More Toyota problems, this time with the Corolla and steering

[audtatious]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/....html

"WASHINGTON -- Federal safety officials say they will look into complaints from Toyota Corolla drivers about difficulty with the steering on their vehicles.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received about 80 complaints from drivers of 2009 and 2010 Corollas. Many say their cars can wander when they drive on the highway, making it hard to stay in lanes. "

Man, they are getting slammed.

[Dittoz7]

Sister Has Yet Complain On 2007 Corolla S.

Are people just looking for any little thing now?

[car nut]

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has received about 80 complaints from drivers of 2009 and 2010 Corollas. Many say their cars can wander when they drive on the highway, making it hard to stay in lanes. "

Are they sure this problem isn't user related? There are literally millions of people who have the same problem.

And yeah, they really are getting it. I knew it wasn't good for them when they became the largest automaker. It's been mostly downhill from there.

[MinisterofDOOM]

I wonder if this is legit, or just a slew of people trying to profit off Toyota's suddenly questionable reputation.

[audtatious]

I have similar issues due to cupping of the front tires.

[Gold Digger]

Buy some stock now. In 10 years when Toyota is back on track (if even that long) it'll be worth a bit...well, maybe.

They are getting hammered over here with the brake issue on the Prius.

I know a dude who took his car in, got it serviced, then sold it and went and bought a Honda of some type.

[Loki]

The liberal media is just trying to make rival Toyota look bad so that the guv'ments assets in GM will be worth more by making everyone stay away from Toyota

[Koshin]

nom

[Jesda]

The liberal media is just trying to make rival Toyota look bad so that the guv'ments assets in GM will be worth more by making everyone stay away from Toyota

That deserves a flow chart!

[dusred]

Like I said before the government is just trying to demonize Toyota to make more people buy GM's. With this latest thing with the Corollas I'm not 95% convinced.

[Red coupe]

I wonder if this is legit, or just a slew of people trying to profit off Toyota's suddenly questionable reputation.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

People just seem to be searching for stuff to pin on toyota now. Still, can't say I am not amused to see them get a fat lip and a black eye.Guess that is what happens when you decide to compromise everything for sales volume.

Dus, really doubting this is some grand conspiracy by the government to boost domestic auto sales. Especially since this most of the plants being hit from this are from the US. Really just the government responding to the latest witch hunt.

[ADDirishboy]

People just seem to be searching for stuff to pin on toyota now. Still, can't say I am not amused to see them get a fat lip and a black eye.

^



While I dislike the fact that people are blaming Toyota for every little thing that goes wrong, even if it is down to user error, I can't help but be amused that they brought this all on themselves.

I mean, sure the steering issue with the Corolla is most likely bull crap. But they made an inferior product and are now taking the hit for everything bad that comes about.

Hopefully this will light a fire under their a** and they start making great cars again.

[Red coupe]

I mean, sure the steering issue with the Corolla is most likely bull crap. But they made an inferior product and are now taking the hit for everything bad that comes about.

While I don't know that it is necessarily a "fault" in the product, I can see where the wandering could be the cars fault.

If you have driven a modern Toyota, you'll notice its easy to forget the steering wheel is connected to anything at all. Unfortunately that seems to be by design, rather then a fault.

[AZhitman]

Dus, really doubting this is some grand conspiracy by the government to boost domestic auto sales.

Yep. But you gotta admit, it DID cross your mind for a split-second.

If you have driven a modern Toyota, you'll notice its easy to forget the steering wheel is connected to anything at all. Unfortunately that seems to be by design, rather then a fault.

Is the new Corolla steering electronic or does it have a direct linkage?

[ADDirishboy]

Only driven my buddies 08 Corolla S. I hate the damn thing more than anything I've ever driven. And yes, while the steering is loose and has TONS of play, I don't think the wandering is a Toyota issue.

I mean, it very well could be. But at this point in time, it just seems like everyone with a Toyota is jumping on the bandwagon and every blip they feel needs a recall.

[AZhitman]

And, on a side note, this is the PERFECT opportunity for Nissan do SOMETHING, ANYTHING, remarkable...

Sadly, there's nothing interesting slated for introduction any time in the next few months, and that's too bad.

[Red coupe]

Yep. But you gotta admit, it DID cross your mind for a split-second.

Nope. But I have never really been a "What the government is trying to do" kinda guy. My distrust of politics doesn't go much TOO much further then thinking pretty much all politicians are the same, telling what ever lies help them get into office.

Is the new Corolla steering electronic or does it have a direct linkage?

Dunno. Last I really did toyota stuff they weren't doing all the drive by wire and stuff.

But god I hope not. The worst it SHOULD get is electrically assisted, like power steering but not hydraulically driven... Getting rid of any physical link is really just too much.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Guess that is what happens when you decide to compromise everything for sales volume.

Amen! Let this serve as a warning to the other Japanese manufacturers: we want quality, NOT QUANTITY. The now-now-now income from selling lots of sub-par cars does NOT equal the long-term security of producing dependable cars. No matter how bad the economy is, cutting corners on quality should not be an option. Cut VOLUME if you have to, but never reduce quality to keep your product affordable. You'd think the Japanese would understand this better than most. I guess they've forgotten the 70s.

[nissangirl74]

If the president of Toyota doesn't throw himself off a bridge, it'll be a miracle...

450,000+ affected:http://www.thecarconnection.co...Blogs)

[AZhitman]

Meanwhile, the Koreans keep cranking out higher and higher quality cars that look good and cost less...

Is this where the tide changes? Goodbye, Toyota - Hello, Hyundai?

Maybe this is what it was like in the early 70's when Toyota and Honda and Datsun started showing up on US shores. Everyone thought their quality was crap, and yet the reality was that the domestics were doomed to decades of sub-par build quality.

[MinisterofDOOM]

That's pretty much exactly what I've been thinking for the last couple of years, Greg.

I'm fine with Hyundai supplanting Toyota. At least Hyundai makes a handful of fun or semi-fun cars. Toyota wouldn't know what to do with a fun car even if they could remember how to make one.

[AZhitman]

But god I hope not. The worst it SHOULD get is electrically assisted, like power steering but not hydraulically driven... Getting rid of any physical link is really just too much.

Further research reveals it's EPS - Electronically assisted. Not fully drive-by-wire, but damn close.

[Red coupe]

Further research reveals it's EPS - Electronically assisted. Not fully drive-by-wire, but damn close.

Meh, so was the MR2.

This is no big deal really, not really too much different then a hydraulic system, other then the engine doesn't have to turn a PS pump (well, the alternator would probably have to pump out more... which would possibly make up for that)

But otherwise I don't really care if hydraulics help me turn the wheel, or if a small motor does... In fact, a motor will probably keep up with rapid inputs like autocross or a twisty road better.

As long as there is that physical link there that directly transmits forces from the rack to the steering wheel I'm ok with it.

[AZhitman]

Actually, the electric servo removes a lot of the feedback that a hydraulic system provides... which has always been the main complaint about EPS.

I have it on the Cube, and despite the decent handling, it *feels* terrible - very disconnected. Reminds me of a Logitech PS2 game wheel.

I don't think the electric would keep up better - I think it'd lag more (just a guess, I'm no engineer).

Sensors have to "interpret" the torque applied to the steering shaft (from each end - road and wheel) and decide, based on a predetermined algorithm, how much additional torque to apply.

The non-compressibility of fluid is what provides the detailed feedback of a traditional hydraulic rack system.

Again, I'm no engineer - Just thinking out loud....

[MinisterofDOOM]

Yeah, electric PS tends to be numb because it's not as directly integrated. Where hydraulic assist basically just takes your inputs and amplifies them, electric assist has to actually produce its own inputs using a motor to match your inputs. Electric power steering is much more artificial.

You don't have to mess with PS fluid or pumps wearing out with EPS, though, which makes it beneficial for econo/commuter cars.

[nissangirl74]

Meanwhile, the Koreans keep cranking out higher and higher quality cars that look good and cost less...

Is this where the tide changes? Goodbye, Toyota - Hello, Hyundai?

Maybe this is what it was like in the early 70's when Toyota and Honda and Datsun started showing up on US shores. Everyone thought their quality was crap, and yet the reality was that the domestics were doomed to decades of sub-par build quality.

Don't forget the Germans....their goal is to be the number one automaker by 2018. http://www.motorauthority.com/...-2018

At this point, I say don't count anyone out. Who the hell would have thought that a Korean car company would be the main advertiser at the damn Super Bowl?

[Red coupe]

Yeah, electric PS tends to be numb because it's not as directly integrated. Where hydraulic assist basically just takes your inputs and amplifies them, electric assist has to actually produce its own inputs using a motor to match your inputs. Electric power steering is much more artificial.

You don't have to mess with PS fluid or pumps wearing out with EPS, though, which makes it beneficial for econo/commuter cars.

I'm still sticking with it depends on implementation. Toyota had mastered the art of disconnected steering well before they started up with the electronics.

DOOM... Not as much of a difference as you make it sound.This is the valving that typically determines where to give pressure in the hydraulic system. It has a channel for the left and right side pressure, in the valve body, and a spool valve that directs pressure coming in out an orifice.

The steering shaft and steering gear are connected by torsion bar, which is also connected to the valve body at one end and the valve at the other.This way when a load is applied, the bar twists and the valve moves inside the valve body directing pressure to one side of the other. This pressure then goes into the rack and pushes on one side or the other of a piston connected to the rack.So the twist of the torsion bar is directed to direct a force being applied to the rack, which feeds the force back to the steering linkage and to the wheel.

The main feedback you get is through the torsion bar, which serves as a direction connection between the steering wheel and the rack.

Pretty much the same effect can be had by using a potentiometer on this torsion rod instead of a spool valve, and applying the same torque the hydraulics would to the steering shaft.

In the end the electronics will be able to get just as good of a picture of the angle of twist in the torsion rod, and torque is torque... who cares if it comes from a force that is being transmitted through the rack to the steering gear, or to the shaft directly?

Its really the implantation of this system, the strength of the torsion shaft, and the suspension geometry that will determine the feedback passed to the driver. The electric system can also be lighter, easily tuned, avoids a lot of pulses that can occur in hydraulic systems.

[MinisterofDOOM]

Toyota had mastered the art of disconnected steering well before they started up with the electronics.

That's certainly true.

I am definitely curious to see if increased alternator load from EPS (especially during low-speed, steering-intensive parking maneuvers) is demonstrably lower than that of a hydraulic pump. I know a lot of econocars use EPS and claim fuel economy benefits...I wonder how accurate they are. I suspect there are benefits when cruising straight stretches of highway when the EPS motor is largely inactive.

[Red coupe]

That's certainly true.

I am definitely curious to see if increased alternator load from EPS (especially during low-speed, steering-intensive parking maneuvers) is demonstrably lower than that of a hydraulic pump. I know a lot of econocars use EPS and claim fuel economy benefits...I wonder how accurate they are. I suspect there are benefits when cruising straight stretches of highway when the EPS motor is largely inactive.

Hrm, its kinda all the same thing... where one is watts, the other is a force generated by pressure, generated by a pump spinning at a certain RPM with a certain torque giving you HP... In either case it would seem the two should be the same when putting the same torque on the steering shaft... The real result just being the difference in efficiencies between electrical and hydraulic systems.

I think GENERALLY hydraulics are less efficient then electronics. Not only do you have to physically move around the working fluid, but parts swell and expand under pressure so your putting energy into straining all the components that hold the high pressures of the lines. Seals leak and bleed pressure as well. So electronics should be able to get it done more efficiently.

Sensors have to "interpret" the torque applied to the steering shaft (from each end - road and wheel) and decide, based on a predetermined algorithm, how much additional torque to apply.

Do you know how fast a modern processor can perform this operation? Almost instantly. It can be done in an imperceptible amount of time. Look at any CNC machine... Sensors track the position the cutting tool, a computer reads this information and runs a motor to continue moving the tool until it is within fractions of even one thousandths of an inch, then stops it. They can't just shoot the tool off and calculate how far it will go into material with that kind of accuracy, this REQUIRES a computer to use multiple senors (up to 6) to track the location and be able to respond in the amount of time it would take the tool to move .0001 of an inch or less.

Hydraulics meanwhile need to accelerate a fluid, have the lines bulge up (even slightly), and THEN that force will be transmitted.

Its not uncommon for smaller & cheap cars to have power steering problems in auto crosses,where rapid steering inputs are normal. There is actually even a section on it in the text book I snagged that picture from like one page before it.
Modified by Red coupe at 2:29 AM 2/10/2010

[SHIFT_COUPE]

Geez, when it rains, it pours...