200 whp ka (not dyno sheets...just ???)

[s10cky]

hey guys. im building a motor for my 92 coupe. im gonna go all motor. my plans were 11:1 compression/port n polished head/cams (cant remember who made them) full exuast with megan racing header/ of course tuning and a decent intake. my question is is 200whp attainable with this setup?

thanks.

[InsanityInc]

Yes.

Provided you can find cams that don't suck. If you can, tell me where.

[s10cky]

yea, i found a web site a couple of days ago...cant friggin remember. what cams suck?

[dickie]

where's ajax? he had a much more extensive build and consensus says he should be just shy of 200whp. still waiting on the dynos for proof so we can end the weekly "200whp n/a ka" threads.

[pregmantis]

check with jwt or rebello, they have some cams(major head and valvetrain work required) for the dohc and sohc that will push past 300hp. I wouldnt know what rwhp that would be though. oh, sorry thats thru carburetors. btw, with some good cams and some suitable induction I see no reason why you wont reach 200.

[InsanityInc]

yea, i found a web site a couple of days ago...cant friggin remember. what cams suck?

JWT's cams blow, and so do PDM's. They increase duration by about 6 degrees (and whp by ~5) , if that. Waste of 550 bucks really.

Apparently JWT has some race grind, but I've never seen it for sale anywhere.

[Nismo_Freak]

JWT's cams blow, and so do PDM's. They increase duration by about 6 degrees (and whp by ~5) , if that. Waste of 550 bucks really.

Apparently JWT has some race grind, but I've never seen it for sale anywhere.

Both JWT's and PDM's camshafts have over 270 degs. of advertised duration and Don's dyno comparison shows 11whp gain on a bolt-ons engine.

[Ajax]

where's ajax? he had a much more extensive build and consensus says he should be just shy of 200whp. still waiting on the dynos for proof so we can end the weekly "200whp n/a ka" threads.

Hey guys. Yeah, I've been out of time for the last few weeks- new show that just opened this weekend. We're still trying to work out some bugs- We've got some idling issues. We've almost got 1000 miles, but I don't know when I will have the time to get a dyno as I am booked with shows through April (which sucks, but then again, is a good thing).As soon as I get it dynoed I will start a new thread with the results.Thanks for the patience.

[InsanityInc]

Both JWT's and PDM's camshafts have over 270 degs. of advertised duration

Advertised duration increase means jack **** because nissan doesn't rate their cams in advertised duration. Using nissan's method to rate JWT and PDM cams shows that they're around 254 in "Nissan Degrees", meaning a very small increase.

Quote »and Don's dyno comparison shows 11whp gain on a bolt-ons engine.[/quote]Whose? Ka24development.com shows a ~5whp increase with JWT cams, and really no meaningful powerband shift. PDM's own site shows about a 5whp increase as well, once again with no meaningful shift.

Oh, and kindly go **** off and get back to the KA-T forums where you don't actually have to know anything about engines. Thanks.

[nismofly]

PDM's own site shows about a 5whp increase as well, once again with no meaningful shift.

w/o cams: http://www.pdm-racing.com/products/DOHC_stock.html

w/ cams: http://www.pdm-racing.com/prod....html

id love to hear how 163.1 - 152.0 = ~5 and not 11.1

if you really want you can order a custom colt cams grind

[InsanityInc]

I could have sworn it was less. Maybe I was thinking of some independent test of them.

Also, it almost looks like their cams graph is cams and tuning (due to the roughness of the stock graph).

[nismofly]

according to the site the other mods at the time of the dynos were intake, pully, header, and tuning

i personally have seen dyno graphs of ka's in the 180s, and of course the gt3 engines out of robello put down about 230 rwhp, but i havent seen a normal engine hit 200

[InsanityInc]

according to the site the other mods at the time of the dynos were intake, pully, header, and tuning

Did it have "tuning" before the cams though? I wouldn't put it past most companies to put it untuned on the dyno, put in the cams, dyno, tune and release the tuned+cams dyno. And of course "tuning" is pretty unspecific anyway.

I'm pretty sure I"m thinking of some independent test now, but here's the JWT cams one:

http://www.ka24development.com...T.jpg

heh, they actually added cams AND an ecu and gained 7whp. Had a header, exhaust and intake on the car before/after as well.

[nismofly]

they said it was running all 4 of those things for both tests, perhaps the ecu liked the regrind better or something

[InsanityInc]

Yeah, my main indication that it's probably a tuning difference(besides the other dyno I saw) is simply that the two powerbands really look pretty much the same.

[Nismo_Freak]

Advertised duration increase means jack **** because nissan doesn't rate their cams in advertised duration. Using nissan's method to rate JWT and PDM cams shows that they're around 254 in "Nissan Degrees", meaning a very small increase.

DOHC NISSAN SPECS:

STOCK 91 Cams - Intake - 207 degrees duration @.050”, .350 lift; Exhaust 215 duration @.050”, .367 lift.

C.702.S Stage II Cams - Intake 221 duration @.050” .379 lift; (272 advertised duration), .380 lift; Exhaust 231 duration @ .050" lift, (278 advertised duration), .390 lift.

I guess you missed this part?

BTW, Nissan's SR16VE N1 camshafts measure out to be 250 degs. @ 0.050" and they are marked as 288 degs. duration by Nissan with an aggressive lobe profile.

Whose? Ka24development.com shows a ~5whp increase with JWT cams, and really no meaningful powerband shift. PDM's own site shows about a 5whp increase as well, once again with no meaningful shift.

PDM showed an 11whp gain on their site as posted above.

I've seen people gain 6-7whp on a bolt-ons engine with stock CR with a milled head. It's possible that cam timing accounted for the error in some of the engines as cam timing changes when you mill the head to a certain degree.

[AZhitman]

I could have sworn it was less. Maybe I was thinking of some independent test of them.

Also, it almost looks like their cams graph is cams and tuning (due to the roughness of the stock graph).

Maybe you should have checked before you shot off your mouth.

I think you owe someone an apology.

Then, you can explain your stupid-a$$ comment to all the people in the KA-T forum here...

Words like "maybe", "I could have sworn" and "almost" are words used by people who don't have their ducks in a row.

Tell one of my moderators to "*** off" again and you're gonna find an IP ban in your inbox.

Back on topic.

[InsanityInc]

DOHC NISSAN SPECS:

STOCK 91 Cams - Intake - 207 degrees duration @.050”, .350 lift; Exhaust 215 duration @.050”, .367 lift.

C.702.S Stage II Cams - Intake 221 duration @.050” .379 lift; (272 advertised duration), .380 lift; Exhaust 231 duration @ .050" lift, (278 advertised duration), .390 lift.

I guess you missed this part?

Nope. I'd just say it's suspect information. With a 20 [email protected]" change to a camshaft, you should be seeing an absolutely MASSIVE change in the operating range of the engine, not 11whp tuned with other bolt ons that change the peak power by 300rpm or so.

As I said, independent measuring has put the JWT and PDM cams at scarcely larger than stock s13 cams.

Quote »I've seen people gain 6-7whp on a bolt-ons engine with stock CR with a milled head. It's possible that cam timing accounted for the error in some of the engines as cam timing changes when you mill the head to a certain degree.[/quote]On a modern, DOHC 2.4L, 6-7whp is an absolutely piss gain for cams, that's been my point all along. This isn't some archaic T-head engine or something.

[InsanityInc]

Tell one of my moderators to "*** off" again and you're gonna find an IP ban in your inbox.

Apparently you missed your mod's childish behavior in the KA-T forum. I was simply responding in kind. And no, I don't owe an apology to anyone, he's dead wrong.

[chmercer]

hes dead wrong for posting information off PDMs website?

man, JWT should give you a call and ask how to do their cam grinds. you could make 200 hp NA easy if only you had a custom cam grind, right insanity?

go back to superhonda.com or wherever you came from before you jumped the broken s13 bandwagon.

[Nismo_Freak]

Care to cite your sources on the cam measurements?

Massive change, possibly. It depends on limiting factors and how well the rest of the engine's components work with the cams.

I can put some 290 deg. Tomei N2 camshafts in my NX and it'd more than likely gain 3 whp if that.

[InsanityInc]

hes dead wrong for posting information off PDMs website?

Anything put up by somebody trying to sell something deserves some scrutiny. That's just common sense.

Quote »man, JWT should give you a call and ask how to do their cam grinds. you could make 200 hp NA easy if only you had a custom cam grind, right insanity?[/quote]Plenty of people have done it without a custom cam grind. Most of them are KA24Es though, and a lot of them aren't in 240s. Try going to some race tracks some time.

Quote »go back to superhonda.com or wherever you came from before you jumped the broken s13 bandwagon.[/quote]Jumped the bandwagon? Quite the opposite. I recently sold my car for far more than I bought it for by capitalizing on the bandwagon.

Quote »Massive change, possibly. It depends on limiting factors and how well the rest of the engine's components work with the cams.[/quote]I said massive change. Not necessarily a good one. If there was really a ~20 degree @.050" change in the cam, there should at least be some pretty substantial loss at the bottom end, even if the head isn't good enough to utilize the cam at the high end.

Quote »Care to cite your sources on the cam measurements?[/quote]Oh like I write down every site I've ever seen ever. Google it if you really care, but some common sense should be enough.

[AZhitman]

And no, I don't owe an apology to anyone, he's dead wrong.

I've seen nothing to support your contentions either.

The fact that you make broad, ignorant generalizations about the knowledge of a group of people who inhabit a subforum (i.e. KA-T) tells me you're talking out of your a$$.

Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one.

[ddgsxr504]

Well maybe my .02 will help a little. I know absolutely d!ck about cams and durations and the like but I bought JWT cams when they first came out. Yes yes I know big waste of $$ but when you are single military and get deployed like a bazillion times you tend to spend your money on **** that makes you happy. Anyway back on topic I took my car to JWT and left it there for like a week and a half. I also bought another used KADE head and had it port/polished and then dropped it off with the car at JWT. They installed the cams (sorry don't remember which ones but they were the mildish ones) re-tuned my ECU, cut my speed governor, raised the redline from 6500rpms to 7000rpms. With everything that is on my car (in sig) my car pulled 179.7 to the wheels (back when she had like 80,000 miles on the odo) on an average of 3 runs on a dyno. I had the car dynoed at Dynamic Autosport in Irvine Cali back in 2001. I cannot for the life of me remember where that dyno sheet is since I have to pack my $hit and move so much I seem to have misplaced it but I will keep looking for you guys. JWT cams are a little overpriced and could be better but I was told by JW himself that the cams should give me an extra 10-12hp. My S14 is more peppy and pulls pretty damn good from 4000rpms to redline for an N/A KA. Anyway I hope this helps a little.

Also lets try and get along, Everyone is going to have a different opinon/perception but we're family so relax guys.

[tonynalli]

isnt it funny when someone asks about na ka's all the other pages say to SEARCH..but this one was all about cams???and insanity calm your ****...were not having a pissing contest..because no matter what...AZ will win..

[Nismo_Freak]

Anything put up by somebody trying to sell something deserves some scrutiny. That's just common sense.

Within reason. Understand that when you begin to make solid technical claims against such a manufacturer you had better be able to back yourself up beyond speculation.

Plenty of people have done it without a custom cam grind. Most of them are KA24Es though, and a lot of them aren't in 240s. Try going to some race tracks some time.

I've been going to race tracks since I was 10, and I've been around the online 240 community for the better part of 5 and half years. To date, I have never seen someone start, build, and complete with proof a 200Whp N/A KA. Sure there have been a number of complete race NM GT3 KA24E's and other racing groups that can provide that proof, but nothing home built.

I said a massive change. Not necessarily a good one. If there was really a ~20 degree @.050" change in the cam, there should at least be some pretty substantial loss at the bottom end, even if the head isn't good enough to utilize the cam at the high end.

Honestly the bottom end feels softer than normal but a cam does not complete rid the KA of all power. As I've said before, all the components function in relation to each other. Putting cams in one engine might drop 5 lb. ft. at 2000 RPM, and it might drop 12 lb. ft. in another due to a variance in manifold design. It is even possible to gain midrange torque or even low end power depending on your manifold configuration with a longer duration cam profile. Not everything is black and white.

[InsanityInc]

I've been going to race tracks since I was 10, and I've been around the online 240 community for the better part of 5 and half years. To date, I have never seen someone start, build, and complete with proof a 200Whp N/A KA. Sure there have been a number of complete race NM GT3 KA24E's and other racing groups that can provide that proof, but nothing home built.

What cars are you looking at though? Usually at tracks I see more KA24s in 510s and other such old datsuns than I do in 240s, heh...

Quote »Honestly the bottom end feels softer than normal but a cam does not complete rid the KA of all power. As I've said before, all the components function in relation to each other. Putting cams in one engine might drop 5 lb. ft. at 2000 RPM, and it might drop 12 lb. ft. in another due to a variance in manifold design. It is even possible to gain midrange torque or even low end power depending on your manifold configuration with a longer duration cam profile. Not everything is black and white.[/quote]Yeah, nothing is black and white, but what I'm saying is that we should see a pretty significant change somewhere if it were a 20*@.050" change.

[Nismo_Freak]

What cars are you looking at though? Usually at tracks I see more KA24s in 510s and other such old datsuns than I do in 240s, heh...

Naturally I look at anything. I like all cars, domestic or import. Something cool like a five-dime or 210, etc. would most obviously catch my eye. I've seen DE's and E's in Datsuns, just nothing that would be near 200whp.

Yeah, nothing is black and white, but what I'm saying is that we should see a pretty significant change somewhere if it were a 20*@.050" change.

You'd think, but seriously even large changes can be masked pretty well by the engine. If you had a 454 and put a monstrous cam in it, odds are it would still make alot of low end power. Because thats just what everything else is made to do. The same goes for a VTEC Honda. The low lobe profile is optimized for low RPM duty but you just aren't going to get alot of low end torque out of a D16Z6 no matter how badass of a cam spec you have.

[pregmantis]

anyone know what kind of times 200whp will get you in the qtr mile? btw anyone ever check crower,web,isky,paeco,schneider? somebody has some custom grinds for the sohc and dohc, we just have to ask.

[InsanityInc]

Naturally I look at anything. I like all cars, domestic or import. Something cool like a five-dime or 210, etc. would most obviously catch my eye. I've seen DE's and E's in Datsuns, just nothing that would be near 200whp.

Hm. Well, I've seen a few here in California. I don't think I've ever seen a DE with 200whp that wasn't for a large race team, but I've seen a few E's from individuals with that much. Usually the cars look pretty beat, too. I've found that the worse a car looks, the more likely it is to be packing something under the hood... heh.

Quote »You'd think, but seriously even large changes can be masked pretty well by the engine. If you had a 454 and put a monstrous cam in it, odds are it would still make alot of low end power. Because thats just what everything else is made to do. The same goes for a VTEC Honda. The low lobe profile is optimized for low RPM duty but you just aren't going to get alot of low end torque out of a D16Z6 no matter how badass of a cam spec you have.[/quote]But I'm not talking about straight up numbers, I'm talking a relative change. Of course a 454 will always have a large torque number. But put in a circle track racing cam into a stock 454, and you're going to lose a lot of that torque. With something like a D16, if you put a low end cam in, you'll relatively gain a lot of low end. Relatively might be only 15ft/lbs though. You'll also tank the power of the engine, once again relatively.

Relative is what shows up on a dyno graph. If you put two on the same scale together, you should be able to see a fairly large shift. There's a little bit of drop in the low end with both JWT and PDM, and a little bit of gain on the high end, but barely any at all, and the peak horsepower and torque only changes by about 300rpm, if that. The graph undergoes very little shifting, which means the relative change is not large.

The small relative shift is why I'm so inclined to believe what I saw about the very small change in effective duration offered by PDM and JWT. It just adds up better than a 20*@.050" change.