Congrats to our very own Enthalpy, who last night dynoed out at 539 rear wheel horsepower and 414 rear wheel torque. This was acheived at 26psi on 106 motor octane leaded race gas.
This is a stock bottom end sr20det that was pulled out of a junkyard, slapped together, had some pretty parts bolted on to it, and rode the [censored] out.
Currently this is 13 more horsepower than Nationally acclaimed Phase2Motortrend, who had their car professionally tuned by XS Engineering in California.
Trogdor (Scott's 180SX) Was built by Scott Avoy @ Secret ServicesFunded by Scott Avoy @ Secret ServicesTuned by Scott Avoy @ Secret ServicesDriven by Scott Avoy @ Secret Services
This is much more difficult and stressful than just paying someone to have it all done for you. And it's all paid off. !!!
So the ranking is as Follows:
1) Secret Services 539rwhp - tuned by SS2) Phase2Motortrend 526rwhp3) Enjuku Racing 496rwhp - tuned by SS4) JSPEC 433rwhp
Notes: We are out of Fuel / Spark / ClutchThe Spec 3 fails somewhere above 400 rear wheel torque after repeated abuse. ;-)The Walbro fuel pump and stock fuel lines are inadequate for over 500rear wheel horsepower. Our 1000CC Injectors couldn't supply enough fuel with the current setup.The factory coils, despite some Garage 803 SPL tricks we were using, just couldnt handle the boost, and were starting to blow out spark. However this dyno run is still much cleaner than phase 2's ;-)
539RWHP Stock Block SR20DET !!!
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McAdam
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that is simply astounding! stock block and stock internals?? that is still one hell of a clean run! the AF numbers are very stable, especially compared to other higher HP SR's that are dipping down into the low 10's for AF ratio. It just goes to show what you can do with the proper tuning and a buttload of time and knowhow!
McAdam
McAdam
McAdam wrote:<snip> the AF numbers are very stable, especially compared to other higher HP SR's that are dipping down into the low 10's for AF ratio. It just goes to show what you can do with the proper tuning and a buttload of time and knowhow!
McAdam
Huh? They're going *leaner* than the other guys to make the power. 12.1-13.0 (which they were running is leaner than the 10to1 ratios you're mentioning. Leaner (providing you're not detonating and having the knock sensor choke back timing) will make more power than running 10.1 (which is on the rich side/safe side).
I'm not trying to take anything away from "secret services" or anything, just pointing this out.
I'd be interested in seeing what this car puts down with some real gas in the tank.
What did the timing maps look like on the run, does anyone know?
A lot of people think that "just dialing in the fuel correctly" is gonna make big gains on a dyno, when in actuality you'll see more gains by playing with the timing (without detonation and of course the fuel maps need to be in line). A/F ratios don't mean jack without timing.
I'm *REALLY* impressed by this # on crappy 106 octane. I'm just curious why they aren't using some "good" gas.
DSSA wrote:Huh? They're going *leaner* than the other guys to make the power. 12.1-13.0 (which they were running is leaner than the 10to1 ratios you're mentioning. Leaner (providing you're not detonating and having the knock sensor choke back timing) will make more power than running 10.1 (which is on the rich side/safe side).
I'm not trying to take anything away from "secret services" or anything, just pointing this out.
I'd be interested in seeing what this car puts down with some real gas in the tank.
What did the timing maps look like on the run, does anyone know?
A lot of people think that "just dialing in the fuel correctly" is gonna make big gains on a dyno, when in actuality you'll see more gains by playing with the timing (without detonation and of course the fuel maps need to be in line). A/F ratios don't mean jack without timing.
I'm *REALLY* impressed by this # on crappy 106 octane. I'm just curious why they aren't using some "good" gas.
this is Enthalpy on matts account..cause i dont have a NICO account.
thanks for the props but you need to get a few things straight. the car would not have made any more power using "better gas" all automotive fuels contain roughly the same amount of enrgy per burn...going to more octan would not have given me more power. futhermore timing would also not have given me more power. as long as you are reaching max cylinder pressure approx 20 deg after TDC you are going to make power. the catch is this:
more octane doesnt LET you run more timing it MAKES you run more timing because the burn rate is so slow. advancing the timing will not increase the power unless you are reaching peak cylinder pressures too late. timing does not = power.
the gas we were using was motor octane rated at 106. but if we had no detonation...and the ccar was making the power we wanted then why go to anything else? you tune your timing to the fuel you are using. if you are running into detonation problems then you go to higher octane. fuels like C-16 are great...if you have the motor / boost combination to require them. c-16 is perfect for 10:1 CR motors running 30 psi. but with only 8.5:1 CR on a stock SR such crazy fuel is not necessary.
furthermore if i were to have run the AFR at around 10:1 like you guys are discussing the car would have run like crap!!. that is simply too rich for these types of fuels. dipping rich 12:1 right at the TQ peak is a good way to help the longevity of the motor. but after that the setup ran best between 12.2:1 and 13.0:1 we tried to keep it around 12.5:1 for best power and saftey margin.
Scott
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McAdam
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thats what I'm saying! a richer A/F ratio is only a "bandaid" for poor tuning. It took a lot of knowhow and good tuning to get those A/F's up in the 12's and 13's range. you don't want to drown the spark out. plus with a lower A/F, it'll lower cylinder temps, which is a good thing, to a certain poiint. After that point, its starts to have a negative effect on power production.
again, well done Enthalpy! I hope my CA runs as well when I get it done! (I'm not going anywhere near the 500RWHP mark, but damn! thats a nice Dyno pull!)McAdam
again, well done Enthalpy! I hope my CA runs as well when I get it done! (I'm not going anywhere near the 500RWHP mark, but damn! thats a nice Dyno pull!)McAdam
Perhaps the dwell (both mechanical and spark) are quite a bit different on the SR20s (I'm by no means an expert with these motors yet) however the 4G63s (which I do have extensive experience with) would run like crap with only 20 degrees of timing and on 106 leaded. Yes, we're often times running 30psi, however, even on only 24-26 psi, most often times we'd never be caught dead using anything but C16...and this is on motors with both 7.8to1 and 8.5to1 mechanical compression. If you guys are maxing out at 20 degrees advance I'd really be surprised.mattback wrote:this is Enthalpy on matts account..cause i dont have a NICO account.
thanks for the props but you need to get a few things straight. the car would not have made any more power using "better gas" all automotive fuels contain roughly the same amount of enrgy per burn...going to more octan would not have given me more power. futhermore timing would also not have given me more power. as long as you are reaching max cylinder pressure approx 20 deg after TDC you are going to make power. the catch is this:
more octane doesnt LET you run more timing it MAKES you run more timing because the burn rate is so slow. advancing the timing will not increase the power unless you are reaching peak cylinder pressures too late. timing does not = power.
the gas we were using was motor octane rated at 106. but if we had no detonation...and the ccar was making the power we wanted then why go to anything else? you tune your timing to the fuel you are using. if you are running into detonation problems then you go to higher octane. fuels like C-16 are great...if you have the motor / boost combination to require them. c-16 is perfect for 10:1 CR motors running 30 psi. but with only 8.5:1 CR on a stock SR such crazy fuel is not necessary.
I have to completely disagree with your statement about timing not making power. I've seen many cars pick up considerable gains by increasing timing after the fuel maps have been smoothed out, then adjusting the maps once again--yes, timing DOES make power when you're running a fuel with good anti-pre-ignition qualities. Some of the best pulls I've seen with FI cars are with the timing advanced to the point of a knock sum of 2-4. This of course depends on what ECU you're running and how aggressive it is with pulling back timing once it reads knock. We're not working with rotaries here. A very small amount of knock is acceptable--at least with the 4G63s.
Quote » furthermore if i were to have run the AFR at around 10:1 like you guys are discussing the car would have run like crap!!. that is simply too rich for these types of fuels. dipping rich 12:1 right at the TQ peak is a good way to help the longevity of the motor. but after that the setup ran best between 12.2:1 and 13.0:1 we tried to keep it around 12.5:1 for best power and saftey margin.
Scott [/quote]
That was my point. He seemingly was stating that "even though you guys were running 12-13.1 AFRs you were making as much/more power than the other "high powered" SR20s out there". I was pointing out that it would only stand to reason that someone would be making more power with the proper A/F ratios instead of running excessively rich like the guys running 10to1 (I'd hate to have been in the dyno room with those cars without a gas mask).
I'm not following you once again. Either my reading comprehension skills are going to hell, or you don't express yourself clearly.McAdam wrote:thats what I'm saying! a richer A/F ratio is only a "bandaid" for poor tuning. It took a lot of knowhow and good tuning to get those A/F's up in the 12's and 13's range. you don't want to drown the spark out. plus with a lower A/F, it'll lower cylinder temps, which is a good thing, to a certain poiint. After that point, its starts to have a negative effect on power production.
This above statement makes me almost think that you're saying that a reading of 13to1 is going to lower cylinder temps over 11to1.
Although rewiring cars makes me braindead, and that's all I've been doing this morning on a customer's car. Mmmm...twisted wires with electrical tape loosely wrapping it together and looking like black spaghetti all over the engine bay is fun. :rant
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McAdam
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heres what I am saying. low A/F ratios, i.e. in the 10's is, a bandaid for poor tuning. this is the kind of backyard tuning that says "Its knocking, put some more fuel in it to cool off the cylinder temps" its kind of like people putting "5th" injectors on motors to dump gas in, instead of properly sized injectors in each cylinder. sure, it'll work, but not nearly as well as the proper size injectors.
I was trying to say that lower a/f ratios will lower cylinder temperatures and that lower cylinder temperatures will prevent detonation, but once you get past the point where detenation is occuring, the point to go any lower becomes moot. like if you getting detonation at 13:1 and you make the a/f 12:1 and it stops, why the hell would you keep lowering it past 12:1?
and what I was saying in my original post was "you guys have a kick *** motor that is running 12 to 13:1 a/f ratios, that takes some awesome tuning and you know what your doing, where as all the other high HP SR's are running 10:1 a/f's because they are too lazy to go thru and painstakingly (and properly) smooth out all the fuel and timing maps"
hope this clears things up.
McAdam
p.s. I hear ya on not wanting to be in the room with the SR's running 10:1 a/f. gawd! you'd choke to death before they made their first full pull!
I was trying to say that lower a/f ratios will lower cylinder temperatures and that lower cylinder temperatures will prevent detonation, but once you get past the point where detenation is occuring, the point to go any lower becomes moot. like if you getting detonation at 13:1 and you make the a/f 12:1 and it stops, why the hell would you keep lowering it past 12:1?
and what I was saying in my original post was "you guys have a kick *** motor that is running 12 to 13:1 a/f ratios, that takes some awesome tuning and you know what your doing, where as all the other high HP SR's are running 10:1 a/f's because they are too lazy to go thru and painstakingly (and properly) smooth out all the fuel and timing maps"
hope this clears things up.
McAdam
p.s. I hear ya on not wanting to be in the room with the SR's running 10:1 a/f. gawd! you'd choke to death before they made their first full pull!
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McAdam
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just out of morbid curiosity, at what point does this happen? I know quite a bit about cars, both in firsthand experience and "magazine" power production, but am always willing ot learn something new. I have heard of running so rich and/or having timing so far off that fuel will continue to burn once it enters the exhaust manifold. I have also heard that people sometimes do this to "kick start" their turbos. but thats gotta be rough as hell on everything in the system.
McAdam
McAdam
well, the extra fuel burning will produce a hotter combustion temperature. there is no set point that it will happen in all motors. but i can tell you that peak horsepower and torque is not always peak egt's.
for example, we saw on a boosted dodge spirit, as the air fuel went from 12:1 to 11:1, the power was almost the same (6-8 rwhp less) but with almost 200 degrees more egt. The timing and boost values were identical however.
However it's good in some cases to run it really rich where the turbo spools up, because that extra heat will speed up exhaust gases and spool the turbo a little bitharder. the same goes for retarding the timing where the turbo is coming in, fire it out the exhaust and keep the heat and velocities and pressures in the manifold higher, then advanceing the timing past the torque curve.
working at a dyno shop , i have first hand experienece in playing with these forced induction cars, and i can tell you that there is no set in stone point at which the egts go from colder to hotter, but it goes something like this
14.7:1 peak egts, maximum combustion higher than 14.7:1 lower egtsas you get richer than stoich you will see lower egts, then to a point somewhere arond 10 -11:1 they will come back up. then somehwere lower than that usually around 9:1 they will just flood the chamber and egts will come down far as the plugs foul out
for example, we saw on a boosted dodge spirit, as the air fuel went from 12:1 to 11:1, the power was almost the same (6-8 rwhp less) but with almost 200 degrees more egt. The timing and boost values were identical however.
However it's good in some cases to run it really rich where the turbo spools up, because that extra heat will speed up exhaust gases and spool the turbo a little bitharder. the same goes for retarding the timing where the turbo is coming in, fire it out the exhaust and keep the heat and velocities and pressures in the manifold higher, then advanceing the timing past the torque curve.
working at a dyno shop , i have first hand experienece in playing with these forced induction cars, and i can tell you that there is no set in stone point at which the egts go from colder to hotter, but it goes something like this
14.7:1 peak egts, maximum combustion higher than 14.7:1 lower egtsas you get richer than stoich you will see lower egts, then to a point somewhere arond 10 -11:1 they will come back up. then somehwere lower than that usually around 9:1 they will just flood the chamber and egts will come down far as the plugs foul out
congrats, your work is awsomeMcAdam wrote:just out of morbid curiosity, at what point does this happen? I know quite a bit about cars, both in firsthand experience and "magazine" power production, but am always willing ot learn something new. I have heard of running so rich and/or having timing so far off that fuel will continue to burn once it enters the exhaust manifold. I have also heard that people sometimes do this to "kick start" their turbos. but thats gotta be rough as hell on everything in the system.
McAdam
The reason that EGTs will sometimes go up at richer A/F ratios, and the way people "kick start" (read, anti-lag setups) their turbos are basically the same thing--too much fuel with too little advance on the timing settings. The fuel is not being burned completely in the cylinder, and continues to burn through the exhaust tract.
Anti-lag setups on the Haltech and most other stand-alones work like this, whenever the values are matched for the anti-lag setup (button pushed, clutch in and >X% of throttle input, however you choose to set it up) the computer retards the hell out of the timing and dumps fuel--causing the engine to basically fire through the exhaust manifold, and spooling the turbo with the increased pressure/heat now present in the exhaust system pre-exducer wheel.
Hope this helps with what you're asking.
mattback wrote:well, the extra fuel burning will produce a hotter combustion temperature. there is no set point that it will happen in all motors. but i can tell you that peak horsepower and torque is not always peak egt's.
for example, we saw on a boosted dodge spirit, as the air fuel went from 12:1 to 11:1, the power was almost the same (6-8 rwhp less) but with almost 200 degrees more egt. The timing and boost values were identical however.
The reason for this is what you state in the last sentence. Not neccesarily the boost aspect, but the timing. Down in the 11:1 areas (especially on higher octane gas) without increased timing, the cylinder may not completely burn off all of the mixture before the exhaust valves open. And as you added, "allowing the mixture to complete combustion in the exhaust manifold".
This brings up a good point (and kind of what I think you were getting at). EGTs are in "indication" of what is going on in your cylinders during the combustion process. "Indication" being the key word. The whole reason behind having them is to indicate what cylinder temps are, however, just like narrow-band 02 sensors, can read the exact oppostie of what's actually going on inside the cylinder at extreme deviations from an ideal mixture.
EGTs can read high, even when cylinder temps may be low. The extra gas in the cylinders actually cools temps inside the cylinder, however, if it's not being burnt off before the exhaust stroke takes place, can fire into the manifold, creating extreme temperature readings--the closer the sensor is to the actual combustion event, the higher the reading is going to be. So, if you're running richer A/F ratios, and don't have enough timing advance to make a clean burn in the cylinder, even though the EGT sensor is reading high, the cylinder temps (which is the whole reason for having an EGT) may actually be low.
Narrow-band 02s can fall victim to the same sort of anomaly. If a sensor is seeing a condition that is horrendously rich, it can read as if it's seeing a lean condition.
These above instances are two very good reason for anyone who is serious about tuning to either visit their local dyno and make use of their wideband, or to install a wideband kit for tuning purposes on their car.
As for the tuning on Secret Services car vs. other people's cars, yes, if you're going for peak power on a dyno or setting the car up for 10 second dragstrip runs, those A/F ratios are about perfect. The other people mentioned as to be running much richer(never saw them, so just a shot in the dark)--are they possibly road-course racers, or inclined to doing top-end pulls? While SS's plots are good for power production, I wouldn't want to put money on the motor holding up for any type of torture where they're staying at higher boost levels for any extended periods of time. Some of the other people may be running it a little fatter up top to keep cylinder temps. down and the motor together on long pulls and are willing to sacrifice a little "dyno power" in the process.
You guys are really getting me psyched up to get a dyno (instead of always using friends' dynos) and playing with these motors! I need a change from DSMs and 4G63 powered cars.:ylsuper