650+ KADET's

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Lets try this again.

Can we have a discussion on building a high boost KADET. I'm familiar with building engines already. But I'm new to KA's. So I figured since there are alot of guys around here who could benefit as well as I, we might as well have a thread about it.

I'm interested in cam/turbo combo's as well as any block design tips you might have. I'll also be raising the redline of the engine to 8500 or so. I'm open for suggestions no matter what the expenses are. I'll deal with that when the time comes.

I'll be building the car upon return to the US next DEC. The car will street driven on occassion but mostly used on the track for drag purposes. The car will have a complete stand alone system as well as datalogging ability. I'll also be running a secondary alcohol injection system. Please don't try to talk me out of alcohol, I've been using it for 6 years.

Lets try to keep the flaming to a minimum in here. PLEASE...

WD

Post by **RYNO_s13** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Any more info? What are you looking to do whith it? I realize that in the states that might be a dumb question but in Japan, a number of odd folks seem to think that 750hp is perfect for going down to the grocery store.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Sorry I didn't add that part into the Topic...I'll edit it now.

THX

Post by **TrueSlide** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Err who is guess whose back?

Hey WD as for raising the redline, I hear its not that advisable, due to the KA being a torquey engine, you are just wasting time and money to extend the revs of the KA. Basically a bigass turbo will get you there

and a compeltly bullet proof bottom end, I can't really supply enough knowledge about a 650+ HP KA because I have yet begun to build a KA. I know a good idea would be to build the piss outta the block, O-Ring it, good high quality pistons/rods/rings.

Basically alot of what george said in the other post, bigger plenum, air manifold, bearings, and valve train parts beefed.

And Alchohol I think kicks ***, outta what I know alchohol burns cold, no better way to keep your engine cooled down

Its probley no problem getting the KA up to that much HP, its just making the engine able to handel it and make use out of it.

I'll probley study up on some stuff and post back if I discover anything useful, until then, good luck!!

Post by **cnichols** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I'm not getting involved in this mess, but I HAD thought about the possible benefits of destroking the KA after reading about a couple different people who have done so to big block chevys and fords to allow them to rev higher.

With a great valvetrain like the KA's, I would think some fairly high revs would be possible. Granted, destroking would cause a loss in torque, but I wonder to what extent the loss would be if the change was not too drastic. I would like to know any specs from anyone who has done it or a place for information on similar projects. Not real familiar in how to achieve the desired effect....I'm kind of in the dark as to what changes would have to be made to the crank/rods/pistons.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Thx alot TrueSlide, The main reason I'm looking at extending the redline is to accomodate a larger turbine. Since a large turbine will have considerable lag, I'll need higher revs to compensate. I haven't talked to any turbo manufacturers as of yet. I'm sure they'll shed a little light on the specifics for me. I'm probably going with a BBturbo from HKS. But we'll see...

Don't listen to any posts from George(aka Guess Who) it only keeps him going.

WD

Post by **cnichols** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

"Hey WD as for raising the redline, I hear its not that advisable, due to the KA being a torquey engine, you are just wasting time and money to extend the revs of the KA. "

I've heard the same, but it is kind of weird how so many people have problems with big 4 cylinders when trying to extract BIG power...I've seen alot of 2.6L Starion/Conquests have problems as well.

I don't think the KA will lose it's lovely torque curve if the change is minor, but I have no proof of this. Getting ready to build up a KA very soon and want to have it mostly planned out before I begin. I decided to prepare everything else before building the motor. I have my fuel, ignition, and standalone engine management system almost installed on a stock motor. Figure I'd rather blow up a bone stock motor while figuring out how to tune the standalone than on a fully built KA...but that's just me.

Post by **TrueSlide** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I still havent decided what I wanna do, turbo KA(D)ET or CA18DET. WD since you are in japan, could ya tell me how the CAs are performing over there

I have yet seen a CA in a car around here, Iam eager to see how they perform. Was the majority of them fast and making good power. My goal is a car that falls somewhere in the 12sec range( probley elimating the CA

)

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Yeah, I went through that trial and error phase as well. It took me 4 RB20's till I got one to hold under 28psi. The damn ring lands kept melting. I just had to add enough alcohol to cool down the combustion without bogging out the engine and losing turbo spool. Of course I had to do all this off the dyno, since dyno runs are 50 bucks each over here.

I'm not going to destroke the engine cause I love torque. If I can't accomplish the high revs, then I'll compensate with somthing else. But I'm pretty sure if I have the works done to the crank and the rest of the lower assembly that I'll be fine.

I'll be getting some tips from a GTR builder whose RB26DET is currently running over 1200 and up into 14000rpm. This guy and his shop are very skilled. I only hope to be 1/2 as good some day.

WD

Post by **TrueSlide** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Oh ya, Iam also aiming for a violent car, when it goes off the line I want it to scare the **** outta me

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

How are the police back in the states? Over here there isn't much of a problem with extremely loud exhuasts and open atmosphere wastgates. I forgot I'll have to deal with all those legalities again.

WD

Post by **TrueSlide** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

WDRacing wrote:How are the police back in the states? Over here there isn't much of a problem with extremely loud exhuasts and open atmosphere wastgates. I forgot I'll have to deal with all those legalities again.

WD

Pretty bad, thanks to our honda buddys and the fast & furious.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Questions:

Is the KA24DE (for lack of a better term) a no contact type of design? Meaning if the timing chain brakes will the pistons contact the valves.

What is the max valve lift I can run?

Does anyone run flat top pistons?

WD

Post by **zeardux** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

go for it, keep my informed, i want to know how the engine building goes. and i think that the ka24de can go to 8500rpm. u just gotta play with it till it works. anyone got some good suggestions as to what i can do with my s13 when i get my ka24de installed, im want to kep it a daily driver, but with like 375rwhp. i wann go turbo, but no nitrous, never will touch the stuff. too dangerous for me. how much psi will the stock block hadle with out blowing a hole in the cylinder wall? what are all the bad things about th ka24de?

Post by **I am Technoman** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

A stock KA24DE pistons are dished so you could go real high with a cam but I don’t suggest over 258 on a turbo KA. If you use 290 or 300 your motor mounts would probably break. I used to work for a Nissan dealer here in Orlando. I have worked on many KA motors from the Altima to the truck line and 240. I apprenticed under Dr John for 2 years and I trust what he tells me being that he has worked on Nissans longer than I have been on Earth. WD you will be able to hit 650Hp but not with out Nos and alcohol.I got faith in you man ! :ylsuper

YouTube · Post by **EZcheese15** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I think you may be able to hit 650 HP without n20 or alchohol, but you will need to lengthen the rods for a better rod:stroke ratio.

Post by **I am Technoman** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I think It would cheeper with Nos and Alcohol.

Post by **I am Technoman** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Why not just run high compresion 9.0.1 forged pistons no gas just 100% alchohol with no intercooler 50psi boost and go for 1000hp? Now that's a 240!

Post by **sil80drifter** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

the KA is a non-interference engine, i know for sure that the SOHC is (it is also flat top pistoned), but I am not certain about the DOHC. K_Car or Dauntless should know.

sil80

Post by **LarryStooge** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

if you dont mind sacraficing a LITTLE bit of bottom end, I'd suggest chopping up the intake manifold. Cut down the size of the runners, the long runners on the KA (really long) help with torque, but hurt top end. Chop the runners in half and put the plenum back ontop of that. Also, make the plenum an angled design where it goes from the throttle body to the back and gets smaller as it goes. Like the McLaren F1 has. It won't help hp, but it will distribute air to each cyl better, this has been proven over and over on flow benches. I beleive they call it an angled throttle body design. If you want serious boost, which is needed for what you'r doing, you'll want low compression, so I'd suggest getting dished valves too, if you don't get the compression difference you'r looking for from pistons. Play it safe with the block, no one knows what it can take, so if I was you, and I had the money to go all out on a 650hp engine, I'd chryogenically treat every part of the engine (maybe the transmission too) and get the top of the pistons ceramic coated. I personally wouldn't go with an HKS turbo, theyre kinda pricey. They're wastegates are a good buy though. Just running over stuff that alot of supra guys at the shop I used to chill at would get, and then stuff I picked up in some tech books regarding F1 engines, etc.

YouTube · Post by **EZcheese15** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Honestly, I would not run lower compression pistons. I would run stock compression but with forged pistons and a shorter stroke with a longer rod. Running low compression allows you to safely run more boost, however if you are building a monster engine, you want lots of boost *and* high compression (well, not necessarily high, but not low).

Post by **TrunkMonkey** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

sil80drifter wrote:i know for sure that the SOHC is (it is also flat top pistoned)

most SOHCs have dish pistons. only early 89 KA24Es came from the factory with flattop pistons.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

My intake design will be similer to the RB26. I'll be keeping fairly long runners though. I love low end torque. The turbine will more then make up for the top end. Plus with the head and intake port matched there shouldn't be any flow problems.

As far as compression goes, I'd have to say I'm leaning towards 9.0/1 static. With forged everything and no detonation I'll be able to keep the low end grunt and still run high boost. I was originally going to go with RB20DET style psitons and 8.0/1 CR. But I talked myself out of it.

Depending on the turbine design and how bad the lag is will determine whether or not I ise N2O. Personally I like the stuff.

Having a standalone Alcohol/Methonal setup has worked for me in the past. I'm going to continue using it. Once you become familiar with it, you'll never want to be without it.

WD

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I am Technoman wrote:Why not just run high compresion 9.0.1 forged pistons no gas just 100% alchohol with no intercooler 50psi boost and go for 1000hp? Now that's a 240!

I need to keep the car driveable on the street. Plus with a straight alky setup you run into spark issues. Alky burns really cold.

Why only 258, I've seen many 4 bangers run 272's. I don't know if 258's will give me enough air/fuel for 650+ HP. Thats why I was leaning towards the longer duration.

Actually, I'll probably be having the cams custom designed. My friend back home races semi pro an swears by it. That way I don't get stuck with to much cam or not enough. Plus the machine shop can do any work to my head for clearence issues at the same time. My list of things to do is getting longer.

WD

Post by **LarryStooge** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

WDRacing wrote:My intake design will be similer to the RB26.

What do you mean by this? I'm not too familiar with the rb26 intake mani (just swap info) so I don't know what's so special about it. I know the R34 version has individual throttle bodies, but that's all I know.

Post by **WDRacing** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Look at VrtGrumpys RB25, it in the RB section.

Post by **kansaidrift** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

How much boost are you planning on running exactly? I can't imagine a KA making 650hp with anything less then 30lbs, uh 1.8 bar i think. Also that headgasket is gonna be an issue. I don't know of anyone who makes an aftermarket. Maybe you can get custom. Also you could go to freshalloy.com and make a post there. But i'll warn you ahead of time your probably gonna get flamed. They'll tell you to go sr, or get real. Or maybe they'll actually help you out. Worth a try though.

YouTube · Post by **EZcheese15** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

650 hp is possible, it just takes $$.

And he doesn't need to go post on FA to find answers. Depending on how serious he is, I can sit down and actually calculate some better rod lengths, intake runner dynamics, and fuel to help out. But I don't think the project is to those stages yet. It's still in the sketching stages.

Post by **TrueSlide** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

Well 650HP is alot of HP especially from a 4 banger!!! So of course alot of boost will be required and Iam sure a headgasket has been already thought of

. And if he posts on FA and they flame him, it goes to show how much noobs they are by not recognizing the potential of the KA and following in the footsteps as everyone else. And if the only advice they can give is "get a SR" they will probley quote a bunch of crap from superstreet about y the SR is so divine, but little do they mention is higher HP + aluminium = bad combo.

Post by **kansaidrift** » Fri Dec 13, 2002 4:27 pm

I'm just saying freshalloy might not be too bad of an idea. Asad, PSI240sx, and those fellas seem to have there **** together. In fact PSI240sx has his own website. He runs 26lbs of boost, although i'm not real impressed with his hp numbers. I think his turbine is really restricted him. Anyhow, there was a cool video posted a while back of him racing, and beating a viper. He takes it by about two car lengths. Its tight.

650+ KADET's

650+ KADET's

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