110 octane without a tune, can it be done safely?

[reefscape15]

So the title asks the question....story is, I live very close to Watkins Glen International Raceway. Every year on their opening day they let people bring their cars and pay for a few laps. Yes, they are paced laps (at 55mph), but over the years my friends and I have gotten a pretty good crew to run as a group up there. We hang way back from the cars in front of us, and when it's time to get through the corners and onto the straights, well, it's go time! I hit 125+ last year, and scrubbed countless miles off my tires. Anyways, this year I have a brand new set of Bridgestone Potenza re760sports on there. Ordering Breakmotive front rotors....hopefully I can get springs done by then, but that's still a maybe.

To get to the point. I always run 93 in my car. Is it safe to fill with 110 and if so, will it cause any worry/damage? Engine has 156k on it now, shouldn't go up much by April as I have a winter car. 110 is available as pump gas at the station down the hill from the track. Would it make any difference? I mean, I know the smell would be awesome, but I'd hate to blast around and burn a hole through the top of a piston or something. Thoughts? Any input is greatly appreciated.

[Ilya]

Not sure about 110, but you will warp your rotors on Watkins. I have ran 5 Brakemotive kits in this car and my 07 M35x and have warped 4 or maybe all of them...while braking hard in traffic on the thruway (I'm in Albany). This kit is cheap, but it doesn't replace a real set of nice rotors and pads for true auto crossing or racing.

[reefscape15]

Last year my breaks did fade a lot after the first lap. I thought from what I read that Brakemotive was a good replacement. What otheotherness should I look into?

[Ilya]

It's a good replacement for a daily driven car that isn't on a track, for sure. I drive my car like it's on a track...lol. So I usually only get 20-25k out of my brakes. That's why I buy that kit...at $200, it's affordable to change every 20-25k. If It cost $400 and I only got that much from it, I wouldn't buy it.

You can look into Stoptech, etc...or look at the stuff our vendor TunerzStore.com has for sale.

[EdBwoy]

... I always run 93 in my car. Is it safe to fill with 110 and if so, will it cause any worry/damage? ...

I haven't done much in the way of fuel modification, but I remember asking my instructor a similar question a few yeas ago. He told me that if I could get kerosene then that would be perfect octane-wise but basically an unnecessary expense just like using 93 octane on a low compression engine that could make do with 87 octane.

And I know that our v8 engines are sort of high compression, but unless it can breathe better, I see the engine management retarding something at worst. On the positive side, you might get better gas mileage.
How about you wait till you're almost empty then buy a quarter tank of it and just drive around normally to see if you can perceive any differences?

[reefscape15]

It's a good replacement for a daily driven car that isn't on a track, for sure. I drive my car like it's on a track...lol. So I usually only get 20-25k out of my brakes. That's why I buy that kit...at $200, it's affordable to change every 20-25k. If It cost $400 and I only got that much from it, I wouldn't buy it.

You can look into Stoptech, etc...or look at the stuff our vendor TunerzStore.com has for sale.

Ok, that's good to know. This really will be the only time the car will be on the track. I do drive it hard sometimes and get on the brakes hard if I need to, but nothing more than just having fun and blasting around. Track day will probably be 9 laps this year. I guess if I destroy a cheaper set of rotors in that short of a time, I'll just buy another set. I have looked at stoptech big brake kit, but with the age and mileage of the car, I'd hate to dump that much into it just so I could have piece of mind on the handful of times it will ever be needed. Thanks for the reply!

[reefscape15]

... I always run 93 in my car. Is it safe to fill with 110 and if so, will it cause any worry/damage? ...

I haven't done much in the way of fuel modification, but I remember asking my instructor a similar question a few yeas ago. He told me that if I could get kerosene then that would be perfect octane-wise but basically an unnecessary expense just like using 93 octane on a low compression engine that could make do with 87 octane.

And I know that our v8 engines are sort of high compression, but unless it can breathe better, I see the engine management retarding something at worst. On the positive side, you might get better gas mileage.
How about you wait till you're almost empty then buy a quarter tank of it and just drive around normally to see if you can perceive any differences?

Good point....I guess without any mods or tune for that type of fuel, it wouldn't create any more power. Interesting thought to see if the mileage would be better, but I think last summer it was $8+/gal? At that price I'd rather not know and just pay $2.70 for premium

[reefscape15]

So after some quick searching, it looks like a front and rear set of Stoptech slotted rotors, pads front and rear, and braided stainless hoses front and rear can be had for around $650. This seems like what I'll spend some of my tax return on this year

[Divindra]

I recently upgraded my Brakemotive kit as well. I bought a set of R1 drilled and slotted rotors front and rear with hawk pads for around $450 but it was a Christmas sale and I also got the same setup for my SRT8 Jeep. As usual you get what you pay for. Just another option if youre still searching.

[ArmedAviator]

My Stoptech rotors and semi metallic performance pads are great. They rust like any other non-OEM rotors but it doesn't affect the performance.

Regarding 110 octane in a stock-tuned engine:

It is completely safe. It is also very dumb. Higher octane means less heptane. Heptane is what makes the gasoline very flammable, and provides most of the specific energy.

Less specific energy means you will get WORSE gas mileage than a gasoline with a lower octane rating and you will gain no added performance without a tune and higher compression pistons or FI.

Do not waste your money.

[Ilya]

My Stoptech rotors and semi metallic performance pads are great. They rust like any other non-OEM rotors but it doesn't affect the performance.

Regarding 110 octane in a stock-tuned engine:

It is completely safe. It is also very dumb. Higher octane means less heptane. Heptane is what makes the gasoline very flammable, and provides most of the specific energy.

Less specific energy means you will get WORSE gas mileage than a gasoline with a lower octane rating and you will gain no added performance without a tune and higher compression pistons or FI.

Do not waste your money.

So you're saying I'd get higher MPG and performance from 87 than 93? I thought it was the other way around...93 burns cleaner so to speak thus more power and a cleaner engine overall. Thus better MPG.

[Double E]

I race at WGI, VIR, CMP & Charlotte & build engines for endurance road course racing.
There will not be a significant difference in using 110 in that engine. If you were able to adjust timing, run a different spark plug, use different injectors and open more airflow just to realize the difference in octane, it would matter but something else will break soon due to the mileage and inherent design of the other components, hike the HG. If it makes you feel better, do it just to see. Just make sure it's still unleaded.
These engines are designed to run at 93-94 ...at best. Toss any higher at it and it the engine isn't going to suddenly wake up or give more HP. It is essentially blind to the benefit.

You'd be better off to just swap in new plugs, freshen up ground contacts, maybe change the ATF and get good tires & brakes. If it were mine, I'd just put on some switchable exhaust cutouts for a great sound on the straights. That 4.5 will sound awesome with a set of QTPs on it.

[ArmedAviator]

My Stoptech rotors and semi metallic performance pads are great. They rust like any other non-OEM rotors but it doesn't affect the performance.

Regarding 110 octane in a stock-tuned engine:

It is completely safe. It is also very dumb. Higher octane means less heptane. Heptane is what makes the gasoline very flammable, and provides most of the specific energy.

Less specific energy means you will get WORSE gas mileage than a gasoline with a lower octane rating and you will gain no added performance without a tune and higher compression pistons or FI.

Do not waste your money.

So you're saying I'd get higher MPG and performance from 87 than 93? I thought it was the other way around...93 burns cleaner so to speak thus more power and a cleaner engine overall. Thus better MPG.

Higher MPG? Possibly minutely. Performance? No, due to knock sensor/retarded timing to compensate for the lower octane.

Octane rating =/= "cleanliness"

Octane rating is a ratio/comparison of Octane to Heptane. Heptane is unstable whereas Octane is stable. Octane prevents pre-ignition and detonation (a.k.a. engine knock) whereas Heptane explodes more rapidly and more readily which is undesirable in piston engines that require specific combustion timings.

110 octane has LESS energy than 93 octane which has LESS energy in it than 87 octane. They all burn equally clean. Higher octane will burn more controlled/slowly/cooler. Using an octane rating HIGHER than your engine is tuned for will result in less energy extraction, reduced fuel economy, and can actually burn dirtier than running the correct octane.

tl;dr:

Use whatever your manual calls for UNLESS you have specific reason to use another octane rating (higher than stock compression, forced induction, advanced spark timing).

[Ilya]

So...the idea that higher octane = less carbon deposits is a myth? Everything you've posted is pretty much a 180 from anything I've ever read on this forum, other forum or automotive/enthusiast web site (to be fair, I have not read any scientific journal study on this matter lol).

[ArmedAviator]

So...the idea that higher octane = less carbon deposits is a myth?

That is correct. Basically, using an octane rating that is higher than your engine is designed and tuned for may result in carbon deposits due to cooler burning mixture. Running lower octane rating usually doesn't cause that issue as the greater temperatures and when experiencing engine knock, the carbon is burnt up and knocked out some.

It's best and most economical to just stick to the manufacturer's recommendation when it comes to octane.

FYI, do as I say and not as I do. I have put 87 octane in my M37x a few times as my mom gives me 5-10 gallons free if there are jugs full in the garage when I visit home (200 miles away). When I fill up on it, I try to keep RPM under 3,000 and mostly highway to avoid any engine knock even before the knock sensor has to kick in....I try. Just did it today, infact.

[EdBwoy]

Bow! Dropping knowledge on this thread, thanks for sharing guys.

For people that really don't like reading manuals, I'll always take one for the team, lol. It tells you what the minimum octane rating should be but not the maximum. Also, it says you can use 87 in an emergency. Just put a little and refill with the good stuff ASAP.

Btw, ArmedAviator curious minds would like to know why you guys have jugs full of gas lying around, lawn mowing business?

[ArmedAviator]

Btw, ArmedAviator curious minds would like to know why you guys have jugs full of gas lying around, lawn mowing business?

In Cleveland we have the Giant Eagle grocery store chain who also had their own gas station brand (Get Go). Every $50 spent on groceries you get $0.20 off of every gallon of gas up to 30 gallons. My mom does plenty of shopping and bits gift cards from there when doing projects (Home Depot, etc) which counts towards the $50. She regularly gets free gas and her car doesn't hold that much gas. The rest of those 30 gallons ends up in the 5-gallon containers. When I travel home (a 220 mile drive each way) she lets me fill up with whatever she has left.

[EdBwoy]

A free tank of 87 to burn on the way back home, in addition to seeing your folks sounds like a good deal all around.
Good stuff

[Amgberg]

So the title asks the question....story is, I live very close to Watkins Glen International Raceway. Every year on their opening day they let people bring their cars and pay for a few laps. Yes, they are paced laps (at 55mph), but over the years my friends and I have gotten a pretty good crew to run as a group up there. We hang way back from the cars in front of us, and when it's time to get through the corners and onto the straights, well, it's go time! I hit 125+ last year, and scrubbed countless miles off my tires. Anyways, this year I have a brand new set of Bridgestone Potenza re760sports on there. Ordering Breakmotive front rotors....hopefully I can get springs done by then, but that's still a maybe.

To get to the point. I always run 93 in my car. Is it safe to fill with 110 and if so, will it cause any worry/damage? Engine has 156k on it now, shouldn't go up much by April as I have a winter car. 110 is available as pump gas at the station down the hill from the track. Would it make any difference? I mean, I know the smell would be awesome, but I'd hate to blast around and burn a hole through the top of a piston or something. Thoughts? Any input is greatly appreciated.

Shouldn't be a problem if anything the car will run better lol. But can always run 93 and half 110