http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/TSBScans/sb628719.pdf
The recommeded procedure to correct tire vibration problems.
Pretty much applicable to all performance tires.
See why I say tire maintenance can cost you $250 x 4 =$1,000 per year...........if you are a perfectionist.
3 hour tire balance after each rotation
For new (replacement) tires, is it then advisable to mount and balance, drive for a period, then check the RFI? The advice indicates trying to use the Hunter 9700 on brand new, cold tires would not produce good results. I did this once, taking my new tires to a shop, having the RFI tests done, on new, cold tires. The results were disappointing. After a time, I had it done again, and there was a big improvement. They were Michelins, so all of them were well under 10 lbs.
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s13sr20chris
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Follow the steps closely in the TSB and you will see it could take up to 3 hours to do the job correctly. That's what warranty pays in extreme cases on the Q.
But luckily once you have set the tire/rim position to minimal radial forces, it changes only slowly, unless you bend or distort a wheel or the tire starts ripping cords from a side impact.However if you remount and flip tires to compensate for inside directional heel toe feathering this will change it [radial force] some even if you mark the positions and exact flip them.
No way a shop like ours can even breakeven at $25 per tire, we need $90 per technican per real hour.The tire shops that only charge $25 per tire must be using "cheap labor" or not covering their costs or doing a quick and dirty job.Guess if you could pay a highly qualified tire guy $8-9 Hr vs our $22 + benefits you might make it.
Like most tire shops they would be using a coarse sensitivity setting.
The problem is Infiniti specs 14 pounds [RF] as ok as long as the axle combination is 28 pounds or under. Way too high, as Michelin [premium Z,Y, W] doesn't let a 5 pound [RF] tire leave the factory.
9 times out of 10, the real problem gets traced to the wheels on new or almost new [under 3,000 miles] Michelin tires.
The major difficulty is the 30 minute at speed predrive and the narrow window from pulling into shop and getting the car up on the lift..............timing must be perfect............or you get a distorted balance procedure!
See why we no longer sell tires or wheels and just offer a simple as is rotate and spin balance [to 2-4 grams] with other work.
Make sure you get PRINT OUTS as the 9700 should be equipt with a printer for history.
But luckily once you have set the tire/rim position to minimal radial forces, it changes only slowly, unless you bend or distort a wheel or the tire starts ripping cords from a side impact.However if you remount and flip tires to compensate for inside directional heel toe feathering this will change it [radial force] some even if you mark the positions and exact flip them.
No way a shop like ours can even breakeven at $25 per tire, we need $90 per technican per real hour.The tire shops that only charge $25 per tire must be using "cheap labor" or not covering their costs or doing a quick and dirty job.Guess if you could pay a highly qualified tire guy $8-9 Hr vs our $22 + benefits you might make it.
Like most tire shops they would be using a coarse sensitivity setting.
The problem is Infiniti specs 14 pounds [RF] as ok as long as the axle combination is 28 pounds or under. Way too high, as Michelin [premium Z,Y, W] doesn't let a 5 pound [RF] tire leave the factory.
9 times out of 10, the real problem gets traced to the wheels on new or almost new [under 3,000 miles] Michelin tires.
The major difficulty is the 30 minute at speed predrive and the narrow window from pulling into shop and getting the car up on the lift..............timing must be perfect............or you get a distorted balance procedure!
See why we no longer sell tires or wheels and just offer a simple as is rotate and spin balance [to 2-4 grams] with other work.
Make sure you get PRINT OUTS as the 9700 should be equipt with a printer for history.
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maxnix
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1995 Infiniti Q45t
2000 Infiniti Q45
Doing It Right Makes a Difference
Just for the record, Phil did a exemplary balancing using the Coats 2000 ISB when he mounted the Firestone Firehawk SZ50 EP 245/50-16 on my wife's 2000 Q45. She (who is not automotively inclined in the least) could not believe the improvement over her S rated no-name tossers.
Boss was stunned she would drive 37 miles to have the procedure performed correctly by someone who was skilled and cared about the quality of the service.
Boss was stunned she would drive 37 miles to have the procedure performed correctly by someone who was skilled and cared about the quality of the service.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Every tire wheel vibration that DOESN'T occur means longer suspension/rubber isolated component life.Rubber is good for only so many cycles of vibration dmpening [isolation].
People should test drive brand new Q/G/M to see how their old Q was brand new and what they have to fix to achieve similarity.
Don't think that there was very much improvement in 13 years other than the isolated front subframe beginning in 97......the newer stiffer tires are harsher [15">18"] than the orginal 90-93 Michelins.
People should test drive brand new Q/G/M to see how their old Q was brand new and what they have to fix to achieve similarity.
Don't think that there was very much improvement in 13 years other than the isolated front subframe beginning in 97......the newer stiffer tires are harsher [15">18"] than the orginal 90-93 Michelins.
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
Unfortunately the Coats is just a gussied up fancy conventional balancer.
If members think about it how does balancing WITHOUT LOAD on the tire come any where close to the real situation on a tire wheel turning on the road.........much better than the old bubble balance but it won't solve the fine tuning problems.
Any tire wheel that has more than 14 grams of add on weights per side to make perfect 0/0 on a Coats [or any other brand] of conventional balancer will usually show significant problems when immediately placed on a Hunter 9700.
Hunter has problems of its own with technican training and the fact that they never actually load the tire to the full vehicle loaded weight = 1200 pounds of froce against the tire'The earlier Hunter models could only apply 700 pounds of force to the tire, some shops use half this to extend machine life!
Michelin test radial force at 85% of max tire load roughly equal to the real load going stright at a steady speed.
What this means is even the Hunter 9700 is UNDER REPORTING the REAL radial force AMOUNT. But once you find the minimizing match locations you have done all you can whether the load is 300 or 700 pounds.
If members think about it how does balancing WITHOUT LOAD on the tire come any where close to the real situation on a tire wheel turning on the road.........much better than the old bubble balance but it won't solve the fine tuning problems.
Any tire wheel that has more than 14 grams of add on weights per side to make perfect 0/0 on a Coats [or any other brand] of conventional balancer will usually show significant problems when immediately placed on a Hunter 9700.
Hunter has problems of its own with technican training and the fact that they never actually load the tire to the full vehicle loaded weight = 1200 pounds of froce against the tire'The earlier Hunter models could only apply 700 pounds of force to the tire, some shops use half this to extend machine life!
Michelin test radial force at 85% of max tire load roughly equal to the real load going stright at a steady speed.
What this means is even the Hunter 9700 is UNDER REPORTING the REAL radial force AMOUNT. But once you find the minimizing match locations you have done all you can whether the load is 300 or 700 pounds.
Brian, thanks for the kind words.
Q45tech, it makes sense that a smaller company cannot be profitable by doing such labor-intensive work, time and time again, at no extra charge. That's the beauty, I suppose, of working for a billion dollar <customer service> oriented tire company. We cover our costs by making people customers for life. Not just a nameless customer with a free rotation/rebalance, but a name and a face we know, greet, and treat with respect, a handshake, and a big welcome. We're allowed a little bit of slack(losing money) on this issue of rebalancing for free, all in the name of keeping the customer(aka paycheck) happy. Happy customers tell their friends, family, and coworkers about a good experience. Word of mouth is still king of all advertising.
And no, we don't work for $8-9 per hour.
You bring up a good point about match mounting being key. I couldn't agree more. "9 times out of 10 the problem is traced to the wheels..." another good point that I agree on. Let's face it though, if you've got wheel runout that measures in the low thousandths, and tires that run extremely smooth, you're already ahead of the curve. Chances are you'll have little or no trouble with balance, while things are still fairly new.
Brian, in case Q45tech's words have moved you to consider other balancing options, my old store (lakewood) uses the Hunter9700, as do several other Les Schwab Tire Centers and Discount Tire locations in the area. Best of luck!
Q45tech, it makes sense that a smaller company cannot be profitable by doing such labor-intensive work, time and time again, at no extra charge. That's the beauty, I suppose, of working for a billion dollar <customer service> oriented tire company. We cover our costs by making people customers for life. Not just a nameless customer with a free rotation/rebalance, but a name and a face we know, greet, and treat with respect, a handshake, and a big welcome. We're allowed a little bit of slack(losing money) on this issue of rebalancing for free, all in the name of keeping the customer(aka paycheck) happy. Happy customers tell their friends, family, and coworkers about a good experience. Word of mouth is still king of all advertising.
And no, we don't work for $8-9 per hour.
You bring up a good point about match mounting being key. I couldn't agree more. "9 times out of 10 the problem is traced to the wheels..." another good point that I agree on. Let's face it though, if you've got wheel runout that measures in the low thousandths, and tires that run extremely smooth, you're already ahead of the curve. Chances are you'll have little or no trouble with balance, while things are still fairly new.
Brian, in case Q45tech's words have moved you to consider other balancing options, my old store (lakewood) uses the Hunter9700, as do several other Les Schwab Tire Centers and Discount Tire locations in the area. Best of luck!
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maxnix
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1995 Infiniti Q45t
2000 Infiniti Q45
All in the Balance
I think the machine that Phil Smith used at Les Schwab is the Coats XR 1800, which perhaps does not have a Road Force Balance mode. Anyway, the wheels spun right and the tires spun right, and I'll let Phil supply any other details as he did it and I was far away.
Hopefully, the lifetime balance applies, and if so, we do have recourse to a Hunter GSP 9700 if necessary.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45
Discover the power of the button!
Hopefully, the lifetime balance applies, and if so, we do have recourse to a Hunter GSP 9700 if necessary.__________________Brian1995 Q45 & Q45t & 2000 Q45
Discover the power of the button!
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Q45tech
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1995 G20t 5 speed 334,000 miles 16" 2002 wheels - 205/50/16 Sr20ve vvl
My guess is less than 1% of the vehicles on the road [200million]have ALL tires/wheels that are anywhere close to optimum balance. Including the 16 million new vehicles each year after 90 days.
We just get numb [use to vibrations], blame them on the roads, etc., after all it's just hard or expensive to solve the problems.
After using the vibration meter [accelerometer] a month measuring steering wheel vibrations on the same 5 miles of Interstate. I didn't realize how sensitive the human hands were and how sensitive minute changes in tire air pressure, sway bar coupling, and temperature [changes shock chacteristics] could be measured and perceived.
I intentionally mis balanced my front tires by adding 5 grams opposite the perfect balance points............quite noticable and measurable.
Sampled many tires before they were rebalanced.....most had a 25-30[mean]-40 gram [extreme was 68 grams] per tire imbalance before they saw fit to pay for a rebalance.
I can measure the upward and side to side vibration [acceleration/displacement] of the steering wheel in 0.0001"/per second [there are 13-16 such vibrations per second] with a 5% accurracy while driving..................this up/down hop [quiver] is the tires radial force differences and how the are transmitted to the steering rack and body. Time/phase delays because the seat/frame/body is isolated via springs/shocks/rubber bushings vs, steering wheel direct connection to the rack/tie rods/knuckle without springs!
Lexus [LS400] uses a tuned isolated subframe on the front and a fast weak shock absorber on the rack to dampen the right side tie rod vibration [right side of road is rougher than center].
We just get numb [use to vibrations], blame them on the roads, etc., after all it's just hard or expensive to solve the problems.
After using the vibration meter [accelerometer] a month measuring steering wheel vibrations on the same 5 miles of Interstate. I didn't realize how sensitive the human hands were and how sensitive minute changes in tire air pressure, sway bar coupling, and temperature [changes shock chacteristics] could be measured and perceived.
I intentionally mis balanced my front tires by adding 5 grams opposite the perfect balance points............quite noticable and measurable.
Sampled many tires before they were rebalanced.....most had a 25-30[mean]-40 gram [extreme was 68 grams] per tire imbalance before they saw fit to pay for a rebalance.
I can measure the upward and side to side vibration [acceleration/displacement] of the steering wheel in 0.0001"/per second [there are 13-16 such vibrations per second] with a 5% accurracy while driving..................this up/down hop [quiver] is the tires radial force differences and how the are transmitted to the steering rack and body. Time/phase delays because the seat/frame/body is isolated via springs/shocks/rubber bushings vs, steering wheel direct connection to the rack/tie rods/knuckle without springs!
Lexus [LS400] uses a tuned isolated subframe on the front and a fast weak shock absorber on the rack to dampen the right side tie rod vibration [right side of road is rougher than center].