A bit simplistic and sensasionalist but here it goes:
http://wcbs.dayport.com/viewer...ID=48
Fred.
350Z Tire feathering news report
Ryan :
The Other forum told you wrong. -2 is much more toe-in, than you can adjust the Z's suspension to.
-0.2 is the new spec, to prevent tire feathering, with the original spec before the bulletns, being exactly 0 (which was often missed anyhow and wound up to be a slight positive number, during early production)
If someone who hasnt access to the new factory info ,aligns your vehicle he may see the spec read 0 toeout/in.
Then tell him it him it needs to be -0.2, which is also the maximum toe-in possible with our cars.
Fred..
The Other forum told you wrong. -2 is much more toe-in, than you can adjust the Z's suspension to.
-0.2 is the new spec, to prevent tire feathering, with the original spec before the bulletns, being exactly 0 (which was often missed anyhow and wound up to be a slight positive number, during early production)
If someone who hasnt access to the new factory info ,aligns your vehicle he may see the spec read 0 toeout/in.
Then tell him it him it needs to be -0.2, which is also the maximum toe-in possible with our cars.
Fred..
Whoops. I meant -.2 lol. -2 would be unreal
Well I went to this alignment shop, and they said they couldn't align the Z because of the custom wheels not having an outter lip. Something about it falling off the machine.
So I took it to the dealer, and paid 109 for the alignment + 13 for some damn fee.
Oh well, if it preserves my beautiful pirelli ZR tires it's well worth it.
I love this car. This issue doesn't deter me. It's a sports car, so I expect more maintenance. I still pay far less then my Q, and get 10x the ride
LOVE THE Z
Well I went to this alignment shop, and they said they couldn't align the Z because of the custom wheels not having an outter lip. Something about it falling off the machine.
So I took it to the dealer, and paid 109 for the alignment + 13 for some damn fee.
Oh well, if it preserves my beautiful pirelli ZR tires it's well worth it.
I love this car. This issue doesn't deter me. It's a sports car, so I expect more maintenance. I still pay far less then my Q, and get 10x the ride
LOVE THE Z
Back on the feathering issue.
: NNA probly didnt do a good job handling the problem or educating dealership properly, but there is a fix with a proper alignment, if this had been handled a bit better it wouldnt be a problem.
The TSB of course needs to apply to 04's too as least the early 04's.
Fred..
: NNA probly didnt do a good job handling the problem or educating dealership properly, but there is a fix with a proper alignment, if this had been handled a bit better it wouldnt be a problem.
The TSB of course needs to apply to 04's too as least the early 04's.
Fred..
http://www.350ztireclassaction.com/
In here they state that" the 2003 and 2004 Nissan 350Zs were designed in such a way that the front-end and suspension of the vehicles are misaligned, causing premature, accelerated and irregular front tire wear and excessive tire noise in the car . This defect has resulted in the vehicles’ tires having to be replaced far more often than should be neccessary"
It is not a design flaw but a simple misalignment.combined with soft performance tires ( as befits a sports car) which will excascerbate the problem.
I prefer the moeny get spent on better alignment racks/techs than defending against this.
Fred..
In here they state that" the 2003 and 2004 Nissan 350Zs were designed in such a way that the front-end and suspension of the vehicles are misaligned, causing premature, accelerated and irregular front tire wear and excessive tire noise in the car . This defect has resulted in the vehicles’ tires having to be replaced far more often than should be neccessary"
It is not a design flaw but a simple misalignment.combined with soft performance tires ( as befits a sports car) which will excascerbate the problem.
I prefer the moeny get spent on better alignment racks/techs than defending against this.
Fred..
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Re: 350Z Tire feathering news report (PalmerWMD)
just buy better aftermarket part's.
it seems to me that nissan designed the car in anticipation of people driving it as a sports car. when deciding tire wear/alignment they made it so the front end wear should equal out with the average lose of rubber to the rears with brake-stands, burnouts, and drifting/powwerslides. see the problem here is the consumers not having enough fun with their vehicles! im being sracastic of course
Re: (PalmerWMD)
Fred I dont know if your up on alignment racks or not, But we have a hunter 811, which is the best rack on the market, it uses lazer light to measure all the angles on a vehicle. The machine it self practically tells the tech what to adjust. Also most of us that use it in the shop have been trained on that machine and have proper alignment certification.PalmerWMD wrote:
I prefer the moeny get spent on better alignment racks/techs than defending against this.
Fred..
What you may or may not know; The tires on the 350 z are specifiaclly made for that car by Bridgstone, the tire company does not sell that tire to anyone else nor does it typically stock its tire dealers with them. Nissan specifically asked them to make those tire to specs set forth by the engineers of the car. So if you ever go to replace the factory tires with the same brand, be preparred to drop coin.
Scott,
A better choice of words for me, would have to been, to better train techs.(present company excluded)
From your own words if teh alignment is spot-on = no problems.
The fact that problems have been unfixable for some folks, at some dealers, tells me alignments arent done properly at some dealerhships.
Thats were I would like the money spent.
That and making more generous book hour values to keep the techs happier.
As for the stock tires, I think they are very good, too many non enthusiasts buyers on the other Z sites call them "crap" because they wear out quickly, not relaizing that a proper tire for a sports car shouldnt last 20,000 miles anyway as the treatd needs to be very soft to propwerly enable the owner to fully make use of his suspension.
I sold mine to Jezter for cheap when I bought my winter tires, I am sure he will enjoy them, as they are great tires.
Fred..
A better choice of words for me, would have to been, to better train techs.(present company excluded)
From your own words if teh alignment is spot-on = no problems.
The fact that problems have been unfixable for some folks, at some dealers, tells me alignments arent done properly at some dealerhships.
Thats were I would like the money spent.
That and making more generous book hour values to keep the techs happier.
As for the stock tires, I think they are very good, too many non enthusiasts buyers on the other Z sites call them "crap" because they wear out quickly, not relaizing that a proper tire for a sports car shouldnt last 20,000 miles anyway as the treatd needs to be very soft to propwerly enable the owner to fully make use of his suspension.
I sold mine to Jezter for cheap when I bought my winter tires, I am sure he will enjoy them, as they are great tires.
Fred..
Well all dealers dont have alignment racks and instead they sublet them to les shwab in most cases. We have found that they are infact not setting them right on, they set them so they fall with in the "tolorance" and as you said they are not informed of the updated specs.
The times they pay us to do alignments customer pay is very fair we usually can make time on it setting the cars dead nuts.Now warranty is another story, I believe they pay us .2 hrs to set up the machine and set the toe to precise spec. might be .4 hrs which is 20mins
Your input on the tires is an echo of what NNA told us about the tires and why the tires were specially made.
The times they pay us to do alignments customer pay is very fair we usually can make time on it setting the cars dead nuts.Now warranty is another story, I believe they pay us .2 hrs to set up the machine and set the toe to precise spec. might be .4 hrs which is 20mins
Your input on the tires is an echo of what NNA told us about the tires and why the tires were specially made.
One of the bigger 350z sites ( full of non enthusiasts late to the Nissan fold) one guy was saying "Yikes so we'll probaly need an alignment as often as every other year.."
Cearly non enthusiast owners, that dont understand performance cars/parts, are as much part of the problem as anything.
With this generation of Z the "Enthusiastness" of the average Z owner has gone down IMO, even if he is enthusiastic about the car...
I am hopeful the Z33 forum we are building on Nico, will be differnet ,as so many folks here are coming from a enthusiast background and a deeper understanding of cars, than is typical for even many above average consumers.
Fred..
Cearly non enthusiast owners, that dont understand performance cars/parts, are as much part of the problem as anything.
With this generation of Z the "Enthusiastness" of the average Z owner has gone down IMO, even if he is enthusiastic about the car...
I am hopeful the Z33 forum we are building on Nico, will be differnet ,as so many folks here are coming from a enthusiast background and a deeper understanding of cars, than is typical for even many above average consumers.
Fred..
The unfortunite thing about these non car buffs having and complaining about the car is going to give the car a bad rep. The media loves to play up stuff and not really investigate the whole story.So unless the people who truly understand why the car was designed the way it was stand behind the car. The sales will plumit to the point the Z faces extinction[sp?] yet again. This will happen if nissan has to continually add luxury to the car to please the guy who bought the car to increase his jeans size. It will drive the cars price right out of reasonable range again,same thing happened to Z32. Price climbed and sales plumited.
Well considering I paid $130.00 for an alignment at the Nissan dealer, I sure as hell hope it was done properly.
And it's flat out BS the tire feathering isn't happening on 04s, like the dealer says.
I hate dealers, I always will. They ruined my original Q45, lie to me about my Z etc
I like to find those good shops where the really good techs went or started them theirselves, cause they got sick of dealing with the dealer BS as well.
Also this was happening on brand new 2003s coming from Japan. So how does a bad alignment explain how the tires were feathering on new 03s with less then 10k.. sometimes less then 5k.. That must mean something was wrecked when it was shipped from the factory.
This is unacceptable. It needs to be addressed and fixed permanently. If nissan needs to eat some money and change something, then do it.
They are going to be selling a 70k+ GTR either as a Nissan or Infiniti, and these mistakes rather blown out of proportion or not, simply can't be allowed to happen.
And it's flat out BS the tire feathering isn't happening on 04s, like the dealer says.
I hate dealers, I always will. They ruined my original Q45, lie to me about my Z etc
I like to find those good shops where the really good techs went or started them theirselves, cause they got sick of dealing with the dealer BS as well.
Also this was happening on brand new 2003s coming from Japan. So how does a bad alignment explain how the tires were feathering on new 03s with less then 10k.. sometimes less then 5k.. That must mean something was wrecked when it was shipped from the factory.
This is unacceptable. It needs to be addressed and fixed permanently. If nissan needs to eat some money and change something, then do it.
They are going to be selling a 70k+ GTR either as a Nissan or Infiniti, and these mistakes rather blown out of proportion or not, simply can't be allowed to happen.
Re: (350zQ45a)
Ryan, there is no debate the 04 was also having the problem, But the problem steamed from nissan not taking something into account when figuring the proper toe spec for the car. hence the TSB with updated specs that came out. Now from a legal stand point at this time I believe NNA is still denying it applies to the 04 so therefore the dealer must back that up[part of the NNA guidelines for dealers to follow if they want to sell their cars.] Even so we all know it does apply and will align the car to the new spec to resolve it.
I am a dealer tech as well, but I also know some techs just get the car within "tolorance" when they align it. This is partially because they dont get payed enough( not given sufficent time) to care how precise the alignment is. I myself even before this emphasised alignment came out for the Z have always strived to nail the middle of tolorance [which is dead nuts spec] Perfect alignment makes tires much happier .
I do not think you should have to make repetitive visits because of this. For you and any other owner of a Z car 350 or 300 I recommend you ask the advisor to speak to the tech performing the alignment before he starts and mearly ask him politly to get it dead on spec. most likely he will. If you go to the dealer and they want to ship your car off to a les shwab,firestone or something like that ,ask them where the closest dealer is that has an alignment rack to do the job in house as you would rather it be done by a nissan factory trained tech. If more people did this more dealers would have the proper equipment to do the job in house. As I said we have top of the line right now. Also when the job is complete ask for the printout from the alignment machine or a copy of it and before you leave look at it and see if its right on the money. If you take these simple steps problem will be avoided.
But remember you are driving a car nissan made strictly for performance, not luxury. They made serious sacrifices to make this car, one key thing is look at your power antenna, oh wait not one 350z has a power antenna. They cut certain luxuries to make a true performance sportscar at a reasonable price. All tolorences on this car are tight,including the toe adjustment. If you fall to one side or the other of the tolorance on any part of the car wear will occur as that is the nature of a true sports car.
I am a dealer tech as well, but I also know some techs just get the car within "tolorance" when they align it. This is partially because they dont get payed enough( not given sufficent time) to care how precise the alignment is. I myself even before this emphasised alignment came out for the Z have always strived to nail the middle of tolorance [which is dead nuts spec] Perfect alignment makes tires much happier .
I do not think you should have to make repetitive visits because of this. For you and any other owner of a Z car 350 or 300 I recommend you ask the advisor to speak to the tech performing the alignment before he starts and mearly ask him politly to get it dead on spec. most likely he will. If you go to the dealer and they want to ship your car off to a les shwab,firestone or something like that ,ask them where the closest dealer is that has an alignment rack to do the job in house as you would rather it be done by a nissan factory trained tech. If more people did this more dealers would have the proper equipment to do the job in house. As I said we have top of the line right now. Also when the job is complete ask for the printout from the alignment machine or a copy of it and before you leave look at it and see if its right on the money. If you take these simple steps problem will be avoided.
But remember you are driving a car nissan made strictly for performance, not luxury. They made serious sacrifices to make this car, one key thing is look at your power antenna, oh wait not one 350z has a power antenna. They cut certain luxuries to make a true performance sportscar at a reasonable price. All tolorences on this car are tight,including the toe adjustment. If you fall to one side or the other of the tolorance on any part of the car wear will occur as that is the nature of a true sports car.
Where are you at in no cal?
I lived in Sonoma County Healdsburg, until my parents moved when I was 8.
Anyway thanks for the advice. I just hate the service techs telling me it doesn't happen to 04's. It just angers me. Everyone is trying to CYA, instead of doing the right thing.
I know they did the alignment in house, my receipt didn't come with a copy of what the tech did, although I saw it on the dealer copy. This firestone shop has 150 lifetime alignments, but I bet their alignment machine is crappy.
I know this is a performance vehicle, and I'm not really bitching. On other forums I've seen multiple people sell their Z's due to this. The fact is there are plenty of perofrmance cars that don't have this issue.
I bought the Z because I love it. I could of gotten a G35, and not had these issues, and also not had an ugly antenna either
My only complaint thus far is everytime I mention feathering on the 04 I get no. Other then that Love the car, everything about it.
I would have been mad if I didn't have another set of tires, when I saw the inside worn at 3,000. sheesh
I lived in Sonoma County Healdsburg, until my parents moved when I was 8.
Anyway thanks for the advice. I just hate the service techs telling me it doesn't happen to 04's. It just angers me. Everyone is trying to CYA, instead of doing the right thing.
I know they did the alignment in house, my receipt didn't come with a copy of what the tech did, although I saw it on the dealer copy. This firestone shop has 150 lifetime alignments, but I bet their alignment machine is crappy.
I know this is a performance vehicle, and I'm not really bitching. On other forums I've seen multiple people sell their Z's due to this. The fact is there are plenty of perofrmance cars that don't have this issue.
I bought the Z because I love it. I could of gotten a G35, and not had these issues, and also not had an ugly antenna either
My only complaint thus far is everytime I mention feathering on the 04 I get no. Other then that Love the car, everything about it.
I would have been mad if I didn't have another set of tires, when I saw the inside worn at 3,000. sheesh
Re: (350zQ45a)
I grew up in Rohnert park,moved to Santa Rosa and lived there for about 5 yrs after high school, A hop skip and jump from healdsburg, used to go up there to do the Russian river canoe runing about every summer, And some trout fishing. I now live near sacramento though moved here 10 yrs ago.
I understand your frustration with the tire issue. Key problem here though is the fact nissan made a miscalculaion when designing the car but have since corrected the issue with updated specs. The problem is the confusion it has caused with aligning the car to the corrected spec.Some shops know about it and some dont.
The G35 has different set ups though, the coupe has simalar tires as the Z but not the same. The sedan has a completely different set up and the tires are rotateable as they are the same size all around. The G is more of a luxury car and not gear as much toward performance.
I understand your frustration with the tire issue. Key problem here though is the fact nissan made a miscalculaion when designing the car but have since corrected the issue with updated specs. The problem is the confusion it has caused with aligning the car to the corrected spec.Some shops know about it and some dont.
The G35 has different set ups though, the coupe has simalar tires as the Z but not the same. The sedan has a completely different set up and the tires are rotateable as they are the same size all around. The G is more of a luxury car and not gear as much toward performance.
the tires are not the same from my understanding, the tread I believe is not as suseptable to the wear and is designed for a better softer ride. Keep in mind though I do not work on those as frequestly as the Z but have worked on both models and noticed the tires were different even on the coupe. The coupe has many similarities to the track z but is not as rigid as the track.
I will try to do a little research today on asist and see what I can come up with as far as differences of the 2 cars for tires and align specs. maybe do a comparison type thing similar to car comparision things you see on new car buying sites except from a technical stand point rather then options stand point.
If this is a simple miscalculation, then I feel relieved.
If it is such an easy fix, you would of think they could of handled it more professionally.
You should hear other owners on other forums. Many of them have sold their Z, or now are trying to sell them, because of the lousy responses they receive from the dealer. Also there are people who just keep having it happen.
In fact I didn't really know it was a fixable problem, until I read your responses. I thought i was doomed with it, until I went aftermarket suspension/tires...
Hopefully Nissan will learn something from this debacle.
If it is such an easy fix, you would of think they could of handled it more professionally.
You should hear other owners on other forums. Many of them have sold their Z, or now are trying to sell them, because of the lousy responses they receive from the dealer. Also there are people who just keep having it happen.
In fact I didn't really know it was a fixable problem, until I read your responses. I thought i was doomed with it, until I went aftermarket suspension/tires...
Hopefully Nissan will learn something from this debacle.
honestly Ryan Z's right now are the least of nissans concerns, this is why the feathering think took so long to address, They have 3 other vehicles that are in much worse of a situation then the Z. They are actually pleased with the Z's take off. The other 3 vehicles problems are winding down though and the cars and problems of less concern like the Z tires will get more attention.
I have the specs between the G and Z I will post them in a bit, but the one thing I find different that jumped out at me was the wheel base of the cars. The Z is quite abit shorter and may likely be part of the reason the alignment needs to be right on with no tolerance. The R50 pathfinder had a similar tire feathering problem in its first couple years of production and it was because of the wheel base. The fix was to align it to new specs and either replace the tires or cross rotate them to wear down the feathered edges. Same type of situation, But after the intial repairs including proper alignment specs the problem ceased to exist for the pathfinder.
I will get the alignment specs up later tonight.
I have the specs between the G and Z I will post them in a bit, but the one thing I find different that jumped out at me was the wheel base of the cars. The Z is quite abit shorter and may likely be part of the reason the alignment needs to be right on with no tolerance. The R50 pathfinder had a similar tire feathering problem in its first couple years of production and it was because of the wheel base. The fix was to align it to new specs and either replace the tires or cross rotate them to wear down the feathered edges. Same type of situation, But after the intial repairs including proper alignment specs the problem ceased to exist for the pathfinder.
I will get the alignment specs up later tonight.
Re: (NISTECH)
Just a clarification point.. negative toe is toe out, positive toe is toe in.
The saleen S7 runs negative toe because it makes turn in quicker.Mercedes runs lots of toe in because it reduces bump steer and tracks easier....
So what Nissan did is make the toe more negative to prevent the outside feathering and wearing prematuerly, a known problem with Volvo, AUdi and Mercedes because of the higher caster and positive toe angles...
-Chet
The saleen S7 runs negative toe because it makes turn in quicker.Mercedes runs lots of toe in because it reduces bump steer and tracks easier....
So what Nissan did is make the toe more negative to prevent the outside feathering and wearing prematuerly, a known problem with Volvo, AUdi and Mercedes because of the higher caster and positive toe angles...
-Chet
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