1994 Q45, with 17" wheels & tire cupping

[Jeff Williams]

I have 163,000 miles on my front struts. I plan on replacing them, this year. The tires I have are 225/50/17 NITTO NT455 Extreme Performance directional tires. I like them, except for they are a little noisy.

I get the tires rotated every 5,000 miles, except for this last time, they have about 6,800 miles on them now. The tires have about 30,000 miles on them. The tread is still fine, and the wet traction is still great, but the noise and vibration is driving me crazy.

I had the front end aligned, when I put new tires on, and have had no problems with the way the car drives.

The front rotors are vibrating a bit, from warpage, and I will replace them, soon.

The front tires are cupping on the inside edge, only. There is a little vibration, so I know the tires are out of balance. I intend on having them rotated and balanced, tomorrow.

I put about 1000 miles on the car each week, and 99% is highway on cruise control(77 MPH).

Do you think the problem is the rotors, the struts, the alignment, the tires, or something else in the suspension, I need to have checked?

I plan on spending $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 on brakes, rotors, struts, tension rods, and tires, really soon. I ust wnated to know if there is something else I need to check.

Thanks in advance.

[Grant@tirerack]

Off hand, without seeing the wear pattern, I would look at struts and bushings as the probable cause. The load rating on the tire may be a factor as well. This car is a brute on tires even with the 'correct' allignment settings. If you can get into a little higher load rating in the same size, the better.

[PalmerWMD]

hey Grant:Think you can make it to our Kentucky meet this weekend?

Fred...

[Jeff Williams]

Grant, thanks for the info. I have heard the upper links tend to wear out on the Q. I will look into getting some from Joe, when I get the strut boots.

What tire do you recommend? I really like the 225/50/17. I have the ABridgestone RE92's on the little woman's I30t, but don't have that kinda cash, right now.

[AZhitman]

Jeff - Why not go 245/45/17? Some Conti's might not set you back too much, and keep in mind I REALLY love my Falkens (especially for the price).

Also, if you got 30K out of those, consider yourself VERY fortunate! If you can get a road force balancing done, you may find it is not your suspension bits at all.

Find a shop with a Hunter 9700 machine... Keep me posted!

[AZhitman]

p.s. you may not need to drop any coin on the strut dust boots - mine were still in perfect shape when i replaced my shocks... No need to spend if you don't have to.

[Grant@tirerack]

Fred,I'll be working Saturday and doubt I'll be able to make the 12 hour round trip and still function on Monday! :sleep Plus with a new baby I doubt I'd have a home to come back to if my wife has anything to say about it :pface . Take lots of pictures and post them for us tho!

Jeff,I would look at the 245/45-17 size as well. Much better tire selection in that size. The Sumitomo HTR+ would be the best bang for the buck in that size in an all season at $96.00 each. That would keep you in the 95W load rating as well.

[szh]

Jeff - Why not go 245/45/17? Some Conti's might not set you back too much, and keep in mind I REALLY love my Falkens (especially for the price).

The Falken Ziex 512 in 245/45-17 is also a 99 load index tire. This is better than the stock minimum of 95 that is required for a Q.

Z

[Jeff Williams]

Thanks, guys. The Sumitomo HTR+ do look good, on the site. If that special is going on for a while, I might ge those. I may try to nurse my tires, until January, if I can. The balance did a great deal.

[szh]

The Falken Ziex 512 in a 245/45-17 ZR (with load index of 99) size is available from Victoria Tire at $100 each. This size tire (in almost all brands) needs at least a 7.5" rim width though!

Check out http://www.victoriatire.com for more info on Victoria Tire.

Grant, push your management ... Tire Rack need to start selling Falken tires too!

Z

[Q45tech]

Don't assume that a 99 load index [from lesser brands] is the same a 95 load index from Michelin..............otherwise why do think the inexpensive Michelin Pilot H4 hold up so well.

From what I've seen over the years the Michelin feather at HALF the rate of all other tires. Due to their years of experience dealing with heavy cars [MB/BMW] with aggressive suspensions.

The load index is more of a time to failure at a load. What we see on a Q is rapid internal destruction SHORT of FAILURE caused by weak material strength...[low cost materials]....Very few H/V rated tires fail in the 20,000 mile period unless under inflated.

Why I recommend going higher in load rating hopefully you can gain some resistance to the load induced material failures.

If keeping tires quiet is your goal for 30,000 miles, there is only one company. If you can't afford them, buy ear plugs/turn the radio up.

[Jeff Williams]

Yes, it would be nice to have unlimited funds. I would be buying tires every 3 months, if I had to change every 20,000 miles. I may go with the Sumitomo's. I need to look at price, treadwear, and wet traction. I might go for a set of the BFG "Scortchers" in Red, just for the fun of it.

I checked my tires, in the daylight, and the front tires are feathered on the very inside edge, at about 30 degrees, for about the first 1", then seem to be nice and eaven the rest of the tire. This looks like the toe is out a bit, but the car is not darty, at all.

It could be the camber, but the last alignment I did, showed it right on. I haven't driven through any holes, or been rough with the car, so it should hold the settings.

Maybe the weak struts cause the car to "dip" a lot, and throws the camber off, some, causing the uneven wear.

I have a sneaky feeling it might be the FSTB I installed. Do you think the stiffness of the FSTB, causes flex elsewhere in the front end, causing the geomerty to be off enough, and wearing the tires? It could read in spec, with no one in the car, but when I sit my 250# in the driver seat, and get on the interstate, the fun begins?

[Exar-Kun]

DO NOT BUY SCORTCHERS! not if you value wet traction, anyway.

q45 is partially right, michelin makes bad-*** tires, but after my experience, I would never ever reccomend someone discard michelins if they can afford them....they're that good. But there are application specific tire I feel are better, pirelli makes very, nvery good high/max performance tires....

but they cost a pretty penny as well.-chet

[Q45tech]

The heel toe feathering is caused by tread block designs [in directional tires primarily] that are not strong enough in attachment to the underlying carcass. They squirm and undulate under load. Tires are not made to see the loads a perfect 4300 pound Q can extert on them and not show some adverse reaction.......even the $270 Michelin feather just much slower!

Take a Michelin and put it on oneside and your brand on the otherside [assuming alignment is spot on] drive for 3,000 miles and compare.

Ever wonder why police cars don't use directional tires since you would think they would want better wet stopping..........because directional tires are a marketing ploy..........that offers little improvement vs. the down sides..........especially on the rear of a RWD. They use special soft rubber [and 280 tread wear] to accomplish their goal safely. [they are also reinforced Gyear RSA with 98 load index and the CV weights more than the Q but the camber static and gain is nowhere near as agressive.

Tires that wear out in 15,000 miles will out stop tires that last 25,000 miles in wet directional or otherwise.

The other problem is tires are tested new yet rapidly change after the first 3,000 miles due to the heating which continues the vulcanization. So you can't trust the tire test unless you replace your tires often in the year!

Ever notice that manufacturers are now using bi or tri level compounds to appear that the tires are great in brand new testing suddenly when 2-3/32" worn they become beasts.

[Grant@tirerack]

The two main companies using multiple compounds are Bridgestone and Michelin. Bridgestone's method involves two layers of compound that, on the newer models (Unity AQII) gives you a slightly firmer compound on the edges of the tread blocks and a slightly softer compound in the center of the blocks. As the tire wears the entire tread block has the softer compound exposed to improve traction and resist the tendency of the compounds to harden as the tire is heated and cooled when driven over time. The second layer is all the way through the tread, not just the first 2/32. The earlier generation (Unity AQ) had the firmer compound covering the face of the tread blocks when the tire was new. As the tire wears, the softer compound is exposed about 1/4 of the way through the tread wear. We have found both versions to be very consistant as they wear and even at full tread depth better in wet traction than the Michelin tires (So3 Pole Position vs. Pilot Sport, Turanza LS-H vs. Energy MXV4 Plus, etc...) Our customer feedback supports this as well. The only Michelin tire using multiple compounds is the Pilot Sport AS which is not a layered tread. Michelin uses three different compounds across the face of the tread, not layered. Firmer compounds on the shoulders and two softer compounds on the inner tread. The softest in the center rib. We tested this tire against the top performers in that category and the wet and dry traction difference was minimal compaired to Dunlop Sport 5000 and even the Pirelli P7000 Super Sport. The Pilot Sport AS also had a very significant squirm while in transition as the center tread blocks gave out quickly in hard cornering. It was a very uneasy feeling until you felt the shoulder blocks catch:sad I have not seen a big enough improvement in handling or traction with these products to justify the cost difference. The combination of tread design and compound do both make a difference in wet traction and braking. We have seen many good performers that are non directional (the Sumitomo HTR+ for example). The main adavntage of a directional design is in standing water. We have done tests here with directional treads run backwards with minimal change in traction on wet track surfaces. The only significant change was in standing water of a 1/4" or more. By the way, the newer version of the BFG Scorchers didn't do too bad in our latest test. They weren't the best wet traction tire out there but they have improved quite a bit from the earlier versions. I was rather supprised when I drove them especally on the wet track.

[Q45tech]

Michelin has never been the best wet stopper [regardless of the allusion in their own rain tire ads]. Especially since many of their tires like MXV4 tie the outer blocks together to rigidize them [to reduce feathering] like the DB2 did to decrease wear noise.

Still you are testing brand new tires not 10,000 mile abused tires.Till Tire Rack does some extended life testing how can anyone correlate the results to be meaningful.........to anyone who doesn't change tires every 3 months.

Guess one could wrongly assume that the tire ranking stays the same at 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k but I doubt it........I surely wouldn't bet my life on it!

[Grant@tirerack]

Actually if you look at our customer surveys, they are based on long term use with the miles run on the tires listed for each model. These are not simply based on full tread depth tires and they from customers in the real world, not lab test results. With most of these tire surveys logging well over 700,000 miles on the tires from a wide variety of users, the results speak for themselves. While not scientific, they do offer some first hand input on the tires long term performance of different types of vehicles. That's why we list the MMY of the vehicle with each response. On the other hand, if they have less than 500,000 miles, the results are not as meaningfull (such as the Continental Extreme Contact for example). While not perfect, it's still the best resourse out there to see how the tires perform for real people in real world situations. I am not aware of any other resourse out there with that many miles logged in long term feedback. Those surveys combined with our in house testing program give customers a fair comparison of what to expect from a tire and often shows another side of the tire's potential or failings not seen in a manufactuers 'testing' or product information. If I had a dime for every tire the makers came to us with a new model that was supposed to be the next best thing since canned beer, I wouldn't need to work.:pface

[Q45tech]

Don't get me wrong. TireRack is doing a service to humanity and I'm cannot stress this enough.

Before TR everyone was relying on advertising and very unscientific word of mouth and bribed magazine articles. Someplaces your [2nd/3rd/4th place] ranking still is somewhat dependent on ad space purchases for the year. Ethics are weak even in newspapers as we have seen.

Very high level excecutive at a well known foreign manufacturer was complimenting them [TR] the other day about having all their CSR trying out on the track, even though the standing water is thin.Lots of praise, little nit faults.

[Q45tech]

My fault is with the consumer who doesn't understand tires and how to relate the fact that tires perform differently on different cars.......due to weight and suspension designs. The anecdotal evidence of tire owners is good but they still don't understand what they think they are saying........" I bought brand x to replace my worn out brand y, boy are the NEW ONES GREAT""My SUMMER tires didn't work in a foot of snow I'm mad"" Used brand X on my Pinto and they will be great for your Crown Vic."..............etc. ad nauseum.

Worse manufacturers change the tires after they are tested without telling anyone especially if they cheapen them up!

Physics is a terrible limit concerning the next best thing.

Next we'll be wanting you to test oem vs aftermarket pads on a G35c........notice they'll be 100,000 sold by Dec03. Can't understand why Nissan doesn't loan you 3 to get those low life beemer and lexun off the public's radar.

Plus my point of view is Heavy RWD Sedan vehicles which many don't drive.