yeah. my build has tons of bsing in it from people getting of topic

I'm trying to figure out how much gain you get from extrude honing the hoising.

Ex. Honing is $200 can that be spent somewhere else and accomplish the same gains ?

wow this post is amazing. lots of good info. i would love to see the numbers you get with the meth kit by the way. i have been thinking of one for a while now but I havent decided on a specific kit yet

fullmetal wrote:wow this post is amazing. lots of good info. i would love to see the numbers you get with the meth kit by the way. i have been thinking of one for a while now but I havent decided on a specific kit yet

Any of the big name brands (at this point) will work the same....Aquamist, SMC, etc etc.

I choose Aquamist due to the fact that Jim Wolf Technology actually suggests to use it, and offers a water injection map in conjunction with the Aquamist setup.

tripleJs15 wrote:sorry dude i was already ticked about the first guy's stupid comment, its all good though......nice build

The question has been asked many times on the forum, but never in this tread....I figured it was a good reason for me to post up that little compressor map comparison for everyone to see

Cody, did you take it to the track yet?

You have the 48 trim and the 56 trim maps, but you didn't show the 52 trim. Is there a reason you didn't even consider it? Your choice obviously works, but I'm just wondering if the 52 trim might work just a little better? BTW, I plan on copying your setup with a few minor modifications. (tomei cams, custom fabricated intercooler setup, and blow-through Mass Air)

DrifterProdigy85 wrote:Cody, did you take it to the track yet?

Yea i went last summer. Didn't do very well. It would spin damn near through first and 2nd.

IIRC I ran a 12.6 @ 118 at 17/18 psi. I really need some drag radials for the pig. I don't think it's a bad time considering the car is no where near setup for drag, full option everything, and at the time about 3/4 of a tank of gas hehe.

Alpha_Maverick wrote:You have the 48 trim and the 56 trim maps, but you didn't show the 52 trim. Is there a reason you didn't even consider it? Your choice obviously works, but I'm just wondering if the 52 trim might work just a little better? BTW, I plan on copying your setup with a few minor modifications. (tomei cams, custom fabricated intercooler setup, and blow-through Mass Air)

At the time the 52 trim wasn't available. I was one of the first guys to really get involved with the 2871r .64, as most went to the .86 or 30r's.

On top of that, I don't like the 52 trim either because it retains all of that small OE bolt on stuff. I like the 56 trim due to the nice 3" traditional inlet, as thhe cobra maf and all have a 3" outlet as well.

As far as changing, I really dislike blowthrough setups. They tend to not be nearly as reliable (as the z32 and cobra maf's just don't withstand the blowthrough well). If going with any cam, make sure you're in the low 26x duration...none of that 256 stuff. I'd strongly suggest the JWT S3's, but to each their own.

i must have the 52 trim then. lol i have 264 cams. lol i know my setup will be more then enough to make me sh*t my self when i drive it.

I tend to agree with you on the compressor housing inlet/outlet configuration. I was wondering about the compressor map, but it looks like it would be pushing into surge right as it hit full boost @ 4k. 56 trim it is, then!

Blowthrough vs. Drawthrough? I've heard valid arguments on both sides of the fence, and as long as the turbo isn't leaking oil, I'm pretty sure I can set it up just fine, and it will allow me to use a TiAL BOV, instead of a recirculating valve... Although, TiAL is coming out with a recirc. valve soon... hmm... Anyway, the reason I am going with the Tomei cams is this: if you check the advertised duration compared to the .050 (or whatever the metric equivalent is) the Tomei cams have a more agressive lobe acceleration, resulting in more area under the curve for the same lobe lift. There are only a couple of their cams that exhibit this behavior, but I believe it to be worth it. (I don't remember which ones off the top of my head since my s13 project has been on a back burner for a while)

I went with the Tomei Procam 260, Tomei Exh Mani and Tomei elbow, and we'll see how it works out.

OK, trying to find the cam specs that I had before. so far, I have this comparison:

http://web.utk.edu/~cjohns32/camlist.htm

apparently, Tomei, Jun, and HKS all have 256* Adv. Dur. cams with 11.5mm of lift. why would that not be better than the s3? Theoretically (I haven't found the full specs yet, still looking), they would have less overlap, and more flow when open, resulting in better response and less boost bleed at high rpms. Or am I missing something?

idahotuner wrote:i must have the 52 trim then. lol i have 264 cams. lol i know my setup will be more then enough to make me sh*t my self when i drive it.

You are going to be *VERY* happy

Alpha_Maverick wrote:I tend to agree with you on the compressor housing inlet/outlet configuration. I was wondering about the compressor map, but it looks like it would be pushing into surge right as it hit full boost @ 4k. 56 trim it is, then!

The closer to the surge line on the left, typically is inducive of faster/quicker spool (more v8 like as I like to say)

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Blowthrough vs. Drawthrough? I've heard valid arguments on both sides of the fence, and as long as the turbo isn't leaking oil, I'm pretty sure I can set it up just fine

From experience on cars with both, I can soundly claim that drawthrough works better in all aspects aside from the rare situation that you may or may not blow a pipe off (or a coupler) Running drawthrough allows the use of smaller pipeing, which aids with spool up as well.

It's also above and beyond the 'oil in pipes' situation too (mind you most big boost turbo cars, catch can and pcv all working will still sometimes have an oilly (slight) vapor in the pipes)....MAF's are really made to withstand the turbolence created from the actual boost 'hitting' the element. Also be known that with a hot turbo car, the blow through will hurt more power than a traditional draw through, due to intake charge being that much warmer due to the boost and the sort. You also fight odd resonance issues as well (much like a drawthrough being to close to the turbo).

I always say, that if it was the easier, and better option, than OE's would have been doing that from the get go....as it's much cheaper to pipe a blowthrough thatn drawthrough....

Alpha_Maverick wrote:apparently, Tomei, Jun, and HKS all have 256* Adv. Dur. cams with 11.5mm of lift. why would that not be better than the s3? Theoretically (I haven't found the full specs yet, still looking), they would have less overlap, and more flow when open, resulting in better response and less boost bleed at high rpms. Or am I missing something?

The advantage the s3's have is the 260 degree duration @ 11.3 lift. You're pretty much right on it all, but that slightly longer 'open' timeframe is where the power (namely midrange) is made.

From the FWD spectrum, it seems as if the 256 cams always make similar torque, but for not nearly as long.

codyace wrote:The closer to the surge line on the left, typically is inducive of faster/quicker spool (more v8 like as I like to say)

I was saying that the 52 trim would be experiencing surge, where the 56 is only borderline, at the 20psi@4k red dot. (I was reaffirming your choice)

codyace wrote:From experience on cars with both, I can soundly claim that drawthrough works better in all aspects aside from the rare situation that you may or may not blow a pipe off (or a coupler) Running drawthrough allows the use of smaller pipeing, which aids with spool up as well.

80mm MAF leading to a 70mm (assuming I upgrade) TB isn't too bad, and on the hot side of the intercooler, I can run the same diameter as the turbo outlet.

codyace wrote:It's also above and beyond the 'oil in pipes' situation too (mind you most big boost turbo cars, catch can and pcv all working will still sometimes have an oilly (slight) vapor in the pipes)....MAF's are really made to withstand the turbolence created from the actual boost 'hitting' the element. [...]You also fight odd resonance issues as well (much like a drawthrough being to close to the turbo).

Cobra and Z32 MAF's are a hot wire design, which means that a little oil will just get burned off. A lot of oil will screw it up, though. I will be using a flow straightener to prevent the turbulence issue, and I will have to experiment with positioning to find the best distance to avoid the resonance "problem".

I don't get this one:

codyace wrote:Also be known that with a hot turbo car, the blow through will hurt more power than a traditional draw through, due to intake charge being that much warmer due to the boost and the sort.

Are you saying that the MAF sensor won't read the airflow right because it is hot? If so, that's not the case. There is a reason it is called MASS air flow, not VOLUME.

Like I said, I have heard all of those arguments before, as well as counterpoints. Thank you for your advice, though.

codyace wrote:The advantage the s3's have is the 260 degree duration @ 11.3 lift. You're pretty much right on it all, but that slightly longer 'open' timeframe is where the power (namely midrange) is made.

From the FWD spectrum, it seems as if the 256 cams always make similar torque, but for not nearly as long.

Here, I'm an idiot... The last engine I built was a 5.9 liter sbf. It has a 253/265 Adv. dur. (int./exh.) cam that runs out of breath at about 5k. I really should have known better. Again, the s13 has been a back burner project for a while. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. I'll probably go with the S3's afterall.

Sorry if I sound argumentative. I just want to make sure everything is perfectly clear, so that I can make the absolute best choice.

Alpha_Maverick wrote:80mm MAF leading to a 70mm (assuming I upgrade) TB isn't too bad, and on the hot side of the intercooler, I can run the same diameter as the turbo outlet.

I'm still a fan of small pipe on both side. having gone from a custom setup on a friends car to the smaller sized pipe setup, I can say that I absolutly loved the slight bit of throttle response we gained on the smaller pipe.

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Cobra and Z32 MAF's are a hot wire design, which means that a little oil will just get burned off. A lot of oil will screw it up, though. I will be using a flow straightener to prevent the turbulence issue, and I will have to experiment with positioning to find the best distance to avoid the resonance "problem".

Hot wire or not, they still fail from such issues. They just aren't designed to withstand that sort of use.

I think the ONLY maf equipped cars that have limited success with blow through are DSMs....but that may be the car gods way of laughing at them for the rest of their issues...

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Are you saying that the MAF sensor won't read the airflow right because it is hot? If so, that's not the case. There is a reason it is called MASS air flow, not VOLUME.

Still measurs how quickly the element heats up and the sort....that hot compressed air can sometimes trick the MAF into thinking things it's not.

I guess in the short relm of things, I can only think of one person out of the 8-10 people I know who have gone blow through sr20 that still has his pipes in that orientation.

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Here, I'm an idiot... The last engine I built was a 5.9 liter sbf. It has a 253/265 Adv. dur. (int./exh.) cam that runs out of breath at about 5k. I really should have known better. Again, the s13 has been a back burner project for a while. That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it. I'll probably go with the S3's afterall.

Hehe, a Windsor man I grew up Ford, so I can appreciate that....although I never graduated above the 302 grade (well one 331 turbo I've helped with hehe).

And comparing v8 cams to import cams is really a hard thing to do too...the rules and durations just don't quite work 'the same' across the board. I think my best comparision as far as SR to SBF would be that a 256 would act more as an 'RV' cam, the 260-264 would be for more grunt/midrange (like the Comp XE cams), and the 268-272 for more of a 'high end/agressive' cam' (we'll call that solid) haha.

Maybe that comparison helps make sense?

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Sorry if I sound argumentative. I just want to make sure everything is perfectly clear, so that I can make the absolute best choice.

I def didn't think such a thing. I actually love meeting new people that actually THINK about thier builds

codyace wrote:I'm still a fan of small pipe on both side. having gone from a custom setup on a friends car to the smaller sized pipe setup, I can say that I absolutly loved the slight bit of throttle response we gained on the smaller pipe.

Thus my "special" intercooler setup. I am going to copy the concept of the project silvia (sport compact car magazine) intercooler, except make it better.

codyace wrote:I think the ONLY maf equipped cars that have limited success with blow through are DSMs....but that may be the car gods way of laughing at them for the rest of their issues...

codyace wrote:I guess in the short relm of things, I can only think of one person out of the 8-10 people I know who have gone blow through sr20 that still has his pipes in that orientation.

well, maybe I can be the second! (I'm going to at least try it. It would make the plumbing SOOOOO clean, it's worth a try, especially when I put my BOV underneath the hotpipe, hiding it from view. )

codyace wrote:Hehe, a Windsor man I grew up Ford, so I can appreciate that....although I never graduated above the 302 grade (well one 331 turbo I've helped with hehe).

And comparing v8 cams to import cams is really a hard thing to do too...the rules and durations just don't quite work 'the same' across the board. I think my best comparision as far as SR to SBF would be that a 256 would act more as an 'RV' cam, the 260-264 would be for more grunt/midrange (like the Comp XE cams), and the 268-272 for more of a 'high end/agressive' cam' (we'll call that solid) haha.

Maybe that comparison helps make sense?

Wow. I didn't think you'd have me pegged so quick. So the 264-ish cams will run out of breath around 7.5k-8k? (-ish. I know that cam choice affects both rpms and turbo choices, etc. blah blah blah.)

codyace wrote:I def didn't think such a thing. I actually love meeting new people that actually THINK about thier builds

Novel idea, huh? People who actually THINK before they spend good money on stuff.

Alpha_Maverick wrote: Thus my "special" intercooler setup. I am going to copy the concept of the project silvia (sport compact car magazine) intercooler, except make it better.

Ah, the original short runner setup hehe. We still need to find someone who had dynoed both back to back, but IIRC someone on FreshAlloy said that they felt little to no difference when they changed theirs.

Alpha_Maverick wrote: well, maybe I can be the second! (I'm going to at least try it. It would make the plumbing SOOOOO clean, it's worth a try, especially when I put my BOV underneath the hotpipe, hiding it from view. )

Hehe, I hope so to for your sake. You're still going to need a big intake on the turbo regardless.....so at least changing to drawthrough won't be difficult if you need to in the future

Alpha_Maverick wrote: Wow. I didn't think you'd have me pegged so quick. So the 264-ish cams will run out of breath around 7.5k-8k? (-ish. I know that cam choice affects both rpms and turbo choices, etc. blah blah blah.)

the 260-262 cams, IMO work BEST with any T2 based flange turbo (gt28r, 2871r .76, 28r etc etc), where I think the 262 (HKS Step 2 and JWT S4) work best for the 3071r and 3076r turbocharger. The 272's would mate with a 35r perfectly.

As far as RPM breath, the thing on turbo cars is that it's often dictated by by the turbo itself, and less the cams....however cams can play a roll. For all intents and purposes, the 28r/28RS/2871r cars are midrange brusiers, that will give you the most fun in the 3000 to 6500 range. Now that's not to say that they dont' make (or can't make) good power at redline, as they all can, it's just that those turbos are uber punchy, uber fun, and drive as 'v8 like' as they come. The beauty of this, is that a 370-400 whp 2871r .64 should have NO ISSUE being faster than a 400 whp 3071r car...namely due to the different in powerbands.

....ideally I woudl love someday for someone (or myself) to convert to a solid valvetrain, add springs/retainers, and run a set of JWT C1 series cams (C series needs valvesprings due to lift) out to 8500 rpm with a 2871r. I think that while torque wouldn't be as great as redline (obviously due to math), but I think it would make for an easy 430 whp car at redline (@ 20 psi)...and I'm not sure it would die off to hard.

Alpha_Maverick wrote: Novel idea, huh? People who actually THINK before they spend good money on stuff.

haha, you may laugh, but it's not as common as we would like. Our industry is still way to controlled by advertisment, pocketbooks, and magaizines

i dont want to veer from teh current topic but after rereading this thread it looks like you have a profec b boost controller. is this current or did you switch to something different? i just wanted to here your opinion on what are some good boost controllers. i had a profec b spec 2 and didnt really like it. after some researching though i decided that the avcr woudl be a good choice

codyace wrote:haha, you may laugh, but it's not as common as we would like. Our industry is still way to controlled by advertisment, pocketbooks, and magaizines

It's an unfortunate way of the world that things are like this. However, it's just great to see when people actually discuss the theory and the results behind parts combinations.

Alpha, you're not the only person on this board that's been using Dave Coleman's Project Silvia as a role model for setup. I've been using a lot of his ideas for years. My intercooler setup is currently a Saab 900 intercooler setup much like the Apex'i core in Coleman's. In anticipation of the turbo upgrade this summer, I'm swapping to a better flowing Spearco that will be tucked up underneath the upper core support and retain the shortened intake runners.

You can see the intercooler tucked behind the radiator. I never bothered putting plates along the sides of the IC and rad like Coleman did as I felt it promoted heatsoak to the radiator. The nice side effect of going to the spearco is that should fit completely under the core support and I can go back to using stock radiator brackets with the radiator positioned back in its old spot. Also, the spearco will block only half of the radiator allowing better airflow to it. The Saab IC is the same dimension as the radiator. It's thankfully never caused any problems with heatsoak under load.

White Comet wrote:i dont want to veer from teh current topic but after rereading this thread it looks like you have a profec b boost controller. is this current or did you switch to something different? i just wanted to here your opinion on what are some good boost controllers. i had a profec b spec 2 and didnt really like it. after some researching though i decided that the avcr woudl be a good choice

I have a Profec Type S, which is a new version of the original Profec B Spec I

They are super simple to use, and I've never had or heard of an issue with any of them. I'ver personally installed over 10 (maybe 15 at this point) and not changed anything on any of them (except one Profec B Spec I where I had the dip switchs backward lol)

The B Spec II uses a 'sorta/kinda' fuzzy logic, and is definetly not something I like, or would ever suggest. to much guessing for me. Funny that greddy would have changed such a reliable setup.

AVCR's are to be very good at what they do, but I've never personally installed or played with one. A friend of mine had one in his Civic that worked well (boost per gear)

codyace wrote:The B Spec II uses a 'sorta/kinda' fuzzy logic, and is definetly not something I like, or would ever suggest. to much guessing for me. Funny that greddy would have changed such a reliable setup.

yeah i hated mine it was a pain. and i've heard stories of the spec 2s being prone to boost spiking. i just got my avcr today in black and my friend has the same one with his sr and he's putting down more power then any stock t25'ed sr i know of. i heard from the ebay seller , askme4parts, and he said the blitz controllers are the best and he really knows his stuff

Cody, are you still using the internal WG? (I was digging around on FA and found your post about you being sick of boost creep). Also, how is your intercooler set up?

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Cody, are you still using the internal WG? (I was digging around on FA and found your post about you being sick of boost creep). Also, how is your intercooler set up?

No longer am I using that IWG. It's abotu as reliable as a CrossFire Camaro haha. My manifold is currently at Enthalpy, getting an external gate provision welded on.

I have a Greddy RSPL intercooler setup in the traditional sense.

fora boost controller i am gettign a apexi AVC_R

Did you try porting the IWG? I think I will try that first, just to limit plumbing complexity

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Did you try porting the IWG? I think I will try that first, just to limit plumbing complexity

We used to to this when I was younger with DSM turbos, and FWD Sentra setups....only to see the housing develope nasty cracks and the sort from it. It does help a smidge, but I still think it 'wears out' the actuators.

That, combined with my extrude honing....well, lets say I was even more afraid to have cracks develop and ruin the nice turbine housing.

I'm a big K.I.S.S fan myself, but this is somethign I had to do to actually control boost.

please post up pix when you get the mani back, and installed. I am curious how you are planning to route it.

Also, how bad is your boost creep? If it is only slight, then minor porting/blending might take care of it. I know you are going external, but KISS and optimism are pushing me to stay internal. I wonder if you could divorce the turbine and wastegate flow, remove the flapper, and install an external WG on that pipe... That would be stealth-ish and not require borking with the ex. mani. I think I might try that, if I have to.
Modified by Alpha_Maverick at 9:26 PM 2/27/2008

Alpha_Maverick wrote:please post up pix when you get the mani back, and installed. I am curious how you are planning to route it.

If you go on FreshAlloy, look up member 'Vapor' that is how mine will be done.

Alpha_Maverick wrote:Also, how bad is your boost creep? If it is only slight, then minor porting/blending might take care of it.

It's not slight at all If I just let the Actuator do the work itself, it holds 14ish and then goes up to 20-21. With boost controller on, it works to start, but I think eventually the actuator diaphram and spring fail. Mine would hold 20 nicel, but towards the end, it would goto 24ish?

Alpha_Maverick wrote:I know you are going external, but KISS and optimism are pushing me to stay internal. I wonder if you could divorce the turbine and wastegate flow, remove the flapper, and install an external WG on that pipe... That would be stealth-ish and not require borking with the ex. mani. I think I might try that, if I have to.

I know what you mean by keeping things hidden and clean, but there is a point where Function> Looks for me.

Your idea would sorta kinda work in theory, but not really well. ATP makes an 'ultimate internal gate' that may work as well, but at this point, it's to expensive for a 'possible' fix.

The service is 150 bucks, and I know it will fix the issue. I'll end up recirculating the gate as well into the downpipe to keep it quiet.

As far as porting and hoping, look at the FWD crowd and how many people have gotten this modification done with their GTiR and Avenir manifolds running the 28RS and 2871r. Andris Lavins, and Andreas Miko combined probably welded up over 100 of them..... hehe.

It's just nature of the beast for us guys that run the little turbos at high boost. It's a little quarter sized hole, at an exact 90 degree to flow...

Modified by Alpha_Maverick at 9:26 PM 2/27/2008[/QUOTE]

codyace wrote:
We used to to this when I was younger with DSM turbos, and FWD Sentra setups....only to see the housing develope nasty cracks and the sort from it. It does help a smidge, but I still think it 'wears out' the actuators.

i totally agree, its not worth it in most cases, but it is pretty popular among series 4 fc owners but mostly because it works a little and fc owners are cheap

bleah, that setup is ugly. But there is something to be said for the beauty of functionality. Form follows function. How are you going to feed the WG flow back into the exhaust? I couldn't really get close-up pix of the outlet side of the WG.

I assume you are going to use a 38mm (based on Vapor's setup). How low do you think you can get the boost to go (at full throttle. I can almost smell the smart@$$ comments coming)?
Modified by Alpha_Maverick at 8:58 AM 2/28/2008