30 MPG is enough.

[C-Kwik]

If someone said, "Here's your stiffer chassis, quicker and more accurate steering, sportier suspension, and faster acceleration, all for $56/mo as long as you own the car"

I'd take them up on that offer. I'll sacrifice miles per gallon for smiles per gallon if its the difference between enjoying my long daily drive or not. If you drive 20,000 miles a year or more (I certainly do, usually about 25-30k per year), you should probably spend more on the niceness and enjoyment of your vehicle, not less.

Not everyone feels that way. Many people don't consider cars to be something they buy to enjoy. These type of people tend to view cars as transportation rather than something they enjoy. So long as its comfortable, they could probably care less. So the things they do tend to look at are things like overall cost of operations, reliability and safety. What someone places value on varies from person to person.

[carloslebaron]

Saving fuel while driving is a good idea, but most of the hybrid cars are plain ugly.

I have some concerns about such -so called- savings, because to me, those extra batteries must be replaced after -lets say- five years, and I guess that they are "special" batteries which are not cheap, and perhaps you will invest thousands of dollars in new batteries...yes...the thousands of dollars you saved on the road...

About Elantra, you save money, sure you do, as long as you are not a "do it yourself" car owner, because Hyundai and Kia vehicles can only be fulled inspected by a scan tool that cost $4,000. So, ABS, or Airbags system cannot be scanned with a cheaper scan tool. While you can scan the total Nissan, Mercedez, BMW, Volvo, Ford, etc vehicles, with a scan tool which will cost you no more than $500.00, you must have to invest $4,000.00 to do the same with Hyundai or Kia. If you always lean on a mechanic or the dealer, then you are saving money with those Elantra...

From my part, I always prefer comfort over such thing as saving money with hybrid cars, I want space in my trunk to carry bodies...er...I mean... the cooler, folding chairs, the spare tire...etc...

[Jesda]

If someone said, "Here's your stiffer chassis, quicker and more accurate steering, sportier suspension, and faster acceleration, all for $56/mo as long as you own the car"

I'd take them up on that offer. I'll sacrifice miles per gallon for smiles per gallon if its the difference between enjoying my long daily drive or not. If you drive 20,000 miles a year or more (I certainly do, usually about 25-30k per year), you should probably spend more on the niceness and enjoyment of your vehicle, not less.

Not everyone feels that way. Many people don't consider cars to be something they buy to enjoy. These type of people tend to view cars as transportation rather than something they enjoy. So long as its comfortable, they could probably care less. So the things they do tend to look at are things like overall cost of operations, reliability and safety. What someone places value on varies from person to person.

I know; what I'm saying is, "Look at the whole picture."

We're a myopic society that runs screaming from exaggerated fears, "protecting" our kids from vaccinations, jumping on Gluten-free and Atkins, and trading our comfortable transportation for penalty boxes because we think the world is ending. Its a knee-jerk response embedded in our culture, going back to when early American settlers thought there were witches hiding under the bed.

Oil is the new Salem witch.


















And kudos on your pithiest and most readable post, ever.

[nissangirl74]

The Frontier is 6 years old, paid for, and gets a paltry 18 mpg. However, I love my truck. It's fun to drive, comfortable, and it has enough hp to haul orphaned Datsuns across the California desert to Arizona. It is also my daily. Yes, I spend more money on fuel than I would if I bought a Versa, or a Prius, or if I drove the Cube everyday. The fact is, I don't want to drive an econobox. I like driving something that has power. It has no problems meeting emissions standards so I'm not polluting the environment anymore than I would in a 40 mpg car. And I'm not wasting money on a car payment and inflated insurance prices. Just remember, $30,000 buys a LOT of fuel. :-)


i would totally rock a Mazda 3 The hatch is hawt.

[C-Kwik]

I know; what I'm saying is, "Look at the whole picture."

We're a myopic society that runs screaming from exaggerated fears, "protecting" our kids from vaccinations, jumping on Gluten-free and Atkins, and trading our comfortable transportation for penalty boxes because we think the world is ending. Its a knee-jerk response embedded in our culture, going back to when early American settlers thought there were witches hiding under the bed.

Oil is the new Salem witch.

I'm pretty sure I was looking at the whole picture. I totally respect what you want out of a car; just as much as I respect what every other person does to. And I'm generally more in-line with you on what I want out of a car than the "other people". But for people who could give a crap about driving dynamics, I see nothing wrong with making a reasonable financial decision.

It has no problems meeting emissions standards so I'm not polluting the environment anymore than I would in a 40 mpg car. And I'm not wasting money on a car payment and inflated insurance prices. Just remember, $30,000 buys a LOT of fuel. :-)

While I have no problem with your reasoning as to why you would choose the Frontier over an econobox, cars with better gas mileage inherently emit less. Emissions are measured as a percentage of the volume of gas exiting the tailpipe. So while its possible the percentage may be the same as a car with higher efficiency, the total emissions by volume/mass is greater. Basically a car getting 20 miles per gallon will emit twice as much pollutants as a car that gets 40 miles per gallon (assuming both actually have the same percentage of pollutants). Not judging though (My Titan averages about 12 MPG ). Just stating the facts.

*Just a quick edit about the inflated insurance comment. My mom's new $40K Quest is insured under me as I secured the financing (I got a much better rate; even with no income, haha). Same coverage as my 7 year old Titan that's already paid off. Its about $150 less every 6 months. I'd imagine the same would happen if I put a brand new econobox on the policy as well.

[Jesda]

I'm pretty sure I was looking at the whole picture.

I'm looking at the wider spectrum of consumer activity and what people perceive as their needs and wants. The whole picture includes people who sacrifice comfort, space, style, prestige, and driving enjoyment for a few measly dollars saved on fuel. And as seen during the oil spike of 2008, they'll even trade in their trucks with upside-down loans, pissing more money away than if they had kept their old vehicles.

That's nearsightedness. That's the broader point I'm trying to get at.

We're all subjected to scarcity -- all resources, including time and energy, are limited. The wealthy deal with scarcity. The poor deal with scarcity. No one is immune.

What are the costs, savings, and opportunity costs of making various compromises? While some considerations, like steering, ride, and handling, are down to one's personal preferences, the fuel economy issue is exaggerated by marketing- and media-driven hysteria, causing some to make costly compromises they don't really have to. And "costly" doesn't necessarily involve a number on a spreadsheet. "Costly" in this case refers to the sacrifices you make in space, comfort, and pleasure.

Penny wise, pound foolish?

There's a fine line between practical and miserly.

[C-Kwik]

The whole picture also includes those who make smart financial decisions like getting out of a truck that gets 12-15 mpg and get into a new or used cheap high efficiency car. While it may be more costly in the long term to do this, the reality is people still have to consider the short term as well. If high gas prices have caused a person or family to have to really tighten the reigns on spending, if they can work out a way to reduce the monthly expense level (perhaps by extending the payments on the new car over more months along with the lower fuel costs and maybe even lower insurance), then that's not necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps that gives them more comfort around the home. Maybe that gives the parents the ability to save up to allow their kid to go to prom or buy a yearbook. Is it wrong for a parent to put some of their kid's needs and wants before their own? Its an entirely subjective matter. However, the cost of a vehicle and the cost of operation is very quantitative and as a result has a very direct impact on one's finances. And while I am in agreement that people have to consider different compromises, perhaps they DID consider all the options and those ARE the compromises they made.

[Jesda]

You just described the behavior thay separates the middle class from the rich. Short term decisions driven by fear and expensive debt obligations keep households one paycheck away from foreclosure.

[nissangirl74]

This reminds me of the Cash for Clunkers debacle.

[Veriest1]

The whole picture also includes those who make smart financial decisions like getting out of a truck that gets 12-15 mpg and get into a new or used cheap high efficiency car. While it may be more costly in the long term to do this, the reality is people still have to consider the short term as well. If high gas prices have caused a person or family to have to really tighten the reigns on spending, if they can work out a way to reduce the monthly expense level (perhaps by extending the payments on the new car over more months along with the lower fuel costs and maybe even lower insurance), then that's not necessarily a bad thing.

If a family needs to free up income this bad they'd be better off going to a solid used gas saver that gets around 30mpg and costs under 10k in order to kill their monthly payments, lower insurance costs, and save money on gas.

Slightly off topic but this thread made me interested in running the current numbers on my DRZ400S. I saved $210.48 by using my motorcycle to run errands and commute vs. driving the xterra over the last 1500 miles. This thing is dirt cheap and will pay for it's OTD cost in gas savings at about the 20k mile mark. And it's a ton of fun to have around. It makes me want to sell the sports cars.

[Kompresshun]

If a family needs to free up income this bad they'd be better off going to a solid used gas saver that gets around 30mpg and costs under 10k in order to kill their monthly payments, lower insurance costs, and save money on gas.

Exactly the point I keep trying to make. It's a foolish decision, if you're already strapped out, to think that going out and buying a newer economy car to replace your gas guzzler is going to fix your problem. If you're in that much of a bind, you need to be looking at ways to eliminate your payment or drastically lower it. It may be easier to trade in and refinance the difference, but it most certainly is not going to save you money overall, while it may slightly reduce your monthly debt, it's going to extend and increase your long term debt, and that is not solving your problem, it's merely extending it further.

I understand that some people don't care about what they drive, as long as their saving money, but if that's the case, then you shouldn't care if you're driving a new Elantra or a 97 Honda Civic that you bought with cash either. Save yourself some money, rather than extending your debt and dong the easy thing. That's the biggest problem, is the latter isn't easy, so most people avoid it. It involves research, time, and effort

[Eikon]

I understand that some people don't care about what they drive, as long as their saving money, but if that's the case, then you shouldn't care if you're driving a new Elantra or a 97 Honda Civic that you bought with cash either. Save yourself some money, rather than extending your debt and dong the easy thing. That's the biggest problem, is the latter isn't easy, so most people avoid it. It involves research, time, and effort

Funny you should say that..

I just bought a 98 Civic 4dr 5spd w/ 191k miles on it. It should get me 35 mpg.. maybe more after a little tune-up. Paid $2k cash for it. I plan to put a ton of miles on it this summer commuting to and from work. It's not very nice, but it should be reliable, efficient, and do what I need it to do. The A/C even works!

[Kompresshun]

Funny you should say that..

I just bought a 98 Civic 4dr 5spd w/ 191k miles on it. It should get me 35 mpg.. maybe more after a little tune-up. Paid $2k cash for it. I plan to put a ton of miles on it this summer commuting to and from work. It's not very nice, but it should be reliable, efficient, and do what I need it to do. The A/C even works!

Nice find Seth! The Civics are solid little cars for the money too. I'm trying to convince my father in law to buy something similar, when they relocate to DC, rather than buying a hybrid and spend a lot more money.

Are you using it to replace something, or are you adding it to the fleet?

[Jesda]

What CKwik describes though is a very plausible situation. Its dumb, but people are dumb, and they do it. :| Ugh. If I was in that situation I'd at least find something to eat up the negative equity on my truck.


These debate threads would be more fun if I had consistent access to the internet.

[Veriest1]

What CKwik describes though is a very plausible situation. Its dumb, but people are dumb, and they do it.

Sadly people do it every day.

I'm not exactly convinced it's because they're "dumb.." Obviously it's dumb not to consider alternatives but it seems like a greater and greater percentage of our society is incapable of independent thought. I'm certain that about 80-90% of "dumb" people are capable of learning but it's easier not to.

[hannibal]

A coworker traded in her Grand Cherokee for a 2010 Escalade Hybrid. She has a $600 or $700 per month car payment for 72 months. She loves telling me about her new truck, and I haveto bite my tongue. I told she didn't need a new truck (even a hybrid). She also passed on a 2010 Yukon Hybrid that was priced a few $1000 less. She just had to have the Escalade.

I think she is a good example of your typical buyer.

[Eikon]

Funny you should say that..

I just bought a 98 Civic 4dr 5spd w/ 191k miles on it. It should get me 35 mpg.. maybe more after a little tune-up. Paid $2k cash for it. I plan to put a ton of miles on it this summer commuting to and from work. It's not very nice, but it should be reliable, efficient, and do what I need it to do. The A/C even works!

Nice find Seth! The Civics are solid little cars for the money too. I'm trying to convince my father in law to buy something similar, when they relocate to DC, rather than buying a hybrid and spend a lot more money.

Are you using it to replace something, or are you adding it to the fleet?

I sold my Kouki 240.. We turned in the Corolla at the end of May as it was a lease. (actually sold it back to the dealer for $300 over the buyout amount). So, I have been driving my dad's camry.. but felt guilty putting on crazy miles on it. My problem is that I'm technically an intern for the next couple months, so even if I could get financed (not sure since it's not a full time permanent job), I don't want to commit to any monthly car payment in case I'm unemployed come Sept. So the Civic should be a good way to pile on some miles over the summer at very low cost and still maintain financial freedom and flexibility so that I can do what I please later in the year.

The only real risk involved is the "what if" regarding maintenance and reliability. 190k isn't terrible for a civic, so I'm not expecting too many problems... but I guess you never know.

[Kompresshun]

Sounds like you did the right thing Seth, it's a good car to hold on to, as long as it's dependable. Plus it's saving you money as well and if I had something like that, I'd hold on to it just so I could get something more fun to drive down the road, then simply use that as a commuter vehicle.

I wouldn't worry about the maintenance and reliability, unless it starts staying broken more than fixed. Drive it until the wheels fall off and save up the money for something cool!