2013 Quest transmission issue

[raven69david]

I’m getting ready to buy a 2013 LE for very little money die to a transmission issue that’s been reported by the original/current owner. They state when the van is driven for about an hour, the van will no longer drive. They need to pull over and let the van cool down before it can start working again. The van has 220k and the transmission has only been flushed once at 180k. Thoughts on what I should check first?

TIA,
David

[VStar650CL]

Chances are it's going into overheat protection. The TCM's on the '09B transmissions didn't have resident judder diagnosis, but they did go into self-protection if the fluid temperature got into the mid-200's. Then they simply wouldn't move until they cooled down, but it wouldn't light any warning lamps.

When an '09B or '10A has suffered repeated overtemps, it almost always means a damaged belt and an unsalvageable trans. Your best bet is to get a copy of CVTz50 and a compatible bluetooth-OBD dongle. That will show you any codes present, but more importantly, the "CVT INFORMATION" button will let you read CVT-A and CVT-B, the temperature record for the transmission. Both should be zero. If either one has a number above about 5, especially coupled with codes like P0746, P0840, P0845, or P1778, you can pretty well assume the unit is toast.

[raven69david]

Thanks for the response. Not sure I can get CVTz50 since I don’t use an android. I was planning on running a diagnostic with my TOPDON AD500 which can scan transmission information.

Looks like it just started happening not too long ago and the van is a 1 owner. My initial assumption was that the fluid had never been changed but the CARFAX shows it was changed on 5/18/24. I’m trying to source a reman’d unit and there are many used ones in my area.

What causes this issue/behavior to begin with?

[VStar650CL]

Looks like it just started happening not too long ago and the van is a 1 owner. My initial assumption was that the fluid had never been changed but the CARFAX shows it was changed on 5/18/24. I’m trying to source a reman’d unit and there are many used ones in my area.

What causes this issue/behavior to begin with?

Hot fluid. It's possible they overfilled it when they did the service. Overfilling causes foam which in turn causes "hot spots" on the belt and can quickly overheat the trans. The "behavior" is software, the TCM shuts the transmission down when the fluid temp gets too high. Back in the early days of CVT's, Nissan went out of their way to "black box" it as much as possible to both technicians and the public. There were no reman kits, little info, no warning lamps, and for the first few years a "lifetime fluid" claim. It was all baloney, of course, but Nissan was invested in it so changes took a looooong time.

Anyway, most shop scanners (even high end ones) can't read CVT-A/CVT-B, so you might want to get a 'Droid emulator or befriend somebody with a 'Droid to see how bad things are. If it really has only heated up a few times, do a couple of consecutive fluid swaps with about 1K in between, to void most of the old fluid and assure that the level is right. Equally important, put a cooler on it immediately. Because of the way the engine box and radiator are arranged, the Quest heat exchangers are particularly inefficient and a cooler does them a world of good.

[VStar650CL]

PS - If you do need to replace the trans and opt for a used one, endeavor to find one locally which has the donor TCM available with it. That will let you code-scan the TCM to avoid buying a pig in a poke, and will also save you reprogramming the IP Char values after the swap.

[raven69david]

Looks like it just started happening not too long ago and the van is a 1 owner. My initial assumption was that the fluid had never been changed but the CARFAX shows it was changed on 5/18/24. I’m trying to source a reman’d unit and there are many used ones in my area.

What causes this issue/behavior to begin with?

Hot fluid. It's possible they overfilled it when they did the service. Overfilling causes foam which in turn causes "hot spots" on the belt and can quickly overheat the trans. The "behavior" is software, the TCM shuts the transmission down when the fluid temp gets too high. Back in the early days of CVT's, Nissan went out of their way to "black box" it as much as possible to both technicians and the public. There were no reman kits, little info, no warning lamps, and for the first few years a "lifetime fluid" claim. It was all baloney, of course, but Nissan was invested in it so changes took a looooong time.

Anyway, most shop scanners (even high end ones) can't read CVT-A/CVT-B, so you might want to get a 'Droid emulator or befriend somebody with a 'Droid to see how bad things are. If it really has only heated up a few times, do a couple of consecutive fluid swaps with about 1K in between, to void most of the old fluid and assure that the level is right. Equally important, put a cooler on it immediately. Because of the way the engine box and radiator are arranged, the Quest heat exchangers are particularly inefficient and a cooler does them a world of good.

Thank you again. I truly appreciate your expertise. Please correct me if I’m wrong with my thinking of this issue and how it might be possible to save it. The van will run normally for about an hour until it needs to be turned off and cooled down before it can start working again. If the transmission was already gone, I’d assume that it would not run at all or at least work for about an hour before it stopped working. In your opinion, does this sound logical?

[VStar650CL]

Sure, but anytime you get overheating severe enough to trigger self-protection, there's a very good chance the belt and Valve Body are both being damaged. So the real question is, did you buy the vehicle to use, or to resell? If you're turning it over, then simply making sure the fluid level is right and adding a cooler may alleviate the self-protection. It may start slipping someplace down the road, but that's caveat emptor. If you're keeping it then the answer is different, complete due diligence is called for. I'm sure you don't want you or your family stranded because some already-damaged hardware eventually broke. So the first thing you need to do is upload CVT-A/CVT-B to see how bad the problem is. If there have been more than 4 or 5 episodes, I pretty much guarantee you there have been multiple instances of judder and the belt is damaged. Fresh fluid and coolers won't fix that. If you want to inspect the belt it's doable with a borescope, this bulletin is for the '10D trannies but the '09B's use a similar belt which will exhibit damage in the same way:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/ ... 8-0001.pdf

[raven69david]

Sure, but anytime you get overheating severe enough to trigger self-protection, there's a very good chance the belt and Valve Body are both being damaged. So the real question is, did you buy the vehicle to use, or to resell? If you're turning it over, then simply making sure the fluid level is right and adding a cooler may alleviate the self-protection. It may start slipping someplace down the road, but that's caveat emptor. If you're keeping it then the answer is different, complete due diligence is called for. I'm sure you don't want you or your family stranded because some already-damaged hardware eventually broke. So the first thing you need to do is upload CVT-A/CVT-B to see how bad the problem is. If there have been more than 4 or 5 episodes, I pretty much guarantee you there have been multiple instances of judder and the belt is damaged. Fresh fluid and coolers won't fix that. If you want to inspect the belt it's doable with a borescope, this bulletin is for the '10D trannies but the '09B's use a similar belt which will exhibit damage in the same way:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/ ... 8-0001.pdf

I definitely plan on keeping it. The van is a 1 owner with impeccable records from the Nissan dealer. The only thing they overlooked was the transmission, the Achilles heel of this van.

I saw what the OEM color looked like and no wonder these units heat up the fluid so much. Looks like I’ll need to add an external cooler and then monitor the temperature via the scan tool’s Live Data.

[VStar650CL]

That pic isn't a cooler, it's a warmer, and your Quest already has one (albeit the flat-square type and not that one). We call those "beehives" because they resemble a beekeeper's box. The arrangement is kind of bassackwards because the beehive and the heat exchanger (embedded in the radiator) work at cross purposes, the beehive heats the fluid and then the exchanger has to cool it off again.

Would it have made more sense to embed a fluid thermostat into the beehive? Sure.
Did they save $1.00 by not doing that? Sure.
Did they blow up a lot of transmissions because of it (including under warranty)? Positively!

The Quest has a particular problem because the outlet tank temperatures in the radiator tend to run hotter than most other models. That leaves the heat exchanger working with one arm figuratively tied behind its back whenever the engine is working hard. Adding a radiating cooler like a Hayden 512 or 697 in series with the heat exchanger improves things, giving the system extra cooling power when the outlet tank temp rises. When I talk about adding a cooler, that's what I'm talking about.

[raven69david]

That pic isn't a cooler, it's a warmer, and your Quest already has one (albeit the flat-square type and not that one). We call those "beehives" because they resemble a beekeeper's box. The arrangement is kind of bassackwards because the beehive and the heat exchanger (embedded in the radiator) work at cross purposes, the beehive heats the fluid and then the exchanger has to cool it off again.

Would it have made more sense to embed a fluid thermostat into the beehive? Sure.
Did they save $1.00 by not doing that? Sure.
Did they blow up a lot of transmissions because of it (including under warranty)? Positively!

The Quest has a particular problem because the outlet tank temperatures in the radiator tend to run hotter than most other models. That leaves the heat exchanger working with one arm figuratively tied behind its back whenever the engine is working hard. Adding a radiating cooler like a Hayden 512 or 697 in series with the heat exchanger improves things, giving the system extra cooling power when the outlet tank temp rises. When I talk about adding a cooler, that's what I'm talking about.

I just purchased a Hayden cooler and bought a cheap android phone and a Veepeak Bluetooth dongle so I can download CVTz50 and use it to scan the trans. As long as the van drives without any issues for 15-20 minutes in this Texas heat, I’d be comfortable completing the purchase and then adding the cooler as soon as I get home. Thoughts?

[VStar650CL]

Sure. It sounds like the van is worth fixing up even if the transmission turns out to be a loss, but it will be a lot easier to figure out the latter once you can pick the TCM's brain. Post back what you find.

[raven69david]

Sure. It sounds like the van is worth fixing up even if the transmission turns out to be a loss, but it will be a lot easier to figure out the latter once you can pick the TCM's brain. Post back what you find.

I can’t thank you enough for your help. Your encouragement and insight really helped me in solidifying my decision. Let’s hope it’s worth it.

To be continued…

[raven69david]

Sure. It sounds like the van is worth fixing up even if the transmission turns out to be a loss, but it will be a lot easier to figure out the latter once you can pick the TCM's brain. Post back what you find.

Is there a diagram that shows the inlet/outlet locations of the vehicle so I can make sure I route the correct lines to/from the external cooler? I couldn’t find them in the FSM.

[VStar650CL]

On beehives, the larger lines are coolant. On that style of square one, the port pointing down is the pressure port, the one pointing up is return. Generally the most convenient routing for a cooler is to send the pressure port to the new cooler, the new cooler outlet to the heat exchanger inlet, and leave the return line from the heat exchanger outlet alone. On the '09B Quests there's a coupler in the pressure line in between the hive and radiator, that's usually a good spot to reconcile hose sizes if the new cooler hoses are 3/8" (the OE hoses are 8mm ~ 5/16").

[raven69david]

On beehives, the larger lines are coolant. On that style of square one, the port pointing down is the pressure port, the one pointing up is return. Generally the most convenient routing for a cooler is to send the pressure port to the new cooler, the new cooler outlet to the heat exchanger inlet, and leave the return line from the heat exchanger outlet alone. On the '09B Quests there's a coupler in the pressure line in between the hive and radiator, that's usually a good spot to reconcile hose sizes if the new cooler hoses are 3/8" (the OE hoses are 8mm ~ 5/16").

Thank you. My plan was to run the cooler inline with the rest of the system. I was going to disconnect the return line on the radiator, run that to the cooler and then connect the return line, already attached to the beehive, to the outlet of the cooler.

[VStar650CL]

No, you're far better served to leave the heat exchanger in the loop. The radiator gets coolant flow before the beehive (which has its own thermostat), so taking the exchanger out of the loop will result in slower warmup. The idea isn't to run artificially cold, that causes extra wear. The idea is to reach a good temperature quickly and keep it there.

[VStar650CL]

PS - And the pressure line (lower on the radiator) is much easier to plumb to the front than the return line.

[raven69david]

PS - And the pressure line (lower on the radiator) is much easier to plumb to the front than the return line.

I plan to run the cooler in series, as the diagram in the box suggests.

[VStar650CL]

Series is the right way to go, but on almost all Nissans it's physically much easier to plumb the cooler between the pressure port and the radiator than between the return and the radiator. The reason is, on CVT's, Nissan sends the pressure port to the bottom of a crossflow radiator. The return flow comes out the top, which lets buoyancy help chase bubbles out of the heat exchanger. Putting the add-on cooler on the return side results in much longer hoses, because you need to loop underneath the radiator from the top of the radiator tank instead of the bottom. Very messy and there's no good reason for it, series is series regardless of which device is first in line. The total BTU's dumped by the installation will be the same either way.

[raven69david]

Series is the right way to go, but on almost all Nissans it's physically much easier to plumb the cooler between the pressure port and the radiator than between the return and the radiator. The reason is, on CVT's, Nissan sends the pressure port to the bottom of a crossflow radiator. The return flow comes out the top, which lets buoyancy help chase bubbles out of the heat exchanger. Putting the add-on cooler on the return side results in much longer hoses, because you need to loop underneath the radiator from the top of the radiator tank instead of the bottom. Very messy and there's no good reason for it, series is series regardless of which device is first in line. The total BTU's dumped by the installation will be the same either way.

So if I mount the cooler like this, the transmission oil connection coming out of the lower radiator should go to the bottom connection of the new cooler. The oil should then flow up the cooler and out the top connection which will then run back to the transmission. Correct?

[VStar650CL]

The hose going into the lower radiator is pressure, it comes from the transmission and not to it. Disconnect it from the radiator and connect it to the bottom of your new cooler. Then route the top of your new cooler back to the bottom of the radiator. I mentioned earlier that you'll need to reconcile the tube sizes, your OE lines will be 5/16" and the Hayden 678 uses 3/8". You'll need a pair of barbed reducers like this (brass or stainless are both okay):

I also mentioned earlier that there should already be a 5/16 x 5/16 union in the middle of the pressure line. That's usually a good spot to split and reconcile the lines.

[raven69david]

The hose going into the lower radiator is pressure, it comes from the transmission and not to it. Disconnect it from the radiator and connect it to the bottom of your new cooler. Then route the top of your new cooler back to the bottom of the radiator. I mentioned earlier that you'll need to reconcile the tube sizes, your OE lines will be 5/16" and the Hayden 678 uses 3/8". You'll need a pair of barbed reducers like this (brass or stainless are both okay):


Barbed Reducer.jpg

I also mentioned earlier that there should already be a 5/16 x 5/16 union in the middle of the pressure line. That's usually a good spot to split and reconcile the lines.

It was a show.

[VStar650CL]

Pretty crappy resolution on those pics, but I think I'm seeing 10 CVT-B's, a P0746, and a P0868? If so, you need to do a belt inspection to find out if there's anything to save. P0746 and P0868 aren't "hard" codes, they both indicate that the TCM commanded one pressure and ratio and got a different result -- i.e., the belt was slipping. With 10 overheats you're kind of on the border, if the belt checks okay then you might save it with a complete fluid change and a new Valve Body. If the belt is damaged then she's done. Break out your borescope.

[raven69david]

Pretty crappy resolution on those pics, but I think I'm seeing 10 CVT-B's, a P0746, and a P0868? If so, you need to do a belt inspection to find out if there's anything to save. P0746 and P0868 aren't "hard" codes, they both indicate that the TCM commanded one pressure and ratio and got a different result -- i.e., the belt was slipping. With 10 overheats you're kind of on the border, if the belt checks okay then you might save it with a complete fluid change and a new Valve Body. If the belt is damaged then she's done. Break out your borescope.

Calibration ID: 0000 0000 0030 0018 00E5 006D (04 89
AE 83)
5 Past/Inactive DTC:
C3902 (Stored at: 8808.0 warmed up run hours)
B1DA1 (Stored at: 2840.5 warmed up run hours)
B0802 (Stored at: 8810.0 warmed up run hours)
B0772 (Stored at: 319.5 warmed up run hours)
B12AB (Stored at: 3222.7 warmed up run hours)
CVT-A: 0 CVT-B: 0
Run hours (min 0, max 10922): 9417.0
Run hours (engine warmed up, min 0, max 10922):
6269.7
TCM ID: 31036-3WS0A

P0746
Current
PC solenoid A
L 12.79V
品
目
P1701
History
Trasmission Control Module (TCM)
目
P0868
History
Fluid pressure low
目

The CVT fluid was fresh and clean with the green tint. It didn’t smell burnt. I attempted to drive it and it would barely move. The condition of the interior looked great in the pictures, but in person it was pretty bad. Considering the totality of its condition, it was a hard pass. Even with a new transmission, the kids did a job on destroying the interior of the vehicle. It would cost more money to fix than it’s actually worth. For the asking price, there are many more available in running condition for about $1000 or so more.

[VStar650CL]

Still sounds like a slippy belt. The P1701 is likely a battery issue, but the other two are typical of a belt which is dead or dying. If the interior is screwed too, I'd give that a hard pass. Now at least you have a tool to check the next candidate.

[raven69david]

Still sounds like a slippy belt. The P1701 is likely a battery issue, but the other two are typical of a belt which is dead or dying. If the interior is screwed too, I'd give that a hard pass. Now at least you have a tool to check the next candidate.

Thanks to you, I saved myself a lot of grief but I did learn what to do when it comes to buying a Quest. I can’t thank you enough for all the help and wisdom you contributed to my journey with this particular Quest. You’re an amazing person and such an asset to this community.

[VStar650CL]

[raven69david]

Another “winner”

[VStar650CL]

Yowch, 3 major overheats and a whole lot of slip-slide. That one's a big mess.

Welp, that's exactly why CVTz50 is invaluable when Nissan-shopping. Case closed.

[raven69david]

Yowch, 3 major overheats and a whole lot of slip-slide. That one's a big mess.

Welp, that's exactly why CVTz50 is invaluable when Nissan-shopping. Case closed.

Exactly. It’s saved me twice now. It’s worth the $5.