350Z Brembo calipers on a 240sx?

[compression]

Has anyone fitted up 350Z Brembo calipers on their 240sx (S13 or S14)? I am 90% sure they have the same bolt patter, dont know if the offset of the caliper is correct though.

I think it would be an awesome system with the 300zxTT front rotors and 350Z calipers.On ebay I noticed a guy making overpriced brackets so you can use Mitsu. 3000GT VR-4 rotors and the 300zx 4-pot calipers on your 240sx, 5 lug of course.

So if you want to go way big... then figure out a way to use the VR-4 rotors with the 350Z brembos....

Post any info/pics if you have it.

[hannibal]

I met a guy who said he had 350Z Brembos on his S14. He said you only need to retap the caliper mounting holes, as the 350Z uses larger diameter bolts.

You should use the 350Z rotors, not the Z32 ones...

[ILikeMy240sx]

I never understood why people want to use rotors that are bigger than what the calipers cover... Like supra rotors(or VR-4) and z32 calipers... The area that is used for braking still remains the same (where pads and rotors meete)... might be less resistant to overheat but...

It's just more unsprung weight...

[Dookie]

I havent seen 350z brembos on a 240, but it sounds like a cool idea

I never understood why people want to use rotors that are bigger than what the calipers cover... Like supra rotors(or VR-4) and z32 calipers... The area that is used for braking still remains the same (where pads and rotors meete)... might be less resistant to overheat but...

It's just more unsprung weight...

thats probably the point, to spread the heat over a larger area so it will dissipate faster, cold brakes suck, but overheated brakes suck too

[97ka-t]

I can drive all day long on my Z32's (brembo d/s rotors), come home, wash the car, and no steam coming outta my rotors! They get the job done in all catagories

[ILikeMy240sx]

there are better ways to dissipate heat than getting larger rotors than necessary tho... like slotted or cross drilled rotors or brake ducts (far more effective than larger mass)

I think its just a bling factor..

[Dookie]

there are better ways to dissipate heat than getting larger rotors than necessary tho... like slotted or cross drilled rotors or brake ducts (far more effective than larger mass)

I think its just a bling factor..

which is EXACTLY why race teams use giant rotors, the bling factor! of course!(im just messin with you )

[ILikeMy240sx]

they actually have calipers that use the entire surface area of the rotor not just part of it, which is what would happen if you went with supra or VR-4 rotors with z32 calipers....

f1 brakes.. see how the caliper covers all the rotor surface?
Modified by ILikeMy240sx at 10:35 PM 8/19/2005

[cyrus240sx]

you have to remember those are carbon ceramic brakes... and dont need as large of mass to dissipate heat compared to metal rotors..... now yes if the brakes on your car never overheat while you do whatever with your car( road race drift etc...) then you dont really need larger rotors.... but if you are still making your brakes fade with 300zx rotors then you should try the supra/ vr4 rotors before going to a big brake kit...

[Chingon]

there are better ways to dissipate heat than getting larger rotors than necessary tho... like slotted or cross drilled rotors....

I think its just a bling factor..

no...

[ILikeMy240sx]

you have to remember those are carbon ceramic brakes... and dont need as large of mass to dissipate heat compared to metal rotors..... now yes if the brakes on your car never overheat while you do whatever with your car( road race drift etc...) then you dont really need larger rotors.... but if you are still making your brakes fade with 300zx rotors then you should try the supra/ vr4 rotors before going to a big brake kit...

If you are overheaing the brakes with z32 rotors then don't you think there is a better way to dissipate heat than increase the rotor size? I think a properly designed brake air duct would be much more efficient than increasing the rotor size which eventually increases inertia of the rotating objects (harder to make it move and harder to make it stop)

[ILikeMy240sx]

no...

no... what?

next time you quote somebody dont chop off what I said. Thanks.

[Veriest1]

Supra rotors and the like will add more surface area because of the extra outside diameter. More SA has to go through the rotor to make a complete revolution.

That said, if you're fading Z brakes on a 240 then you should probably just bight the bullet and get the 300zx Brembo kit.

[Chingon]

no... what?

next time you quote somebody dont chop off what I said. Thanks.

I quoted that part because it was the part I do not agree with. The other "chop" you had correct...

Bigger rotors is not a bling factor. More mass=more energy absorption, and more surface area=better radiation and convection cooling. The rotors must first absorb the heat energy created by the friction of the pads before it vents it, so reducing the mass of the rotor (by cross-drilling or slotting) is not a better way to cool the rotors than increasing their size. Cross-drilling and slotting is a much bigger bling factor than increasing rotor diameter and width. Increasing the rotor diameter further increases your moment arm, which gives you more torque to deccelerate.

Sure cross-drilling and slotting gives you more surface area, but you first have to remove the heat from the pads by conduction which needs the mass that this drilling removes. Not to mention the number of stress risers and imperfections these procedures bring to the table.

[97ka-t]

Sure cross-drilling and slotting gives you more surface area

[Chingon]

Think about it for a minute...

[GhostDriver]

Trapped gas is relieved so theres (more) direct contact between the pad and rotor(?).

[chmercer]

more surface area on the rotor, but less pad to rotor contact. also less mass on the rotor, so less thermal capacity. drilled / slotted rotors are rice crap, for the most part.

[Chingon]

Trapped gas is relieved so theres (more) direct contact between the pad and rotor(?).

well, no.

The surface area increase is so minimal it shouldn't even be considered as such. Think about the slots on the surface of a disk. They are something like elongated concave half cilinders. That half cilinder surface area is greater than the equivalent flat rectangular area of an unslotted disk.

The same with cross drilling. Where the was solid matter before, you have introduced new cilindrical areas.

General rule of thumb, with any solids, the more fractures or particles you break it into, the greater the surface area.

But when you think about it and how air flows, there should be negligent air travel through these new areas.

You did mention trapped gas relieved which may be in direct contact w/rotor and pad. Let's see what the pros have to say:

BREMBO: 2. Cross-Drilled or Slotted Discs: Clears gasses, cleans pads for better “bite”.

DRILLS AND SLOTS Both drills and slots improve braking consistency, continuously cleaning and refreshing the pad surface. These slots or drilling provide a path to disperse built-up heat and gasses that result from pads acting on the rotors, as well as help to clean and refresh the pad surface. Both help in interrupting the water film in wet driving conditions, improving the brake response; this effect is more sensitive on cross-drilled discs owing to the different full/empty ratio of the surface and the possibility to have water flowing through theholes in the ventilation gap (on vented discs). On the other hand, where extreme friction level is required, the adoption of a highly aggressive pad such as in racing applications is necessary and slots are the right solution: being the slots not all through the disc thickness, the overall mechanical resistance of the disc is higher. Additionally, all of Brembo’s slotted discs are directional: the discs should be installed such that the end of the slot nearest the outer edge of the disc contacts the pad first.

BAER: What are the benefits to cross-drilling, slotting, and zinc-washing my rotors? In years past, cross-drilling and/or slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads began to break down at extreme temperatures. This condition is often referred to as "green pad fade" or "outgassing". When it does occur, the driver still has a good firm brake pedal, but simply little or no friction. Since this normally happens only at temperatures witnessed in racing, this can be very exciting!

However, with today´s race pad technology, ´outgassing´ is no longer much of a concern. When shopping for races pads, or even ultra-high performance road pads, look for the phrases, "dynamic surface treatment", "race ready", and/or, "pre-burnished". When these or similar statements are made by the pad manufacturer, the pad in question will likely have little or no problem with ´outgassing´. Ironically more pedestrian pads used on most streetcars will still exhibit ´outgassing´, but only when used at temperatures normally only encountered on the racetrack.

Although crossdrilling and/or slotting will provide a welcome path to expend any gasses when and if they develop, it is primarily a visual enhancement behind today’s often wide-open wheel designs.

Crossdrilling offers the greatest gas relief pathway, but creates potential "stress risers" from which cracks can occur. Baer´s rotors are cast with crossdrilling in mind, from the material specified, to curved vanes, behind which the holes are placed to minimize potential crack migration. Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings.

What does "cross-drilled and slotted" mean? The expression refers to two separate processes, both of which are carried out on Baer´s EradiSpeed rotors. The first procedure involves drilling rows of holes through the friction surfaces of the rotor, the second refers to milling a series of shallow grooves from the center of the disc towards the edge.In combination, the processes are aimed at making the disc better ventilating and more effective. In addition this gives the rotor a more aggressive and purposeful cosmetic appearance, particularly with today´s open-patterned alloy wheels.

What does slotting do? Slotting increases the bite of the pads and helps the car to decelerate more rapidly. The process doesn´t involve removing as much metal as cross drilling, so it doesn´t result in as great a weight saving. Slotting, however, is even more effective than cross drilling in combating the problem known as "out gassing". This occurs when, at very high braking temperatures, the bonding agents used in some brake pads produce a gas. Under extreme conditions, this gas can create a pneumatic cushion between pad and rotor, giving a driver a normal pedal feel but reducing the amount of friction being generated. The slots pump away this gas and restore full contact. The "micro-shaving" effect of the slots also serves to de-glaze the pads (this is why the edges of the slots on EradiSpeed rotors are not chamfered or "radiused"). It also tends to even out the wear across the brake pad faces, increasing the effective contact area. This can extend rotor life.

WILWOOD: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted? Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity.Slots or grooves in rotor faces are partly a carryover from the days of asbestos pads. Asbestos and other organic pads were prone to "glazing" and the slots tended to help "scrape or de-glaze" them. Drilling and slotting rotors has become popular in street applications for their pure aesthetic value. Wilwood has a large selection of drilled and slotted rotors for a wide range of applications.

STOP-TECH: Which is better, slotted or drilled rotors?

StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors.

DRILLED VS SLOTTED ROTORS

For many years most racing rotors were drilled. There were two reasons - the holes gave the "fireband" boundary layer of gasses and particulate matter someplace to go and the edges of the holes gave the pad a better "bite".

Unfortunately the drilled holes also reduced the thermal capacity of the discs and served as very effective "stress raisers" significantly decreasing disc life. Improvements in friction materials have pretty much made the drilled rotor a thing of the past in racing. Most racing rotors currently feature a series of tangential slots or channels that serve the same purpose without the attendant disadvantages

MY TAKE:

I say a lot is heresay. You can even pinpoint how some companies not only contradict among one another, but within themselves. However, there are many good points, Cross-drilling and slotting reduces mass which is a compromise for unsprung weight. in my opinion it's a procedure no longer needed.

Slotting, well... In professional racing, many events will not stop for rain. Knowing that, water boils @ 100 deg C, so sure, water vapor can get trapped in btwn pad and rotor. The asphalt on the road is another issue, this becomes airborne and can get trapped in btwn rotor and pad, causing glazing. The pads themselves should not "gas-out" like in the old days, and if it does, then it's a crappy pad, or your brake system is not coolig efficiently.

Then we look at off-road racing, ie rally. Mud, plant life, and animal life, can get trapped in btwn rotor and pad, and so a scraping mechanism is needed.

Does it really increase the bite? If the pad has foreign debree, sure, why not? I don't know, perhaps the coefficient of friction decreases as the pad smoothes out. I'd say it's independent of the pad. In street use, do you want a cheese grinder wasting your pads?

And then there's the manufacturers' hidden agenda. Why do they sometimes contradict saying different things about different 'benefits'? Let's face it, plain rotors don't look that cool. If a marketing ploy is going to be eliminated sending consumers to the competitor, is it a good financial move?
Modified by Chingon at 4:47 AM 8/21/2005

[Veriest1]

Most modern pads don't vent gasses. The exception I know of being some of Pagid's lineup.

This is the first I've ever heard of anyone anywhere mentioning more SA from venting and slotting.

The pad won't conform to the shape of the rotor everytime it crosses a hole or slot... so... I don't get it. This statement goes against everything I've read on NICO and other forums and sources.

EDIT: You owned me by 3 minutes. Anyway, I still pretty much stand by what I said. I guess slotted rotors could prove usefull in water and other adverse conditions but notice the F1 rotor above. It's smooth. I haven't seen any tests on this either so it's all just a manufacturer sales pitch at this point.
Modified by Veriest1 at 11:00 PM 8/20/2005

[Chingon]

yeah, I also read the statement and it didn't make much sense. It came from Baer "It also tends to even out the wear across the brake pad faces, increasing the effective contact area. This can extend rotor life.", and truthfully they had the most inconsistencies w/in their statements..

Like this one:The "micro-shaving" effect of the slots also serves to de-glaze the pads ( this is why the edges of the slots on EradiSpeed rotors are not chamfered or "radiused").

To me, that last line sounded like "We are lazy fat-cats who can make more money by not giving a proper finish to the rotors. We not only admit to not casting the slots, but to machine them as well. We have received complaints from our buyers, so we came up w/this half-assed excuse for sharp edges." Any decent machinist will tell you sharp edges are a no-no under cyclic and stressful conditions. Oh well, more money on replacement rotors I guess.

[Veriest1]

I edited my post... sorta.

[Chingon]

Most modern pads don't vent gasses. The exception I know of being some of Pagid's lineup.

This is the first I've ever heard of anyone anywhere mentioning more SA from venting and slotting.

The pad won't conform to the shape of the rotor everytime it crosses a hole or slot... so... I don't get it. This statement goes against everything I've read on NICO and other forums and sources.

EDIT: You owned me by 3 minutes. Anyway, I still pretty much stand by what I said. I guess slotted rotors could prove usefull in water and other adverse conditions but notice the F1 rotor above. It's smooth. I haven't seen any tests on this either so it's all just a manufacturer sales pitch at this point.

Modified by Veriest1 at 11:00 PM 8/20/2005

Oh, now I see what you are saying. It's like what chmcer said, you gain more surface area, but not more contact surface area. My statement meant more surface area in contact with air (the convection medium), which would "aid" in cooling, not in contact with the pad itself.
Modified by Chingon at 5:05 PM 8/21/2005

[97ka-t]

Same here, I get it now, I was just a little confused as to how you thought vented, etc would physically ADD more surface area. All is now understood

[hannibal]

ILike, I understand your point. If you have the larger rotor, you might as well make full use if them by using a larger caliper/pad.

[compression]

we kinda got off topic. So, I guess it is possible to use 350z Brembos on an S14(5-lug) with the 350Z rotors?

I dont track my car, I dont ever even fade the stock brakes. Just looking for some more bling.Is that so wrong!?

[grimple1]

more surface area on the rotor, but less pad to rotor contact. also less mass on the rotor, so less thermal capacity. drilled / slotted rotors are rice crap, for the most part.

/agreed.

[EazyBreazy]

we kinda got off topic. So, I guess it is possible to use 350z Brembos on an S14(5-lug) with the 350Z rotors?

I dont track my car, I dont ever even fade the stock brakes. Just looking for some more bling.Is that so wrong!?

theoretically but as said before you would have to drill out the mounting holes on the car because the 350z brembo calipers use a larger bolt to mount them up. i personally would just go with z32 brakes because they are cheapper and bolt up with the only modification being the rotor and brake line