LSx/6spd.

[frapjap]

The 5 and 7 aren't bad if you can DIY. If you can't, you need deep pockets. My interior isn't worn at all, I do have a couple pixels out here and there on the dash/radio. The ABS, suspension, Vanos and cooling system are the main issues. The cooling system needs preventative maintenance. If it overheats even once for a short time the heads almost always warp. A semi easy fix is to remove the BMW cooling system and install a standard radiator and electric fan setup.

When mine finally dies, I'm just going to swap in a LSx/6spd.

Whats the normal cooling system setup?

[Rex]

I've heard both good & bad regarding 7-series sedans ... but I'd be inclined to believe they're more (potential) hassle than you want.

I'd actually suggest a used A8L, S8 or Phaeton (non-W12) assuming you can find one with good service records. Actually, an A8L/S8 with a factory replaced transmission would be a good find.

And if you do get a large German sedan, please oh please make sure you video Greg working on it. That could be youtube gold right there.

[WDRacing]

You mean the BMW system? It's not all that different from a standard system, except they don't have a radiator fill cap. They have an expansion tank. This tank usually takes a crap and the radiator end tanks leak. The clutch for the fan is also prone to death as well.

The Tstat is also controlled by the DME (ecu) which gets signals from 3 places. One is a MAP sensor, so the DME can control the tstat based on engine load. Its very overly complicated.

The E39 with V8 cruises around at 220F water temp. That's just way too hot for my liking. Considering oil reaches optimum viscosity at 160ish F. I haven't done my cooling system yet, it was replaced just prior to me buying it the car. But when I do, I'll be going standard rad with cap and overflow tank and a pair of electric fans.

The 7 shares the V8 with the 5.

[Bubba1]

FWIW I got the CR annual auto issue this past week. Looking at the owner reliability survey for the Cadillac DTS. Owners reported the 2007,2010 & 2011 were slightly better than average for reliability, the 2008/2009 tracked average. Brakes seemed to be the most reported complaint area.

[Bubba1]

I've heard both good & bad regarding 7-series sedans ... but I'd be inclined to believe they're more (potential) hassle than you want.

I'd actually suggest a used A8L, S8 or Phaeton (non-W12) assuming you can find one with good service records. Actually, an A8L/S8 with a factory replaced transmission would be a good find.

And if you do get a large German sedan, please oh please make sure you video Greg working on it. That could be youtube gold right there.

I'd take a (non W12) VW Phaeton before an Audi A8L. Simply because of the bodywork material. Audi A8L's have aluminum bodies. They might weigh a little less, but you will grab your ankles if you need body work. Frightfully expensive.

[AZhitman]

And if you do get a large German sedan, please oh please make sure you video Greg working on it. That could be youtube gold right there.

My Dad was a sailor - I've got curse words you've never heard.

Actually, there will be no German cars in this household if I can help it (unless it's a classic VW). I owned a 2001 Golf TDi for a year and that car ranks as #1 on my "WTF Was I Thinking" list.

They're so overrated it's not funny.

As much as Bex loves the G Sedan, I suspect that a 3-4 year old G will be the likely choice when the time comes.

[Jesda]

I'd take a (non W12) VW Phaeton before an Audi A8L. Simply because of the bodywork material. Audi A8L's have aluminum bodies. They might weigh a little less, but you will grab your ankles if you need body work. Frightfully expensive.

I hear the Phaeton's electrical/computer systems are a nightmare compared to the A8, despite the cars being fairly similar.

[Jesda]

You mean the BMW system? It's not all that different from a standard system, except they don't have a radiator fill cap. They have an expansion tank. This tank usually takes a crap and the radiator end tanks leak. The clutch for the fan is also prone to death as well.

The Tstat is also controlled by the DME (ecu) which gets signals from 3 places. One is a MAP sensor, so the DME can control the tstat based on engine load. Its very overly complicated.

The E39 with V8 cruises around at 220F water temp. That's just way too hot for my liking. Considering oil reaches optimum viscosity at 160ish F. I haven't done my cooling system yet, it was replaced just prior to me buying it the car. But when I do, I'll be going standard rad with cap and overflow tank and a pair of electric fans.

The 7 shares the V8 with the 5.

The Northstar runs on the hotter end too, at 190-219°F. They say combustion is more efficient that way. That's what they say.


I've come to appreciate cars with pressurized expansion tanks. They're easier to burp and less likely to have air pockets from my experience.

[WDRacing]

Combustion probably is more efficient with all that pent up heat. But operating at that temp just means any sort of problem is going to make you go from operating on the edge of efficient to overheated with the quickness. Hence all the warped head issues.

The pressurized expansion tanks are ok, personally I've never had a bleeding issue. I've always jacked the front end up and run through a couple heat cycles. I guess I could see the expansion tank being ok if it wasn't known for being a piece of crap. The level stick snaps off and the expansion tank itself cracks and fails where the hose nipple attaches.

The Northstar and the M54 run wicked rich under a heavy load, like 10:1 AFR. I believe this is to stave of detonation because of the operating temps they run at. That's pretty rich for a naturally aspirated motor.

I haven't done the cooling system yet, I'll make sure I datalog as much real time info as I can for a decent before and after. I'll probably have to go with a hotter plug when I do finally do get around to converting.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I am EXTREMELY fond of the E38 7 and the D2 S8 (and A8, if you want to settle). But there's a damn good reason I'm driving a gutless Lincoln instead of either of those: I know either of these German works of art would be needier than a one-legged puppy.

I second the Deville/DTS or LS400 recommendations. Big, solid, and well-engineered.

[Heavy]

IMHO the LS400 is the perfect cheap luxo-barge. if your going to get one get the 95-00 model, after 98 they refreshed the front end and the interior along with the introduction of VVTi on the 1UZ which added some power. Only thing about the 98+ i dont like is the transmission "same trans i had in the IS300" its very shift happy and sometimes cant decide on the right gear. The 4spd in the 95-97 cars is very silky smooth. They are very very cheap to maintain and have little oddball problems like a cracking EGR tube and some minor front end bushing issues that can be fixed easily. I plan on having mine more up to "par" at carlisle, your welcome to give it a spin if youd like.

[Jesda]

I had the same trans complaints on my '98 LS400. When you wanted to drop the hammer, it took a moment to react and sometimes it was indecisive in the mountains. Occasionally very frustrating. Otherwise, thanks to the fifth gear, I got 27mpg on the highway without trying hard.

In the end, the transmission was why I ditched it. I really miss the Nakamichi audio.

[nissangirl74]

As much as Bex loves the G Sedan, I suspect that a 3-4 year old G will be the likely choice when the time comes.

I have a tendency to fall in love with cars, until I drive them. I'm not easily impressed, especially if it is supposed to be an impressive car. I often get more joy out of a car that is simple, but well built. IDGAF if my car doesn't have bluetooth, a moonroof, navi, or power ANYTHING. Gadgets don't impress me. However, horsepower, ride quality, nice seats, and good visibility do.


As much as I (think I) love the G, I'm kinda scared to drive it, because I'm afraid I won't like it. I really liked our coupe though, and Torry's, so I'm pretty sure it won't be an issue. I can say with certainty though, that after this thread, and the corresponding one on the book of faces, there will never be a BMW in this driveway.

[Ace2cool]

My Dad was a sailor - I've got curse words you've never heard.

It's funny cause it's true.

[AZhitman]

I wish Ben's G sedan was priced a bit lower... SO sexy.

[s0m3th1ngAZ]

One word...XJR