Ok so i bought a 1993 Nissan 240sx! Its got 152,600 miles on the BONE STOCK KA24DE engine. It has the "marble in the tin can" noise coming from the front of the engine! So im pretty sure that its the upper and maybe side timing guide hittng/rubbing against the inside of the valve cover! I will post a video of it running on youtube tommorrow! I didnt take off the valve cover yet to see if thats for sure the problem! Mainly my whole question to everyone is... if i remove the guides (other than lower) from hitting the valve cover, will i still be able to daily drive my car, and still get on it, and revving high, without the timing chain ripping off?????? There is a link here on nico club that tells you exactly how to do it! Is this correct????? My car also seems as if its running kindav rough,like i never been past 4k rpm cause i feel the engine isnt running smooth, so i didnt want to hurt it! im gonna change the plugs, wires, and distributer cap soon, hopefully it will feel smoother when higher rpms! Also i know theres gonna be sludge inside of a engine that has 152k on it, so i want to know what kind of oil to use, and should i use any attitives like lucas oil stabilizer with it?? And does z max work?? I heard its suppose to clean slude out your engine, and make it run smoother???? Idk but if anyone knows of any attitives that i can put into it to clean slude out from inside of engine, let me know!

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/fix-yo ... attle.html


Also i have a little bit of water spitting out of my exhaust! My friend told me that i may need to tighten the valves! How hard is that to do, and is that what the problem is?? Please let me know about this too!! Thanks!!!

I'm not sure about the timing chain guide, but seafoam works good in the crankcase at the ratio of 1.5oz/quart of oil. There is an article in general chat that is more specific on how to use it. I ran some through my crankcase and it worked fine.

Also; if you ever remove parts like the front cover, valve cover, or oil pan; clean any gunk out manually before reinstalling them. It is that much more clean surface area your oil will see during operation.

oh ya when i remove the valve cover ill clean as much as i can. But i heard of seafoaming but i dont know what it is, or what it does! Can you send me that link seang to that nico article about seafoaming? I need to remove my timing guides, and replace valve cover gasket, and do a oil change and tune up! I dont wanna say its running rough, but it feels like its not running smooth!

Here is that article: post5867622.html?hilit=seafoam#p5867622

Inline 4 cylinder engines with flat-plane cranks have imperfect secondary balance because the pistons travel faster at TDC than at BDC, this creates an up-down vibration at twice the crank speed. Some larger 4cyls (2 liters and up) use balance shafts, but the KA does not, so some level of NVH is not unrealistic.

Thanks for that article! Everything else you said idk what the hell your talking bout! LOL

pop the vc off and remove the top guide. It might have broken and is rubbing against the chain which is common. If you still get some noise then you can replace the upper chain, tensioner and guide by removing that front cover. That should eliminate the noise.

I dont think cleaning is gonna help. Its probably the guide. If not, get a chain kit before it jumps.

can you remove the valvecover only and get to the top guide?

fiznowler wrote:can you remove the valvecover only and get to the top guide?

Yep.

OP, my s13 was doing the same thing a few years ago. I originally thought it was the timing chain death rattle, but once I got the valve cover and crank case cover off I noticed the broken guide just sitting ontop of my timing chain and cam gears. I chucked that in the trash once I found that Nissan had deemed the timing chain guides unneccessary and removed them from S14 KA's.

I replaced my timing chain anyways but forgot to take out the lower guard, so it stayed in there for years until I got around to it this summer. It wasn't causeing any problems or making any noise, but I had some leaks I needed to seal up and just knowing that last guide was still in there annoyed the hell out of me.

Anyways, I found pulled that lower guide out to (along with a 248/232 cam swap) and now I wish I had left it in! My KA is waaaay noisier/rattley with the lower guard removed! Did this happen to anyone else who removed both their guards?

OutToWinPAHC wrote:I dont think cleaning is gonna help. Its probably the guide. If not, get a chain kit before it jumps.

Care to elaborate? before it jumps?

simmode1 wrote:

fiznowler wrote:can you remove the valvecover only and get to the top guide?

Yep.OP, my s13 was doing the same thing a few years ago. I originally thought it was the timing chain death rattle, but once I got the valve cover and crank case cover off I noticed the broken guide just sitting ontop of my timing chain and cam gears. I chucked that in the trash once I found that Nissan had deemed the timing chain guides unneccessary and removed them from S14 KA's.

I replaced my timing chain anyways but forgot to take out the lower guard, so it stayed in there for years until I got around to it this summer. It wasn't causeing any problems or making any noise, but I had some leaks I needed to seal up and just knowing that last guide was still in there annoyed the hell out of me.

Anyways, I found pulled that lower guide out to (along with a 248/232 cam swap) and now I wish I had left it in! My KA is waaaay noisier/rattley with the lower guard removed! Did this happen to anyone else who removed both their guards?

Timing chain death rattle?

Redevil wrote:pop the vc off and remove the top guide. It might have broken and is rubbing against the chain which is common. If you still get some noise then you can replace the upper chain, tensioner and guide by removing that front cover. That should eliminate the noise.

Ya i think its the upper guide, but cant you take off the side guide too??? My engine is running a little rough, im gonna fix this guide thing so its running good for me to rev higher, and im gonna sea foam it, then do a tune up! Plugs, wires, and distributer cap! hopefully after that it will be running good again!

how much chain slack is allowed on the exhaust side?

simmode1 wrote:

fiznowler wrote:can you remove the valvecover only and get to the top guide?

Yep.

OP, my s13 was doing the same thing a few years ago. I originally thought it was the timing chain death rattle, but once I got the valve cover and crank case cover off I noticed the broken guide just sitting ontop of my timing chain and cam gears. I chucked that in the trash once I found that Nissan had deemed the timing chain guides unneccessary and removed them from S14 KA's.

I replaced my timing chain anyways but forgot to take out the lower guard, so it stayed in there for years until I got around to it this summer. It wasn't causeing any problems or making any noise, but I had some leaks I needed to seal up and just knowing that last guide was still in there annoyed the hell out of me.

Anyways, I found pulled that lower guide out to (along with a 248/232 cam swap) and now I wish I had left it in! My KA is waaaay noisier/rattley with the lower guard removed! Did this happen to anyone else who removed both their guards?

Are you talking about the guide next to the upper chain tensioner or the guide below it?

I think the one below it is necessary. Only the very top one is extraneous. I removed the middle guide too and I still get a bit of noise, but not as much as before.

Hydrocarbon (Fuel) + Oxygen (burning the fuel in O2) ---->H2O + CO2 + Energy.
The water you see coming out of the exhaust is normal, its the water vapor from the reactions going on inside the motor.

I bumped this thread from 2010 asking about the upper chain slack.

Hello, noob here, I just bought a 93 240sx/se manual swap - and it has this same noise. I have read this entire thread and I have some questions! What is the Timing Chain Rattle of Death? I can access and remove this guard by removing only the VC? I did read that RTB and/or liquid gasket is a necessity because KA's leak oil out of the top/front & top/rear bolt holes? True or False?

Also is it safe to still daily without this fix for the time being? Quite concerned since I have to drive 25 miles one direction at highway speeds to bring her home.

Thanks in advance,

Jake

100Shxdow wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 08, 2020 5:31 pm

Hello, noob here, I just bought a 93 240sx/se manual swap - and it has this same noise. I have read this entire thread and I have some questions! What is the Timing Chain Rattle of Death? I can access and remove this guard by removing only the VC? I did read that RTB and/or liquid gasket is a necessity because KA's leak oil out of the top/front & top/rear bolt holes? True or False?

Also is it safe to still daily without this fix for the time being? Quite concerned since I have to drive 25 miles one direction at highway speeds to bring her home.

Thanks in advance,

Jake

Timing chain rattle of death is when the upper timing chain guides start to come apart/delaminate and you can hear them ticking against the timing chain. At some point, they'll break loose and can get sucked up in the oil pickup in the oil pan and cause a loss of oil pressure, or wedge somewhere and mess up the cam gears, or might just break off and cause no damage at all. It's a gamble really. If you can hear them hitting on the timing chain it's just best to remove them altogether before they can cause damage. The upper timing chain on the KA24DE is short enough, they aren't needed as referenced in the Nissan Tech Bulletin NTB 98-055A: https://workshop-manuals.com/nissan/alt ... ain_noise/

https://www.nicoclub.com/archives/fix-y ... attle.html

If what you're hearing is in fact the timing chain rattling against the guide, you're rolling the dice. It's very easy to remove the guides as detailed in the link above. I have had no leakage issues with a FelPro valve cover gasket set. Make sure you're getting the correct one; there is a different part number between S13 and S14 KAs. Make sure it's the black one not the blue one too. The blue material gaskets have an issue leaking into the spark plug holes in my experience. The key is getting the mating surfaces properly cleaned, torquing the valve cover bolts IN SEQUENCE (don't just gronk down on them with a 3/8" ratchet, you'll break them off and really have a bad day.) Look up the factory service manual for your car on this site and you'll have everything you need to know.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/use-ni ... abase.html

The article on the upper chain guide is the gold standard.

Follow the instructions therein, and then spend a LOT of time reading here: 240sxtech.com

We've been compiling data since 1997, so it's a great place to start for a n00b. You'll have way less questions, way more confidence, and you'll be prepared for whatever comes.

Welcome aboard.