350z on death bed trying to revive.

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mrwrolguy
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350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:58 pm

Recently purchased a 04 350z Touring.. I have consult 3 software ran codes only came up with a u1000. No other codes trouble shot the system and discovered the IPDM is bad. Replace IPDM. Now Im reading codes. My problem is I have no spark. I am troubleshooting the harness ecm with a field service manual pin by pin wire by wire. I am leaning torwards a bad ECM. Running all factory OEM coils have power and grounds to all coils ohmed all the trigger wires back to the ECM there all fine. Checked ground harness and power to the ECM there all ok or battery voltage. MY main question is when I fire up my consult 3 it tells me the ignition key is off... when its actually on. I trying to figure out bad ecm or is there a circuit I have missed that triggers the ECM to know the key is actually on when the key is actually on. I have been troubleshooting this vehicle for about 2 months. I know I have to replace the engine because I have no oil pressure even with a manual gauge.. But do not want to install a replacement engine until I get spark. Cam and Crank sensors are reading on the Consult software.

Codes currently on ECM are

po113 not worried about this one
p1065 worried about this one
p1121 not worried relearn pedal
p1122 not worried relearn throttle
C1131 ENGINE SIGNAL 2 from the ABS

also IGN Timing is 110 BTDC have no idea what it was before I re timed it to all the marks intake exhaust both sides and the crank all like up where they should be It was one tooth off when I opened it up. Dont know if this is right could the crank be 180 degrees off? I have no idea what where or who the previous owner did to this vehicle. all the timing marks line up when Im suppose to be TDC.

This is just a project car for me and my 14 year old son. Ill keep hammering away at the FSM till I find it. Hoping for some Consult GURUS.

If need be I can post a video and include a link if necessary.

thanks don :dblthumb:


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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby macgiver » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:03 pm

mac , is'nt there an IGNITER ( 6 transister Pak, whereas ECM or intermediate IGN module shoots a signal to "Base's" & transistor outputs the Coilpack's primary current causing spark) - if that's what's 'spose to be happening here? Ignighter has a "Test procedure" in FSM using simple VOM( volt- ohm meter).If you had a "Logic Probe" you may be able to "SEE" pulse train (probe's LED's flashing) coming from ECM (to an IGN module?) and if used ,from the IGN module - pulse train going to igniter then of course - is pulse good coming out of Igniter ?
Lastly utilize more than one cyl.from ECM/IGN mod., different igniter leg, and use another coilpak !!
Just some things to consider, only a "narrow focus" here ,obviously not limited to this. You probly already know if you value a piece of ordinary test equipment- don't even THINK about measuring SECONDARY or SPARK voltages
:nono:

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mrwrolguy
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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:43 am

Thanks for the reply, this one has been a real stumper. From what I understand from the FSM on this vehicle When you turn the key on it activates power to the coil packs 12 v or battery voltage. Ground is already present tested OK and a third wire coming from the ECM or trigger wire. Working in conjunction with the cam and crank triggers. Saying hey everything is working as it should so here's your spark.. But not the case I get no spark. Im getting cam signals check getting crank signals check but no trigger signal from the ECM so its causing me to go in circles chasing my tail... I was guessing maybe the crank was 180 off but this is a interference motor so valves would have to crash into pistons if that was the case. I checked the timing intake exhaust on 135 246 banks are all lined up where they should along with crank.. Found the timing chain was one tooth off. Im beginning to think its the ECM going to crap. Its a easy enough fix that may be my next step... Im going to recheck pin 121 on the ecm with the key off because ealier right after i changed the IPDM i got a P1065 and C1131. And yes when I check spark I pull coil pack out of engine jam a screw driver and spin motor over and no arc to intake or me. :poke:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:14 am

I've heard that NATS can be a problem. Have you done any diagnostics on the NATS?

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mrwrolguy
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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:55 am

Thanks for the reply Nats is good... Im getting fuel from the injectors. I ran nats through the Software and its reading the key transponder. That was one of the first things I tried. I get time this afternoon Im going to prob pin 121 on the ECM harness thats one of the codes I received.. I have 2 codes telling me ECM problem C1131 from the ABS Engine Signal 2 and P1065. I checked the starting circuit coil voltages but no trigger signal from the ECM. And according to the FSM I have it correctly in time. Ill check a few more things and get a replacement ECM and reprogram it with my key code and go from there. I havent even reinstalled the front Timing Cover yet. :ohno: All Im looking for is SPARK and SPARK only.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby 04_Z » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Hi
I have a 04 Z with 237,000 on it. Sorry to hear of your dilemma. If your NATS is good, from what you posted it is, and battery is healthy, no comment on this in your post I would confirm this. Next, a simple reset of the ECU, you probably tried this. Still won't start than I suspect the ECM is bad. I would search for one in the junkyard and go from there. I had the same symptoms ended up just the battery was weak in the remote for the key fob, took awhile of researching and trouble shooting and some choice words.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:37 pm

I have a 20 amp charger on battery for testing .. I will have to replace the battery its toast for sure... I do have some great news. One of the above posters stated that I need to check my nats.... I went into the software to check nats and guess what... It told me the key was off. Before I had to erase the existing key. Then it told me to power cycle the key to off then on and guess what the software will not connect to the ECM at all the computer is toast.....Great news on the troubleshooting.. Just found the reason I have no spark. BAD ECM finally died. YEAH so I will be searching for a affordable ECM later today or tonight and get it in the mail reprogram my VIN into the new ECM and program my KEY then cross my fingers I have spark... I have traced every wire from the BCM CAN ECM and the starting circuit via the FSM. So I will come back and report on my findings It may be a month but will come back and report if I have spark. Hopefully this will help someone in the future with the codes I have.. I know when the ECM dies the fans come on when you turn the key on... But I have the front of the car pulled off to access the timing chain I wont be reinstalling that till I get SPARK verified. :inout:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby amc49 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:23 am

All cars pretty much use various devices to 'turn on' the computers, if not done then of COURSE the ECM will appear to be dead......................all tests done on those turn on parts? (power relay or the like).

Also, on the OP I saw 110 BTDC degrees IGN timing, an impossible figure.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:34 am

The BTDC of 110 is really puzzling that came from consult 3 by spinning the motor over.. I think the computer is just slamming out bogus info being it was on its way out. I checked and double checked the timing marks on intake and exhaust on both sides with making the key on the crankshaft was pointing at the mark on the oil pump.. Yes I checked all the power circuits that power the ECM via the troubleshooting sections multiple sections. In EC and PG. All systems checked out verified grounds and power where they should be. Replaced the IPDM then I was able to pull codes. Went back to check the Nats system yesterday and in the middle of checking NAts yesterday the ECM took a total dump. I was also getting a C1131 code from from the ABS telling me a problem with Engine Signal 2. Pointing to a problem with harness (checked) or a problem with the ECM. Also got a P1065. Pointing to a harness (checked) power to pin 121 with key off (checked ok) Start circuit ok power to coils and grounds to coils... Ohm'ed out all trigger circuits to the ECM all fine. Yesterday the ECM took a dump Consult will not connect to ECM since yesterday ... ECM relay was swapped power was verified.

The kicker is the ECM for this vehicle is for a 2004.5 350z Touring 6MT The ECM is specific for this vehicle different from base model and auto transmissions made between 10/2003-06/2004 my vehicle was made 05/04 There are 2 FSM for the year 2004. Mine is the 2004.5 verified because the harness is different to the ECM (checked) Im currently searching for part # 23710-ce805 or 23710-CE806 Numbers written on bad ECM are Large letters R4/ little letters MEC35-320 C2 4429. I found on brand new for 750 bucks from Nissan... Not spending that. (budget build) I will contact Vehicle Recyclers on ebay. And posting here. Maybe someone here has one. I contacted a vendor in Florida he's going to check his inventor maybe I will get lucky. As a lost resort I found a place on EBAY that repairs the ECM's for 135 bucks so that may be a option because 750 bucks is not going to happen any time soon. So thats where I am at right now searching for a Valid ECM. :gotme

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:24 pm

JACKPOT!!!!! :mike After emailing and requesting about 20 auto recyclers on ebay today one contacted me back with a VIN # and Its a 350z that was just in a light frontend wreck.. And the ECM is on its way. So by next weekend I should know what the heck is going on with this car. Just a update.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:38 am

I was able to get back into the ECM after disconnecting the battery for 24 hrs. Erased all codes spin the engine over for a few mins off and on and no news codes. Monitored the injector pulse.... Rechecked the timing while spinning over and computer today is BTDC is bouncing between 0 and 1 so I have it in time. Just played around with Nats... ECM is still telling me the key is off while its on and NO ecm trigger to the coils. Verified computer is reading the correct key transponder... SO Im just waiting till ECM comes in. Im also trying to get the Key with the new ECM I purchased. This nats creates a bunch of extra steps to just troubleshoot.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:17 pm

Cancelled the ECM I purchased Friday... Contacted seller and seller does not have the transponder key to go with the ECM... that sux bigtime. Once my refund hits I am going to send the ECM in for repair and testing. Its only 135 bucks verses 156 bucks cost of ECM plus wrecker fees 250 and then dealer key programming on the new ECM Who knows how much that cost. Discovered I have the software to program NATS and Reprogram ECMs but I have to have a 579 dollar security key to plug into my computer so My Consult 3 software will be able to program new keys. So shipping the ECM to repair is the most affordable option. If ECM comes back bad non repairable.. I will start my search for a ECM that comes with a transponder key. I had plans to just Gorilla tape the transponder to the steering column just for testing. And remove the transponder from the key that turns the ignition. As if NATS reads 2 transponder codes it will void out both and engine will not start. The only reason Im typing and updating as this may help someone else with the same problems. And I hope it helps. I will keep a running tab of my adventures. Its a new week a new problem to solve on a budget :rotfl

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby amc49 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:02 am

'As if NATS reads 2 transponder codes it will void out both and engine will not start.'

I guess Nissan doesn't think enough in it's own best interests to figure on somebody owning two of their cars to have two keys on a ring? I do that with identical Fords all the time.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:03 am

I know single keys work for me. As I keep all my vehicle keys on seperate rings based on the vehicle Im driving that day.. With the Z I have 4. So should be shipping the ECM out to ECM repair place If they do a good job I will list them in this thread for future users. Ill update As I get info. :ohno:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:04 am

If you have read through the thread you will notice I stated that I had no oil pressure.. Hooked up a manual gauge changed the pump regulator and bam no oil pressure. So engine replacement is going to be necessary. I really got screwed on this NO START purchase. I pulled off the harness and intake plentium removed all heater hoses and fuel line. ^6 bolts on exhaust 2 motor mounts and unbolting from transmission and engine is ready to come out. Going to be awhile for a update on this one Currently searching for a donor engine. I have my eye on a 06 late 05 350z automatic wrecked. Told seller not purchasing unless I hear the engine run. :dblthumb: And computer is being sent of for repair being checked out.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:56 pm

Oil pumps don't normally just die. I'd pull the pan and have a look at the pickup, and if that yields nothing I'd have the front cover off and take a look at the oil pump.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby amc49 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:36 pm

Pump dead = engine dead in most cases. I say that after working on whopping numbers of them and sold oil pumps to people who thought just a pump fixes everything. WRONG in most cases and they came back days later wanting to return a used pump like it was even possible.

Engine running means literally nothing, you can add a whopping amount of say STP oil treatment and the engine will not show an oil light for ages, maybe a couple days to a week before it begins to flicker again.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:03 am

Well yesterday picked up a side impact wrecked 05 350z.. It is also White. Engine runs fantastic it has been sitting for about a year poured gas into throttle body fired right up no pings knocks or bangs ran it for a good min. One kicker its a automatic. Im still waiting on my repair ECM going to start pulling engine out of the donor. I picked up the donor vehicle for 1600 engine has 109k on it. So now I can go 6mt or later go 5speed automatic have everything for the conversion if I choose. I will add pictures of the both cars later today.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:10 am

evildky wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:56 pm
Oil pumps don't normally just die. I'd pull the pan and have a look at the pickup, and if that yields nothing I'd have the front cover off and take a look at the oil pump.
I agree pumps dont die... mine is dead... So it is donor time. Its getting a heart transplant.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:11 am

amc49 wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:36 pm
Pump dead = engine dead in most cases. I say that after working on whopping numbers of them and sold oil pumps to people who thought just a pump fixes everything. WRONG in most cases and they came back days later wanting to return a used pump like it was even possible.

Engine running means literally nothing, you can add a whopping amount of say STP oil treatment and the engine will not show an oil light for ages, maybe a couple days to a week before it begins to flicker again.
Listening to the donor engine turn over compared to the current engine in car... Engine is dead.. Thats why I pulled the trigger on the wrecked 350z.. Thanks for the input. Replacement engine time. :wavey:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:52 am

I'm just the guy that needs to know why. A swap might be the cheapest and easiest solution but I'm not generally smart enough to take the cheapest or easiest route ;) The engine might be well beyond saving but I'd tear it down to find out why.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby lolit » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:23 pm

Just swap it off so you don't have to think too much about it.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby amc49 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:46 pm

'I'd tear it down to find out why.'

Nah, just think about it. Pumps running in clean oil do not die. When they are worn out it's because trash oil carrying detritus from other places has damaged them. They don't get filtered oil. I often reuse pumps on rare engine types if they look good and tight inside when I do engine repair, you can gauge how well the engine has been treated by how the pump looks.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:07 am

I pulled out my ancient Motor Crane havent used it since the early 90's... The jack is frozen and the casters are rusted to the point they dont roll anymore.. The Crane I have is 10 times more solid than this garbage you get now days.. So I will be working on rebuilding the crane by installing new casters and purchase a new Jack. The crane I have must be a 3 or 4 ton crane compared to the the new ones you can purchase. So after the purchase of the donor car gotta save some funds for a few weeks to get materials to rebuild crane. Any idea how heavy the full dressed V6 engine is? :ohno: Ill update as I make progress. Not in any hurry to complete car. Its just a project for me and my 14 year old son.

The only concern i have.. on the motor swap is the install of the standard flywheel and the crank sensor. Is there only one way to install the flywheel? I know if I install it wrong the cranksensor will be out of phase and engine wont start. I will search this forum and hopefully find some info on flywheel installation. I will also check my service manual. As the donor engine is a automatic.

Heres a picture of the twins. https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN ... nMQTuyr_5k

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:05 am

Flywheel only goes on 1 way. there is a dowel pin on the crankshaft.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:26 pm

evildky wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:05 am
Flywheel only goes on 1 way. there is a dowel pin on the crankshaft.
:wavey: thanks so much for that info.. I was worried as I have never worked on a z before. Had a hardbody nissan like 20 years ago LOL. I was able to get the Crane Jack to work.. Little penetrating oil checked the fill plug jacked the cylinder all the way to the top and no rust seen in the fill hole.. So yeah.. Going to Harbor Freight this weekend and get new castors for the lift, rebuild the lift and I may have a motor out next week depending on time. Thanks Evildky for the info really helpful.. Just got my tracking info from the computer repair company. Hopefully they found something wrong and repaired the ECM for the primary Z. :woot:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:56 pm

Ive got my engine crane rebuilt... This is not like a 350 chevy from the 80's are there engine pull points or should I use straps? What is everyone using to safely remove and install a engine on these ZZZZZ's :confused:

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:17 pm

I'm sorry to say I don't remember for sure but I think we used a length of chain, thats usually my go to. The exhaust manifolds are a bit fiddly and taking the front end off is a bit time consuming but once the prep work is done the engine comes in and out pretty quickly.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby mrwrolguy » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:24 pm

evildky wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:17 pm
I'm sorry to say I don't remember for sure but I think we used a length of chain, thats usually my go to. The exhaust manifolds are a bit fiddly and taking the front end off is a bit time consuming but once the prep work is done the engine comes in and out pretty quickly.
I have the frontend off the #1 car have to pull front off donor car. Im going to try 2" straps and see how that works.. Going to pull #1 engine first then pull donor Im going to take lots of pictures to aid in installing the zillion hoses and harness and grounds I dont want to miss anything or mess anything up.. #1 car ECM should be here monday. Going to check it out before I proceed with Consult before proceeding. Making sure ECM is going to work first. Because Im worried I might have a harness problem or ECM is not repaired correctly. Because I have a complete harness on a running car in the donor.. I know its a mortal sin but I may go Automatic..... Which requires changing the cars entire harness pedals shifter. I still havent decided. I do like the option of not shifting. I dunno yet.

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Re: 350z on death bed trying to revive.

Postby evildky » Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:30 am

If you remove the harness be sure to label everything, there are a lot of same connectors that can be swapped. We swapped two of the cam sensors that took forever to figure out. I don't know what it takes to do a manual swap into an auto but I presume it can be done therefore you won't have to swap the trans, pedals etc. most likely it's the wiring that woud be to the neutral safety on the auto needs to be wired into the clutch safety on the manual.


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