Q45 Cooling System Radiator R&R advice

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tangalora
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Before I forget, I'll type up and post the radiator removal process I followed so that others can tell me what I did wrong (and so others benefit).

For example, I couldn't get the two transmission heat exchanger 19 mm brass fittings off no matter how long I tried ... so I resorted to disconnecting those two lines under the engine near the power steering pump pulley. Now I wonder if I have to bleed or replace the ATF fluid when I put it all back together?

Also, I couldn't easily get the lower 2-inch hose off the radiator, so, I removed the three bolts holding the other end of that bottom hose to the thermostat cover on the engine. But the thermostat wouldn't come out. How do you get the thermostat to come out without damaging it or wedging it in farther?

Also, I didn't realize wire hose clamps were FOUR pieces (the wire, the bolt, the plate, and a small diameter thick washer). So the first one I removed I lost that small washer.

Also does any particular care have to be paid to the 22 mm thermoswitch (or can I just leave it dangling there out of water in the air).

Basically, my main concern was "Was it a wise idea to remove the hoses from the radiator not at the radiator, but at the farthest point from the radiator?


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tangalora
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================================================================================ Diary of a 1990 Q45 radiator removal & replacement procedure: - Photos of every step available (for clarity); - Please critique as warranted (so all benefit).================================================================================Prepare your work environment:- Wear full coveralls & safety glasses (to keep grease out if nothing else);- Shove a shop rag in your back pocket & a digital camera in your front pocket;- Sweep the floor of your work area clean (you *will* repeatedly drop stuff);- Place the Q45 transmission in PARK & chock the rear wheels;- Lift the Q45 at the front engine crossmember with a floor jack;- Place stands under the frame as far back as you dare;- Remove the floor jack & bounce-test the setup (better to fall now than later).Empty the radiator of coolant:- Loosen the radiator & coolant overflow covers to allow air in the system;- Place a suitable container below the radiator passenger side corner;- Loosen plastic drain c0ck at the bottom passenger side of the radiator;- Drain radiator fluid into the container (an oil-change pan works well).... Note: I removed the petcock completely to enable fluid to flow freely ...Remove the black plastic ornamental cover directly above the radiator:- Remove the steel quarter-inch screw just in front of the MAF (#2 phillips);- Note the steel washer and rubber O ring below that short steel screw;- Remove 7 two-piece nylon anchor fasteners (#2 phillips + needlenose pliars);- Note the female portion of the anchor bolt often comes out with the male;- Loosly insert all 9 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.... Note: Someone had previosly broken many fasteners ...Remove the ornamental cover directly over the hood hinge (fore of the radiator):- Remove 8 two-piece nylon anchor fasteners (#2 phillips + needlenose pliars);- Loosly insert all 8 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.... Note: Someone had previosly broken many fasteners.Remove the ornamental cover directly behind the driver-side headlamp:- Remove 4 two-piece nylon anchor fasteners (#2 phillips + needlenose pliars);- Loosly insert all 4 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.... Note: Someone had previosly broken some of the ornamental cover holes ...Remove the ornamental cover directly behind the passenger-side headlamp:- Remove 4 two-piece nylon anchor fasteners (#2 phillips + needlenose pliars);- Loosly insert all 4 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.Remove the two-piece fan shroud surrounding the engine fan:- Remove 2 steel screws on the top of the radiator shroud (#2 phillips);- Remove 2 steel screws on the bottom of the radiator shroud (#2 phillips);- Unclip the quarter-inch radiator overflow hose from 2 top driver-side clips;- Unclip the electrical wires from shroud by pulling 2 posts out (needlenose);- Note the fan shroud has a two-inch-wide removable collar around the fan;- Remove the bottom fan-shroud-collar clip (#2 flat screwdriver or pliars);- Remove the passenger-side fan-shroud-collar clip (sometimes difficult);- You may leave the driver-side fan-shroud-collar clip (if you can't get to it);- Pull the radiator shroud with attached collar upward out of the engine bay.- Loosly insert all 4 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.... Note: I was able to leave the fan-shroud-collar hanging by one clip ...Disconnect the upper two-inch rubber radiator hose assembly:- Loosen the hose clamp at the waterpump outlet on the engine (#2 flat);- Manually pull the two-inch hose off the waterpump outlet;- Hand tighten the hose clamp onto a section of the hose for safe keeping;Disconnect the radiator overflow hose under the radiator pressure cap;- Loosen the radiator-overflow-hose clamp at the top of the radiator (pliars);- Detach the quarter-inch radiator overflow hose from the top of the radiator;- Move the hose clamp onto a section of the overflow hose for safe keeping;Remove the engine ornamental cover (between the water pump outlet & the plenum):- Remove two 10 mm bolts on the top of the ornamental cover (1/4" socket set);- Remove the one 10 mm nut on the side section of the ornamental cover (socket);- Remove the engine ornamental cover from between the water pump & plenum;- Loosly insert all 3 fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.Disconnect the lower two-inch rubber radiator hose assembly:- Find two CAS wire-holder fasteners on the lower-hose metal section bracket;- Detach those two CAS wire-holder fasteners (bent needlenose pliars);- Find the one 10 mm bolt holding the lower-hose steel section & bracket;- Remove that 10 mm bolt from the engine (socket + 6 inch extension);- Remove the three 12 mm thermostat cover bolts (socket + 6 inch extension); - The lower two-inch radiator hose is now free from the engine;- Loosly insert the one bolt by hand in its original position for safekeeping.Disconnect the two wires attached to the radiator before removal:- Remove the 22 mm thermoswitch on the radiator driver side (open-end wrench);- Make sure you save the rubber 0-ring underneath this brass thermoswitch;- Disconnect a wiring connector on the driver side near the radiator;... Note: Could I instead disconnect the thermoswitch from the harness? ...Disconnect the OEM ATF transmission oil cooler inside the radiator:- On the driver side of the radiator, on the side facing the engine;- Locate where the rubber transmission tubing meets metal tubes;- This will be underneath the engine, close to the power steering pump;- This location makes disassembly easy as you can get a good grip here;- Label each hose & metal line pair so as not to confuse them upon reassembly;- Specifically, the lower rubber hose goes to the distal horizontal metal tube;- Correspondingly, the upper rubber hose goes to the medial metal tube;- Place a thick shop towel nearby as the transmission cooler will leak oil;- Remove the 10 mm bolt on each of these two hose clamps (box wrench);- Temporarily plug each transmission cooler rubber line with a pencil;- Otherwise you'll leak ATF oil all over the floor of your workspace;- Hand tighten the two hose clamps onto their respective hoses for safekeeping;... Note: I couldn't remove the two 19 mm ATF brass fittings or their hoses! ..Remove the two bolts attaching the radiator to the Q45 frame:- Make a note of the difference between the two brackets on the radiator top;- Remove the two 10 mm bolts at the top of the radiator (box wrench);- Lift up the two (different size) radiator brackets under those two bolts;- Loosly insert both fasteners by hand in original positions for safekeeping.Remove radiator:- Pull the radiator up out the top of the engine bay & inspect for damage;

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tangalora
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By the way, I noticed none of the referenced threads below mention filling a bypassed OEM transmission oil heat exchanger with a fluid before capping the two 19 mm brass fittings with those Home Depot plugs:http://www.ozop.net/trannyclr.htmhttp:/ ... d?id=31990

Does anyone fill the bypassed transmission heat exchanger with fluid before capping it off?

I may be wrong, but, it seems to me the advantages are two fold:1. Since fluid is (presumably) a better heat-transfer agent than trapped air, the radiator should (in my humble opinion) be more efficient with a fluid trapped in the capped bypassed OEM heat exchanger than air.

2. Since oxidation occurs with moist air and since anti-oxidants are added into ethylene glycol and ATF fluid ... I suspect future corrosion might be lower with one of those fluids trapped in the capped bypassed OEM heat exchanger.

If this is true, the question would become:Q: Which fluid would work best in the bypassed capped OEM heat exchanger for these two purposes?

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tangalora
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Also, given the A/C condensor has a tube running right across the middle, is there really space there for an additional foot-high aftermarket transmission heat exchanger?

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tangalora wrote:Also, given the A/C condensor has a tube running right across the middle, is there really space there for an additional foot-high aftermarket transmission heat exchanger?
Yes there is..... You might be able to get it on the top..

I feel the best location is either the top, passenger side corner or the drivers side, bottom corner... These are the 2 coolest places in the radaitaor, the former probably being more so. you can always slightly bend it to sort of wedge the cooler in there...... The cooler isnt thick (<1 in) so you wont be hurting anythign...

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tangalora
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elwesso wrote:These are the 2 coolest places in the radiator.
Thanks. It's helpful to know where exactly to place an external ATF cooler.

Seems to me, a fundamental advantage of doing it outselves is we may have the luxury of choosing various locations and then measuring actual results (assuming measurement tools are not too expensive and that the repeated R&R effort isn't too time consuming).

Do you think we can simply insert a "suitable" test gauge into the rubber hoses leading INTO the aftermarket transmission heat exchanger.

Given that DIY test assumption, does anyone have a recommended source or part number for a suitable ATF temperature gauge?

P.S. Others have tested ATF temperatures but don't provide gauge sources (e.g., http://www.fourwheeler.com/pro....html (http://www.fourwheeler.com/projectbuild ... erestingly, some vehicles seem to come with ATF temperature gauges, e.g., http://www.intellidog.com/dieselmann/b_smoke13.htm (www.intellidog.com/dieselmann/b_smoke13.htm).

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elwesso
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You could use an oil temperature gauge... They would be designed to handle more temps than the Q tranny would put out.....

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Alora - Fabulous work (as always)!

My trann cooler is in front of that hard line, I placed a rubber "bumper" above and below it (top and bottom of trans cooler) to "space" it away from the line.

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tangalora
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AZhitman wrote:AMy trann cooler is in front of that hard line.
Great! There's nothing like the experience of a successfully working installation to build confidence in the meek (me).
elwesso wrote:You could use an oil temperature gauge.

OK. Since I'm boning up on the transmission work for later, I have time to look up oil-temperature gauges. I've never seen one, mind you ... but I should be able to find them on the Internet (I didn't find ATF gauges but I hope to have better luck with oil temp gauges).

Also, it might be obvious to you (but not to me) how to drain the complete transmission fluid. Of course, if I drop the transmission pan, something like half will come out ... but what is the step to get the oil out of the bell housing and heat exchanger?

Is the transmission filter easy to change? I presume it's just under the transmission pan.

In addition - I see a few off-hand comments about an external transmission filter. Is that something people seem to add?

Thanks for any advice ... basically I won't start that job until the current two major (for me) repairs are complete ... yet it won't hurt to learn ahead of time for these couple of questions.

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tangalora wrote:Also, given the A/C condensor has a tube running right across the middle, is there really space there for an additional foot-high aftermarket transmission heat exchanger?
Look in the Member's Rides under my name.

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The cooler in Q1 is above the pipe - the one in Q2 is below... so they'll fit in either place. Check your thread for how I installed it in Q2.

I wouldn't try to remove anything from the radiator that's attached to it (e.g. brass fittings for cooler lines. Just remove the lines and unplug the sensors... Much safer than a potentially cracked or leaking radiator tank.

The t-stat is not attached in any way at this point (except for maybe corrosion). Just yank it with some large plyers or pry it out with a big screwdriver.

Heath

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Jesda
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Hope this helps:


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tangalora
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Pictures are great in that I don't have the innate experience you guys do so it helps me visualize the suggested tranny-cooloer installation location better.

In the photo below, I've drawn in where I think Jesda's aftermarket cooler is affixed to the radiator. I've also added two guesses as to where the bypassed OEM cooler might lie. If you know better, please correct me.

Open Issues:1. Do we attempt to place the aftermarket transmission heat exchanger directly behind the otherwise dead original OEM in-radiator cooler? That way, there's likely no (or much less) loss in radiator efficiency for engine coolant.

2. Why not fill the original bypassed OEM radiator with a fluid and then plug the two ends instead of leaving the dead OEM cooler open to the elements?

3. Wouldn't this provide better heat transfer for the radiator coolant than insulating air; and wouldn't chemicals in that fluid keep that heat exchanger metal from oxidizing due to inevitable contact with oxygen & water in the air?

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DAEDALUS
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The stock "cooler" isn't much more than a metal tube that goes from one fitting to the other. It isn't worth considering.

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Q451990
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The OEM "cooler" is in the tank - it doesn't send fluid through any of the fins in the radiator.

Heath

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tangalora
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Q451990 wrote:The OEM "cooler" is in the tank ... it doesn't send fluid through any of the fins in the radiator.
Just curious ... does the "pipe" go across the whole radiator & back?Or does it just loop quickly back as postulated in the photo below?
DAEDALUS wrote:The stock "cooler" isn't much more than a metal tube that goes from one fitting to the other.
I'm amazed. Now it makes MUCH more sense why people replace the stock OEM "transmission cooler pipe" with a real heat exchange unit (with fins!).

I guess if all it is is a tube, then filling it with a fluid wouldn't make much difference ... and neither would it be a concern if we blocked the same area with the aftermarket transmission heat exchanger ...

Some day, I'd like to see the Q45 radiator taken apart to see what that "transmission cooler pipe" really looks like.

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tangalora
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The OEM "cooler" is in the tank...
Oh dear. I've been struggling by what you meant by "tank". I was sure you were trying to tell me something ... but I just didn't know enough to understand the word "tank".

I think I now get it. Duuuuh. slaps forehead. The tank you refer to is that black area of the radiator to the left of all the fins.

That would mean the reason I couldn't remove the "transmission cooler pipe" is because it just loops STRAIGHT DOWN from the input to the output (as shown in the photo below).

That would also be the reason why you can't possibly block the same area with the aftermarket unit. And, it would be even more reason to not bother filling it with fluid to assist in coolant heat exchange as there isn't any (much) heat exchange going on anyway because it's in an area that doesn't even have fins. Sheesh. I can see now why all it does is heat the transmission fluid to the temperature of the coolant. Sorry for being so thick.

P.S. I'm starting to get bruises from slapping my forehead with realization ... thanks solely to you guys ... I never learned so much about my car as in this oil pan & chain guide job!

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Don't worry about it... you've got it right now.

Heath

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tangalora
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Q451990 wrote:you've got it right now.
Another task we've got right is shown by the annotations below on Jesda's photo.

The following are improvements over my ad hoc radiator removal process:a) The surrounding fan shroud was apparently left attached to the radiator -- (although I think the underside shroud collar was removed from its three clips)b) The sealed thermoswitch & gasket apparently remained on the radiator-- (I think all Jesda did was disconnect the two wires to that thermoswitch)c) The transmission heat exchanger was disconnected at the radiator itself-- (I couldn't get those quarter-inch hoses off the radiator without cutting)

By way of summary, I annotated Jesda's photo with the dozen removal steps:#1 Empty the radiator of coolant by opening the passenger-side drain c***;#2 Detach the quarter-inch radiator overflow hose from the top of the radiator;#3 Pull out two wire fasteners from the drivers-side of the fan shroud (pliars);#4 Unclip thermoswitch electrical wires (the thermoswitch may remain in place);#5 Detach two CAS-wire-holder fasteners (using bent needlenose pliars);#6 Remove one 10 mm bolt holding 2-inch pipe to engine (socket, 6 in extension);#7 Remove the lower two-inch radiator hose from the thermostat housing;#8 Disconnect the upper two-inch rubber radiator from the water pump outlet;#9 Disconnect the upper transmission heat exchanger inlet quarter-inch hose;#10 Disconnect the lower transmission heat exchanger outlet quarter-inch hose;#11 Remove the three 2-inch-wide lower shroud-collar clips (needle-nose pliars);#12 Remove the two 10 mm bolts at the top of the radiator (box wrench).

Then lift the radiator out of the car (I had to remove it upward as I was on stands).

I hope this summarized photo helps others do the job better than I did.

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[Thats my tranny cooler, but its Scott's arm. I'm way too brown for that to be me.]

Thanks for the diagram! Will be linking that at the site.

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tangalora
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I'm glad you like it. Annotating that photo (surprisingly) took more than an hour because I really tried to SIMPLIFY and ORGANIZE the steps so others benefit.

I was constantly re-syncronizing the yellow numbers with the numbered steps and trying to boil down both the steps and the numbers to only a dozen in the most logical proper sequence.

I tried to make your name on the arm look like a tattoo.


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redmanfx
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What about placing the cooler directly in front of the fan? Air is drawn to the fan so it would have to go through the cooler. I couldn't get Wes's cooler installed where his was, so we got a new one and put it where we thought it could get some good cool air. Damn it, I have to get some pics of all this so you know what the heck I'm talking about. I'm a master redhead not a master mechanic...

red

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tangalora wrote:I'm glad you like it. Annotating that photo (surprisingly) took more than an hour because I really tried to SIMPLIFY and ORGANIZE the steps so others benefit.
This is what makes a great post.

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tangalora
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As usual I'm taking your advice; I'll order an aftermarket transmission cooler (Joe doesn't sell them).

I already ordered Joe's Q45 transmission kit:--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - 31390-51X02 Transmission pan with drain plug- 31728-51X08 Transmission filter- C1397-51X90 Transmission paper gasket- 31526-41X07 Rubber O ring for the transmission filter--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- And Joe's Q45 radiator kit (see photo below):- 21501-60U10 Upper radiator hose - 21503-60U10 Lower radiator hose- 14055-60U70 Water pump hose- 21200-60U02 Thermostat--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

I'm still doing my homework.Given the oil pan & chain guide job in progress, would you please review these planned steps below?

I don't see how I can fill the transmission without there being an air void?I read in one of the posts that an air void will kill the "planetary" gear.

Here are my proposed steps (where are the failures in logic here)?- Complete the chain-guide job & reinstall all parts except the radiator- Rotate engine clockwise a few cycles with a 24" ratchet & 30 mm socket- Hopefully no sounds will be heard of valves tap dancing on pistons- Complete the oil pan job & replace all suspension components & belts- Put all parts back except the radiator which should be reverse-flushed- Attach the suggested aftermarket transmission cooler to the radiator- Re-install radiator and transmission cooler hoses - Hook up all hoses including new radiator hose kit with thermostat from Joe- Drop the transmission pan & replace the filter, rubber 0 ring, & paper gasket- Let ATF drain for as long as it can drain (can we get all 9 1/8 quarts out)?- Note the car is on stands so that may affect how much ATF can drain out- Bolt on the new transmission pan (the new one with a drain plug from Joe)- At this point, there might be plenty of "air spaces" in the transmission circuit- I remember seeing Dennis' warning about that- But what can I do to eliminate the risk of the planetary gear being starved?- Pour 9 1/8 quarts of Mobil 1 via a funnel into the transmission dipstick- Replace the oil filter & pour 6 3/8 quarts of SAE 10W40 API SH motor oil- Fill the cooling system with 5 1/2 quarts each of 50/50 Prestone II/H20 - Place the transmission in PARK(?) & run at 1500 RPM for exactly 2 MINUTES- Initial chain-guide tensioner air release sounds may be heard (ignore?)- Shut engine at the 2-minute mark & drain transmission fluid (save fluid)- Repeat 2-minute drain/fill until 14 quarts of ATF have been drained

I've never done this before; so I'm doing my homework:How do we prevent the transmission from being starved of ATF in this process?

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tangalora wrote:As usual I'm taking your advice; I'll order an aftermarket transmission cooler (Joe doesn't sell them).

I already ordered Joe's Q45 transmission kit:--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- - 31390-51X02 Transmission pan with drain plug- 31728-51X08 Transmission filter- C1397-51X90 Transmission paper gasket- 31526-41X07 Rubber O ring for the transmission filter--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- And Joe's Q45 radiator kit (see photo below):- 21501-60U10 Upper radiator hose - 21503-60U10 Lower radiator hose- 14055-60U70 Water pump hose- 21200-60U02 Thermostat--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

I'm still doing my homework.Given the oil pan & chain guide job in progress, would you please review these planned steps below?

I don't see how I can fill the transmission without there being an air void?I read in one of the posts that an air void will kill the "planetary" gear.

Here are my proposed steps (where are the failures in logic here)?- Complete the chain-guide job & reinstall all parts except the radiator- Rotate engine clockwise a few cycles with a 24" ratchet & 30 mm socket- Hopefully no sounds will be heard of valves tap dancing on pistons- Complete the oil pan job & replace all suspension components & belts- Put all parts back except the radiator which should be reverse-flushed- Attach the suggested aftermarket transmission cooler to the radiator- Re-install radiator and transmission cooler hoses - Hook up all hoses including new radiator hose kit with thermostat from Joe- Drop the transmission pan & replace the filter, rubber 0 ring, & paper gasket- Let ATF drain for as long as it can drain (can we get all 9 1/8 quarts out)?- Note the car is on stands so that may affect how much ATF can drain out- Bolt on the new transmission pan (the new one with a drain plug from Joe)- At this point, there might be plenty of "air spaces" in the transmission circuit- I remember seeing Dennis' warning about that- But what can I do to eliminate the risk of the planetary gear being starved?- Pour 9 1/8 quarts of Mobil 1 via a funnel into the transmission dipstick- Replace the oil filter & pour 6 3/8 quarts of SAE 10W40 API SH motor oil- Fill the cooling system with 5 1/2 quarts each of 50/50 Prestone II/H20 - Place the transmission in PARK(?) & run at 1500 RPM for exactly 2 MINUTES- Initial chain-guide tensioner air release sounds may be heard (ignore?)- Shut engine at the 2-minute mark & drain transmission fluid (save fluid)- Repeat 2-minute drain/fill until 14 quarts of ATF have been drained

I've never done this before; so I'm doing my homework:How do we prevent the transmission from being starved of ATF in this process?
Im not sure youll be able to get 9qts out.. I was only able to get out about 6 quarts.....

I thought it was run at idle...

Other than that, it looks great.....

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DAEDALUS
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Don't worry about air voids. The tranny won't be starved if the pick-up is submerged in fluid.

Wes, where did you get the 2-minute run time? I understand the goal, but it depends on several things, e.g. fluid volume in the pan, pump flow rate, mixing.

Try 6 quarts of oil to start. Let the dipstick tell you if you need to add more than that. Same for the tranny--use the dipstick to ensure the right amount of fluid is in the system. Don't forget tranny fluid is checked with the engine idling, unlike motor oil.

Unless you remove the block drain plugs, you'll not get all the coolant out. I.e., probably impossible to get 11 quarts in the engine.

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Should be easy to get at the block drain plugs, perfect time to free and remove them. Replacements are now cadmium plated for freerer removal later. Check the condition of the anode pipe and thermostat cover, I'll bet they're corroded and need replacement.

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all sounds good,run engine at idle in park for 120 seconds,then drain trans,repeat-allowing at least 30-45 minutes each time to get aprox 3 quarts out per drain.as far as oil goes SH grade oil is obsolete,you want at least SL or the new SM rated oil-does your year Q allow 10w-40 oil per owners manual? my 96 only allows 5w-30 or 10w-30 per owners and factory service manuals.

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DAEDALUS wrote:Don't worry about air voids. The tranny won't be starved if the pick-up is submerged in fluid.

Wes, where did you get the 2-minute run time? I understand the goal, but it depends on several things, e.g. fluid volume in the pan, pump flow rate, mixing.
I cant find the post... I know dennis said that, maybe Qship can help me find it..... I know he did this procedure because dennis recommended it.....

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One thing that I would try is removing the injector fuse and fuel pump fuse, and turning the engine over with the starter for several seconds before the 1st startup after the guide replacement. That should help get some oil up in the engine without the higher RPMs of the engine actually running. I think this might help prime things...

I always hated to hear even the very minor "tick tick tick" for the first few seconds after changing the oil - so I use this routine after an oil change, or anytime the car has been sitting for an extended period.

Heath


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