400-600whp in a CA

Discuss topics related to the CA18DE and CA18DET series engines.
bradsopex
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400-600whp in a CA

Postby bradsopex » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm

Hello all!

Used to be on here as bradt a LONG time ago, and it has been quite a while since I have messed around with CA's. Not sure who all is still here, but interested in where things have come since those days and I have a bit of a project.

I am currently building a AE86 for Unlimited RWD Time Attack. It has front and rear S13 subframes for better suspension tuning, full carbon exterior and aero (except some bits of the diffuser and the wing struts), etc. After all is installed I am expecting it to be fairly light, and am wanting to throw something in that can make 400-600hp without giving me too much grief. I have various 4AGE 16V and 20V motors on hand, as well as a CA18DET I have held onto for a while. I have also looked into other engines, but for the purpose of this thread, I want to focus on the CA.

It will be running Megasquirt. Turbo setup needs to be fairly responsive as I will be all over the power band. I'm hopeful that with the numbers people were seeing with mild internal upgrades back in 08 and 09, that the envelope has been pushed a bit and I can build the CA to be fairly "reliable" at the numbers I am wanting. I'm hoping I won't need much more than 400, but want the ability to go higher if I am dealing with courses that have massive elevation changes.

What suggestions would you all have?


ca18det_boy
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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby ca18det_boy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:56 am

Talk to float6969, he's been in the CA game for over a decade and he's kind of a boss with them. Last I checked he was also running megasquirt.

bradsopex
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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby bradsopex » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:48 am

I remember float, I wanna say he was local to me at some point. He was pretty active back when I was.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby ca18det_boy » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:57 am

He's out by Topeka, KS last I checked unless he moved. I highly doubt that he did, but he's a KS guy.

bradsopex
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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby bradsopex » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:39 pm

Maybe I am remembering someone else, lol.

dash
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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 pm

years ago uk & oz track examples has proven the ca18 up to the task. Hopefully their build details still online
keep the oil cool. Better reciprocating assy balancing (plus catch can/breathing) than oem helps
"fairly responsive" is relative
billet 20g, t3/t4 50trim, gt30 or precision 5557 all 500 capable ~30s psi
evoIII 16g is light cheap responsive rugged... gone passed 400 'cranked up' on 2.0L DSMs
short runner thick wall header preferred.
gt35r twin scroll hsg + paired runner manifold will hit 600
i'd keep redline under 8000... hyd cams. SOME regrinds perform n cost less
sharp tuning mandatory obviously
good luck :yesnod

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby Buddyworm » Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:15 am

Race gas/E85 or Pump fuel?

400 is probably about it on pump, and is the more reasonable goal if staying CA18, but you'll likely need to rev it pretty good to make the HP number.

Things get easier with better fuel where you can just crank the boost, but if a reliable 600hp is what you're after you might do well to consider a bigger engine. Not that the CA won't make the power, but 300+ Hp/L out of that 1.8L engine in a circuit setting puts you into the realm of "asking for trouble" imo.

I know you want to keep it CA18 up in here, but at that power level everything has to be more extreme with the smaller displacement. The boost is way higher, the exhaust backpressures too, temperature control gets more challenging, the oiling system has to be 110% bulletproof, and you will just straight up break more $#!%, more often.

A KA24, Honda's F22, or Toyota's 2AR all range between 2.2 and 2.4L, are more modern, will pull harder out of slow corners, and will make it way easier to get that 600 number. (They have their own set of challenges that need to be dealt with of course; the blocks will still have to be built, you'll still need to be on race gas or alcohol to do it, etc.)

Depending on the size of engine and ultimate power goal, a BW EFR7163, 7670, or 8374 turbo is what you want to look at for best balance of top end and industry-leading response.

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Izento
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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby Izento » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:45 am

Buddyworm wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:15 am
Race gas/E85 or Pump fuel?

400 is probably about it on pump, and is the more reasonable goal if staying CA18, but you'll likely need to rev it pretty good to make the HP number.

Things get easier with better fuel where you can just crank the boost, but if a reliable 600hp is what you're after you might do well to consider a bigger engine. Not that the CA won't make the power, but 300+ Hp/L out of that 1.8L engine in a circuit setting puts you into the realm of "asking for trouble" imo.

I know you want to keep it CA18 up in here, but at that power level everything has to be more extreme with the smaller displacement. The boost is way higher, the exhaust backpressures too, temperature control gets more challenging, the oiling system has to be 110% bulletproof, and you will just straight up break more $#!%, more often.
Personally, I wouldn't do a CA if you're looking for upwards of 600 hp. We've heard of CAs going that high, but they're few and far between. Not only that, but as Buddyworm said, there's just better options if you're looking at high numbers like that. Not only that, but a ton of lag is introduced when going that high on a 1.8L. Just not worth it. And for how light engines are getting these days, you're not really saving much in terms of weight. As a pure race car with only winning in mind, CA would not be my first choice.

If you've gotten past all my dissuading, I think 450-500 is easy and reliable with E85/Race gas. You shouldn't have bad lag and everything should work as it's suppose to without much trouble.

Twin scroll
272 cams to keep up for mid/top end
Definitely redo the catch can/breather situation
Full on dry sump system (if not, then baffle w/ good trap doors, crank scraper)
WPC coated rod bearings/exhaust mani/piston rings/turbo wheel/differential (look it up, amazing things they're doing)
Z32 box w/ conversion plate

That's about all I have to offer. I'm sure everyone else will cover turbos and such. Let us know the progress if you decide to undertake this project.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:22 am

look around at winning combinations
car may b light enough for a competitive 'power to weight ratio'
I posted videos and article of Aarons ca18det powered rwd KP toyota starlet (oz,nz) way back
on a road course (10 laps or so?) went up against heavy hitter EVOs, skylines, RX7s, etc...
The little runt bashed their heads in! That CA had nothing "exotic". Toyota W58 5spd iirc

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby float_6969 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:02 am

Sorry I'm late on this one. Your power goal is a bit difficult and may too broad for this engine and the desire for responsiveness. I think 400HP and responsiveness is pretty attainable. I'd run a BW EFR7163. You should be able to get 400whp out of that turbo with good response and have it spool fairly early (3000-3500-ish depending on exhaust housing) and still not fall off too bad at an 8K RPM redline. The move to 500 and even 600 horsepower moves you too far away from a responsive setup IMHO. I'm aiming fro 500whp on a street/fun car. I'm running a BW EFR 7064 w/a T4 twin scroll 1.04 A/R turbine housing. It's pretty lazy under 3K, but makes decent power by 3500 and is up and going by 4000-4250. It pulls hard with out any drop in boost to 8K RPM. I only got to 17psi of boost and about 375whp before I ran into mechanical issues and so I don't have experience past that yet. I should have that sorted out in the next couple of months and I'll be back to the dyno again, but it's certainly not a setup I would try to race with. I would gladly take a little drop in top end power to pick it up over 3K. Granted, I'm running a big turbine housing, so with one of the smaller housings it might do a bit better, but I wanted to make sure I hit that 500hp goal I was after. It's also a "mid-frame" turbo, which is inherently just not as responsive as a "small frame" turbo like the 7163. I also know the AE 86 engine bay is a bit smaller than the S-chassis bays, so fitting a the bigger turbo's gets to be a challenge as well.

Also, as other have said, while the CA is a fun little engine, by today's standards, it's nothing special, and not especially light. But if it's a situation where you're wanting to use what you have available, and you can tolerate 400whp, then I think you can do it pretty easily with the CA. The 7163 turbo, some 260-ish cams, forged pistons, ARP rod bolts, engine rebuild, port match and polish the head and manifolds, supporting mods (fuel, intercooler, oil cooler, PCV system, etc) it will be a solid, reliable, responsive setup.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:11 pm

BW EFR 7064 w/a T4 twin scroll 1.04 A/R turbine housing. It's pretty lazy under 3K, but makes decent power by 3500 and is up and going by 4000-4250. It pulls hard with out any drop in boost to 8K RPM
behaves very similar to the old classic t3/t4 50trim on a good manifold, stock compression ca18
won't c 375 atw @ 17psi tho.... probably need 10:1, 260 cams, E85 for that
the 50 has hit 585 atw on a 1.8 full street miata, and it's physically small.
20g even a tad smaller. Billet comp / td05(non MHI) / 8cm, dyno 539 atw on a 9.0:1 2.0L street evo
If space is tight, the old stuff can still belt out first rate performance.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby r34 gtr » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:42 pm

Just wanted to poke my head in (lol) and recommend E85 and the Borg Warner EFR series of turbos. Super responsive and great packaging dimensions. As far as what is available right now I don't think you are going to be able to beat them, and I am guessing your budget isn't too constrained considering the class you intend to run in.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby float_6969 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:50 am

dash wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:11 pm
BW EFR 7064 w/a T4 twin scroll 1.04 A/R turbine housing. It's pretty lazy under 3K, but makes decent power by 3500 and is up and going by 4000-4250. It pulls hard with out any drop in boost to 8K RPM
behaves very similar to the old classic t3/t4 50trim on a good manifold, stock compression ca18
won't c 375 atw @ 17psi tho.... probably need 10:1, 260 cams, E85 for that
the 50 has hit 585 atw on a 1.8 full street miata, and it's physically small.
20g even a tad smaller. Billet comp / td05(non MHI) / 8cm, dyno 539 atw on a 9.0:1 2.0L street evo
If space is tight, the old stuff can still belt out first rate performance.
I've had the t3/t4 50trim and the EFR7064 is a completely different animal. While the spool up RPM is comparable, that's about the only similarity. The EFR is making a few psi by 3K rpm and it builds from there. The 50trim does NOTHING until 4500 and then it just explodes. While entertaining, it's hard to race with. Also, the throttle response on those old 50 trims were terrible and you were constantly fighting waves of power that weren't really closely following your throttle input. It took a lot of anticipation of power and throttling early to get the power when you wanted it. The EFR is not like that at all. Also, there was no way the 50trim was making 375HP @ 17psi on the setup I had (E85, 84.5mm pistons, 8.5:1 compression, HKS 264's, in/ex, CPC manifold, divided exhaust housing) While you can make good power with those old turbo's, the off-boost performance and throttle response can't compare to the modern stuff.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby Buddyworm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:52 am

^Indeed. If I had a choice between a design from the dawn of the computer age, or now, I'm for sure picking the current one.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:23 pm

with that mindset, why apply new tech to a pos ca18 fossil ? Don't c the logic in that

a turbo that sees nothing - nothing..... bam! sounds like a sizing problem to me. An archaic T3 lights up instantly on a ca18

which 50 trim, T04E? Stage III exhaust wheel ? Which housing.... 0.48 or 0.63 T3. Ran on a proper fabricated header ?
All this makes a world of difference
Additionally, how many forms of racing, the tach sees under 4000rpm ? If dropping out of boost, something is wrong. Not technology

I do appreciate the first hand feedback tho. Don't get me wrong.
My main point is, new tech doesn't miraculously catapult u into the winners circle
Been down that road, with garret GT, old BW ext tip tech, yada yada. Same narrative all over
See EFRs hyped up here. Veterans with their 9sec street pigs simply say, "why sing it, bring it"
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/poll ... 705/page-2

old tech?
Lots of folks run 'big az' holsets on their CA18s. Why? I couldn't find a tq vs rpm dyno.... so I'll use a DSM
Stock 7.8:1 + 272 cams + HX35/12cm. Divided header (1st manifold he ever built).
Datalog in 4th show 27.7psi @3093 rpm! Would u want better turbo response ? car eventually ran 10.1sec with auto trans!!
https://www.homemadeturbo.com/new-membe ... lo-118516/

(Same HX35 has dynod 600 atw on a STOCK 2.0 4g63 + quality valve springs + custom short runner intake + crappy header
that "old" turbo costs $200. I paid $150 for mine. What will a $1800 EFR do for them ??

u always hear the 'u get what u pay for' horse5hit. Neither of those DSMs paid (better call security) :chuckle:
Heck, he's running $90 ebay pistons and 272 regrinds in that awesome 'old tech' street car

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby float_6969 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:47 am

I never said you couldn't make power. I'm saying that if you take comparable sized turbos, one designed in the 80's and one designed recently, the recent turbo, given all other variable stay the same, will make the same power, with less boost (or more power at the same boost, if you'd rather), spool at a lower RPM, and have better transient response. It's not conjecture, it's just fact. I'm not shitting on those old turbo's. They'll obviously make power. I'm not shitting on CA's either. They're old tech, and obviously people make good numbers with them. But if you took the CA and put a head on it with modern technology, like variable cam timing and lift, better intake port angle, better combustion chamber design, etc., it would make more power, over a wider range of RPM, and probably have better fuel economy and lower emissions. It's not made up, it's just factual. I'm not judging it either. It's just how it is.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:14 pm

i hear ya man. U always make good sense
pick up a tool to do a job
Fact; once applied correctly, old tech perform second to none
Most impressive 4cyl street car I can recall is an olllddd az Izusu gemini.
Modified its original ohv 1.8 and 3spd auto trans. Show quality build.
9.1sec 1/4s without the nitros, many years ago. Outrageous acceleration, even by todays standard
Image
Image

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby Buddyworm » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:35 pm

dash wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:23 pm
with that mindset, why apply new tech to a pos ca18 fossil ? Don't c the logic in that

a turbo that sees nothing - nothing..... bam! sounds like a sizing problem to me. An archaic T3 lights up instantly on a ca18

which 50 trim, T04E? Stage III exhaust wheel ? Which housing.... 0.48 or 0.63 T3. Ran on a proper fabricated header ?
All this makes a world of difference
Additionally, how many forms of racing, the tach sees under 4000rpm ? If dropping out of boost, something is wrong. Not technology

I do appreciate the first hand feedback tho. Don't get me wrong.
My main point is, new tech doesn't miraculously catapult u into the winners circle
Been down that road, with garret GT, old BW ext tip tech, yada yada. Same narrative all over
See EFRs hyped up here. Veterans with their 9sec street pigs simply say, "why sing it, bring it"
https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/poll ... 705/page-2

old tech?
Lots of folks run 'big az' holsets on their CA18s. Why? I couldn't find a tq vs rpm dyno.... so I'll use a DSM
Stock 7.8:1 + 272 cams + HX35/12cm. Divided header (1st manifold he ever built).
Datalog in 4th show 27.7psi @3093 rpm! Would u want better turbo response ? car eventually ran 10.1sec with auto trans!!
https://www.homemadeturbo.com/new-membe ... lo-118516/

(Same HX35 has dynod 600 atw on a STOCK 2.0 4g63 + quality valve springs + custom short runner intake + crappy header
that "old" turbo costs $200. I paid $150 for mine. What will a $1800 EFR do for them ??

u always hear the 'u get what u pay for' horse5hit. Neither of those DSMs paid (better call security) :chuckle:
Heck, he's running $90 ebay pistons and 272 regrinds in that awesome 'old tech' street car
We've already suggested a modern engine ;)

We're talking a circuit car here too, not drag setups. It's all application-dependent. BW made a very clear tradeoff where they gave up top end flow for higher efficiency at lower compressor speeds. They also went to some fairly exotic metals on the turbine side and machined the compressor blades thinner than anything I've ever seen, all with the goal of reducing rotating assembly mass. They're clearly targeting the product at circuit racers.

Fast drag cars are about top end flow and don't have to worry about part-throttle response. I'd imagine most of them are running flat-shift with slush boxes as well. Why would they care about part-throttle, low compressor speed flow if they can pick a torque converter that keeps them in their torque curve the whole pull and they only close the throttle after they cross the finish line?

Precision, for example, has the drag market nailed with their modern aero on journal bearing center sections. They make the opposite compromise as Borg, giving up low speed efficiency for top end flow. Perfect compromise for the application and it's why they dominate the drag market in North America.

On the circuit, put the same (competent) driver in the same car, with different, equivalently-sized turbos, and they're going to lap faster on the modern equipment. Period. Would it be worth the extra money to gain those fractions of a second? I'd say that depends entirely on the race program and the series you're in.




One other thing. I detect an underlying theme in a lot of your posts that all these performance companies are just gouging us and you can get just as good as X from China, but that plainly isn't true in all respects. And it becomes less true every day as the name brand s*** gets more complex.

I can't comment directly on the No-Name pistons, we don't use them, we try to reduce unknowns in customer builds, but the "cost savings" usually show up in fit and finish, and turn out to not be cost savings at all. A very clear example with which I have direct experience is aftermarket valves. The QC isn't as tight with "cheap" valves. Their heights vary more than you get with the pricier outfits like Supertech and by the time you've paid your machinist to check and machine them all to spec you may as well have bought the more expensive parts.

Does that mean the cheap s*** is always s***? No, clearly not always, but it's not like China is some big secret that "they" don't want you to know about.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:12 pm

a full street car that spends 2% of its life at a drag strip, makes it a "drag car" ?
any street car that lays down blistering ETs, automatically make em "drag cars" ? :nono:
That's comical. Let's get real

2.0L 3000 pound DSM is a sample of an awesome performer, with incredible turbo response. All top end, eh ?? :facepalm:
You totally missed the part where I stress, how effective 'lesser' parts can be in capable hands
Who in their right mind puts a turbo designed for a diesel 5.9L on a gas 2.0L ? ....the rest is history.

$90 pistons in daily drivers, some of which have seen close to 40psi, and quiet as stock = best value, period!
It appears they r same manufacturer as oem DSM. Japan, China, who cares? If they're not up to snuff, stay away.

clutch and gearbox issues & cost, was why the switch to auto. Nothing else changed from the superb 5spd setup

Look, some VERY CLEVER folks achieved ALOT more, using ALOT less. Fact. Don't have to accept it. :naughty:
Just mentioning that there ARE options

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby dash » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:20 pm

oh, and point taken, on the BW EFR for circuit car purpose ....

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby boost_boy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:08 pm

A decently built CA18DET with a decently sized mid-range turbocharger such a GT3076R and well built header will be more than sufficient. The trick now is how that puppy is tuned. You can easily get caught-up in the hype of modernization as parts should evolve, but it has been proven between many cars I've built as well as my own two CA18DET powered variants (FWD/RWD), that tuning is fundamental. Though both engines use 35R chargers, one has the billet wheels and the other has standard and I assure you the standard wheel 35R acts as if it has high compression because it comes into full power by 4000rpm and sings it's way to 8800rpm. Love both of them as they are a blast to drive, but your initial engine parts assimilation will make or break your goals. They all work, but it ultimately falls on the tuning or tuner.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby boost_boy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:08 pm

A decently built CA18DET with a decently sized mid-range turbocharger such a GT3076R and well built header will be more than sufficient. The trick now is how that puppy is tuned. You can easily get caught-up in the hype of modernization as parts should evolve, but it has been proven between many cars I've built as well as my own two CA18DET powered variants (FWD/RWD), that tuning is fundamental. Though both engines use 35R chargers, one has the billet wheels and the other has standard and I assure you the standard wheel 35R acts as if it has high compression because it comes into full power by 4000rpm and sings it's way to 8800rpm. Love both of them as they are a blast to drive, but your initial engine parts assimilation will make or break your goals. They all work, but it ultimately falls on the tuning or tuner.

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Re: 400-600whp in a CA

Postby MeanGreenS13 » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:02 pm

When I had my CA S13, I had a 60-1 on stock internals with ARP rod bolts and head studs with a full engine refresh. I saw full boost before 4000rpm and it pulled like a monster to 8000rpm +. I got a base rom tune from someone (can't remember) on another forum based on what I was doing, chipped my ECU and fine street tuned it with E-Manage Blue. The car ran great for 6 months at 1 bar but one day the headgasket said F U. Butt dyno said the car probably put out 400ish, maybe a little less? But the main thing was it was super responsive. I wish I hadn't given up on that car once I started having head gasket issues. I miss that thing terribly.


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