2008 Rogue Crank No Start

[Greeno237]

I've got a bit of a weird one here.

My girlfriend's daily driver is a 2008 Rogue with ~230,000km. A few weeks ago it wouldn't start up, it was cranking fine, and occasionally sputtering like it was about to start, but no success. This first happened on a day it had warmed up from being -15 degrees Celsius (5F) to approximately 5 degrees Celcius (40F).

I was out of town so I tried coaching her through a few different troubleshooting steps remotely, with no luck there either. It did not appear to be a security issue, tried both keys, tried unlocking door manually, no change. She also tried WOT, 1/2 throttle, and pumping the s*** out of the pedal like an old carburated engine with no success. Eventually she found my old cheap code reader, plugged it in to find... no codes! I got home, retried all that stuff, ordered a new code reader, realized the plugs were probably installed at the factory (service manual calls for replacement at 169,000km) so I replaced the plugs, even though the old ones appeared to be fine. Also threw in a new air filter. No change. Outside temp was approximately -15 C again.

So we go away for Christmas, do the family thing and get back last night. This morning, with the temperature just above 0 C (32F), it nearly fired up on the first attempt. After trying it a few times, it fired up with me holding the pedal to the floor, then died within 1-2 seconds. I repeated that process a few times, and eventually it stayed running.

I plugged in the new scan tool, and got 3 codes out of the TCM.

P0725
P0826
P1701

Because I'd pulled the battery cables off at some point, I'm not sure if that P1701 TCM power supply code is real or not. I cleared those codes, and took it out for a test drive. It seems to operate normally, when I returned home it did have the P0725 code again, and it starts up no problem.

I've seen Vstar say that 0725 isn't "really" a transmission code, but also that having the 0725 without any engine codes is unusual. Do I need to take a few more trips to see if I can get an engine DTC? Was a fuel line frozen? Do I need gas line antifreeze? Crankshaft Position Sensor? Something else entirely?

Edit:I could hear the fuel pump operate normally for 1-2 seconds when the key was turned ON, and that this all occurred with approximately 1/2 a tank of fuel in the vehicle

[Greeno237]

Ok, no start again this morning. Now that I'm looking at CKP/CMP I found another post I'd missed when I was searching through the 1st gen threads. 2016-awd-rogue-struggles-to-start-somet ... 34929.html I didn't realize that the core components of the Rogue are largely unchanged across the generations until I started looking at the parts.

Long cranks on Nissan engines are usually from a dying crankshaft (CKP) or camshaft (CMP) sensor. On a QR there's no good way to diagnose which one unless the culprit flatlines and gives you a P0335 or P0340. It's very common for them to misbehave by causing mystery stalling and long cranks without throwing any codes.

Seems like I need to replace the Cam and/or Crank position sensors, based on the linked thread I'm going to start with the CMP.

Does anyone know who manufactures these sensors for Nissan? I don't think it's going to be worth my time messing around with Amazon garbage to save $50ish per sensor, I'm no fan of paying the dealership markup, but I also hate the thought of swapping parts and then being stuck with the diagnostic uncertainty of wondering if the new sensor is just DOA.

[VStar650CL]

Stick to a riceburner brand, NTK/NGK, Denso/Hanshin, Hitachi. Buy from a vendor who packs well like RockAuto and don't trust anything from the local parts store. The biggest cause of DOA Hall sensors is simply being dropped on a floor with inadequate packaging. Impact changes the magnetic properties of the sensor core.

[Greeno237]

Good to know, thanks! I went with Nissan parts this time because one of the dealers had the CMP sensor in stock, but I'll keep an eye out for those brands next time I'm shopping for electrical parts.

No luck with the new CMP sensor, so it looks like I've got to do the tougher one, and it's on the way.

Has the industry gotten that bad that anything from Napa/AutoValue/etc is just the same no name crap you see on Amazon? That's troubling.

[VStar650CL]

No, but there are very often teenage stockboys and newbie counter people who don't know better than to stick a dropped sensor back on the shelf. Personally, unless it's an emergency, I just don't like taking the chance.

[Greeno237]

Got it, thanks for the explanation.

I've replaced the CKP sensor, and NOW I have the P0335 code. Ironically, the Rogue starts up much more readily than it did before the swap, but it will only run for a few seconds before dying. Did I damage the connector in the process of removal/reinstallation?

[VStar650CL]

Those connectors don't usually have issues unless you somehow pushed a pin through. If there's damage there, it's more likely a damaged (squashed) pin on the sensor than the connector. However, since it starts and dies, I doubt that. Usually you get a long crank when a CKP is flatlined, not a start-and-stall. Is the sensor seated all the way? It's a crappy spot up there and easy to get crud under the flange without being aware of it. Even 0.005" of lift can cause those sensors to malfunction.

[Greeno237]

Yeah, it's very possible that some dirt got in between there while I was contorting my hand around the axle trying to get the sensor back into the hole. I believe I got the sensor properly seated based on the way the bolt tightened up when it bottomed out, and what I could see by poking a mirror up in there. But if dirt or crud is jammed in between the sensor flange and the engine, I wouldn't be able to detect that at this point. I guess it will have to come out again.

I think I'm going to get it towed over to the farm where I grew up, my Dad has offered the use of his heated shop, which sounds delightful after doing the first swap in an icy parking lot.

If we get the new sensor installed properly with the code gone and it still won't start, or starts and stalls, the next culprit would be fuel pump, right? Do you have any tips on diagnosing that or simply where to look next?

All I've really checked so far on the fuel side is that I can hear the pump engage when the key is turned ON, I can feel the hose under the hood pressure up, and there's power to the 15A fuse in the IPDM. I read in the FSM that I should be looking for battery voltage to pin 33 and 46 in the connectors (One of those will only have that voltage during the first 1s interval after turning the key on, but I don't remember offhand which pin that is). Regardless, I was unable to check those pins, the probes on my multimeter are too large to stick down the backside of the harness and make contact, so I'll need to get a small paperclip or some skinnier probes.

Thanks again for the help, the code coming up for the CKP had me worried I'd broken something and made this issue worse.

[VStar650CL]

That's assuming the P0335 goes away, yes. If it doesn't, there's still some issue with the new sensors. I should note that QR25 ECM's have an irritating habit of blaming the wrong culprit on P0335's an P0340's, so since we think the original CMP wasn't actually faulty, try reinstalling that before you blame the new CKP.

[bill875]

I had this same exact issue on my 2008 SL AWD on a very cold day last year at approximately 168,000 Miles. My Rogue would crank, but would not start. It tried to catch a few times, but I didn't want to burn anything out, so I gave up after trying twice that day. Fortunately, I have a backup vehicle I could drive and I waited for a warmer day to come to try to start the car. When that day came, I cranked it while keeping the gas pedal all the way down and finally, she got some fuel and and started running. The engine was a little rough at first, but once it smoothed out, I took it for a 10 minute drive, but back roads and for a few miles on the interstate, which is nearby and my Rogue has been fine since. I really have no idea why this happened, but I too was reading it could be the Cam/Crank Position sensors. I'm glad it wasn't either of those as I did not want to try to replace them.

My car has 178,000 Miles on it now and I changed the plugs with NGK back at around 125,000 Miles.

[VStar650CL]

I had this same exact issue on my 2008 SL AWD on a very cold day last year at approximately 168,000 Miles. My Rogue would crank, but would not start. It tried to catch a few times, but I didn't want to burn anything out, so I gave up after trying twice that day. Fortunately, I have a backup vehicle I could drive and I waited for a warmer day to come to try to start the car. When that day came, I cranked it while keeping the gas pedal all the way down and finally, she got some fuel and and started running. The engine was a little rough at first, but once it smoothed out, I took it for a 10 minute drive, but back roads and for a few miles on the interstate, which is nearby and my Rogue has been fine since. I really have no idea why this happened, but I too was reading it could be the Cam/Crank Position sensors. I'm glad it wasn't either of those as I did not want to try to replace them.

My car has 178,000 Miles on it now and I changed the plugs with NGK back at around 125,000 Miles.

When the restart is rough like that, it usually means the problem was flooding and not starvation. One thing which has been true of Nissans since prehistory is that they won't start with wet plugs. Worse, once they get wet they're very hard to clear out. Often they won't fire even on ether, and the only things that work are pulling the plugs and blowing out the cylinders or letting time dry them out.

[Greeno237]

Ok time for an update.
My dad replaced the fuel pump while I was working away from home, and that fixed the problem, for about 6 weeks. Then the Rogue refused to start again, so I replaced the fuel pump a 2nd time(very cheap pump ordered off Amazon). Today my gf reported that it took a few tries to get the Rogue started after work. She made it home, and when I tried starting it up after supper, it fired first try no problem. I shut it down and tried again, and it stuttered a bit after starting, but didn't stall, and seemed to idle normally once it smoothed out.

My first worry is that these "Amazon special" fuel pumps are just trash and I'm slow to learn the lesson. But is there anything else I should be looking into? I have not yet cleaned the MAF or TB, and I know both of those have been mentioned in other "crank no start" threads. Also, VStar's comment about rough starts often being flooding has me wondering about the air side of the equation here.

Should I just follow the diagnosis procedure starting on EC-850 and go from there? If it IS the fuel pump failing, is there a particular brand I should look to grab from RockAuto? For the AWD they have pumps from UltraPower, AutoBest, AutoTecnica, US Motorworks, Carter, and Hella. None of those brands stand out to me so I don't know if it's worth spending extra money on any one of them in particular.

[VStar650CL]

Even the China-cheapest fuel pumps don't fail like that one after another. I seriously doubt that's the problem. The MAF, on the other hand, is a good candidate, as is a dirty Throttle Body. The majority of Nissans have no MAP sensor for the ECM to cross-check the MAF, so when the MAF lies it can pretty much disable the vehicle. A sticky TB can cause the same sorts of issues, and because there's no cross-check, neither one will generally throw codes. Try cleaning both and doing an IAVL afterward. When I'm not sure if a MAF or TB is actually causing an issue, I do a before-and-after-IAVL test. Stream the MAF data at a convenient RPM above idle, do your cleanup and perform the IAVL, then stream again at the same RPM. If you see a large shift in the reading, you probably found your culprit. I've seen MAF's drift as much as 30% in old age, and a little dirt on top of that can easily become a no-start catastrophe.