We have Medicaid and Medicare that we all pay into along with our own individual policies. If someone is "falling through the crack" then it should be looked into. The HC bill as put forth by Congress is simply NOT going to solve things, IMO, and will cause greater employment issues and financial issues to force people under a plan that will be less that what is available today. You seem to keep lumping us in the "we don't care at all" category and that's simply not the case. We don't see the current Administrations direction as being correct and we are going to be vocal about it.

I also do not believe the plan in Congress can work. I do believe a public option as outlined above (a non-profit managed by a for-profit company) can work. Leaving to the insurance, health management, manufacturers, for-profit hospital companies to take care of those in need is not an option any more. They've betrayd the public trust, just like those in the banking industry and those in elected public offices have betrayed the public trust.

AZ- you mentioned your mom and the bartering system with the doctor. Do you also recall that back then the local hospitals were almost exclusively non-profits? To make money the cities, counties, etc. sold them off to private sector companies, eliminating that "public option" competition to the privates. That is actually when the costs started spiralling upwards out of control. Somehow we need to put that competitive pressure to rein in prices so care is providable for all again.

Hell, this is just the first release of the bill and an updated one is being released Monday. Wonder how many more pages it will be? I bet 300+

And Matt you've been listening to Fox and Clear Channel too much

Quote, originally posted by audtatious »

This bill is a partisan Dem bill that has been put together behind closed doors and GOP comment or intervention has been denied or ignored to push agenda.

Not true! The GOP did take part but they are the party of no.

Quote, originally posted by audtatious »

Hell, this is just the first release of the bill and an updated one is being released Monday. Wonder how many more pages it will be? I bet 300+

Doesn't matter how many pages it takes to correct the abuses of the for profit insurance companies.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

I know where you're coming from; I also have watched and been involved in this debate for over 40 years. The conservatives do not believe that there is a problem and are only interested in blocking what is being proposed. Defense of capitalism is a good thing and necessary, but not when it is costing the lives of those who have worked in the private sector and have been betrayed by the greed in it. I also do not believe the plan in Congress can work. I do believe a public option as outlined above (a non-profit managed by a for-profit company) can work. Leaving to the insurance, health management, manufacturers, for-profit hospital companies to take care of those in need is not an option any more. They've betrayd the public trust, just like those in the banking industry and those in elected public offices have betrayed the public trust. AZ- you mentioned your mom and the bartering system with the doctor. Do you also recall that back then the local hospitals were almost exclusively non-profits? To make money the cities, counties, etc. sold them off to private sector companies, eliminating that "public option" competition to the privates. That is actually when the costs started spiralling upwards out of control. Somehow we need to put that competitive pressure to rein in prices so care is providable for all again.

So true.

Greg and Matt don't mention the hundreds of millions of dollars paid to CEO's of the major health care companies as they practice their death panels by denying care and payments to millions of subscribers, doctors and hospitals.

Medicare works, the military healthcare system works, the congressional healcare system works.
The only thing that seems to not work is the present for profit healthcare companies.

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider.

Telcoman

2006 G35 6 Speed Manual Premium Package A Factory Sirius Radio 101.570 miles, New brakes @ 85k miles, new 2nd replacement set Bridgestone Turanza tires @99930 miles, No mods required, I love her the way she came. Mod money goes to 401K. Regular 87 Octane, all the time.
Last fillup 11/16/09 23.53 MPG @ $2.37 gal with regular 87 octane.

telco- you are incorrect when you say the only thing that doesn't work is the for-profit system. It works well daily for millions more than are in the public systems you cite. What I am looking for is an additional system to cover the millions that are being betrayed by the private system. That still doesn't man it doesn't work for many others.

Somewhere in the middle between you two there are workable solutions to the current healthcare crisis. Try meeting there.

Does Medicare really work? Medicare needs a major overhaul starting with more people to oversee the requests and search for scams.

I don't know if you saw this or not, but on 60 minutes last week they interviewed a man who had stolen $20 MILLION from Medicare. He rented a low cost store front and pretended to be a medical supply company. Paid for patient numbers and sent requests to Medicare who blindly paid in full for things like wheelchairs and implants, for people who don't need them and most of the time don't even realize that this is happening to them.

If the gov't cant handle Medicare the way it is, I can't see them being able to handle any form of Universal Healthcare.

Just my 2 cents.

That's the most absurd logic ever.

Not everyone who does something for someone less-fortunate brags about it.

I don't need to "show off" what we're doing. In fact, if we did, the Lefties would come swooping in to "save" those we're helping... After all, they oppose most faith-based initiatives.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

I'm all for the private sector: I think a for-profit management company running a non-profit healthcare system for those in need is workable and sustainable. Someone like Kaiser Permanente, who's been really quiet and successful through all of this, would probably be willing to bid on it. They have the experience from medical manufacturing, doctors, hospitals, insurance and contracts in their repertoire right now. We could let them set up a free-standing system or integrate it into their current system as they saw fit.

Agreed. I worked for such a system for a few years. The only downside was difficulty attracting enough $$$ to attract the "best" doctors.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

Sorry for the emotional part of the above rant, but I'm truly sick and tired of the lack of empathy and sympathy from you guys regarding people who did bust their butts in the private sector, see themselves now getting screwed and are not getting the right to life they should be.

What if some of us are among that group?

You can't gauge people's responses to things like this on a judgemental scale... Kinda like observing grief - Different people cope differently.

And sympathy is worthless. Always. It accomplishes nothing.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

That includes those who are still working in the private sector and are getting cut off by the insurance bean counters from things like cancer care and can't get affordable coverage anywhere else. My feeling is, "Why CAN'T we do something for THOSE people?" That's the magnanimous American way and history of our country regarding others. Let's bring that aid home for Americans.

Just because I don't agree with you on HOW it should be done, doesn't mean I disagree that it SHOULD be done.

For clarification, I support that above statement 100%.

I think you'd find that the TRUE empathy lies NOT in fabricating YET ANOTHER government-run handout program, if you'll read carefully and see through the faux "concern" the current Administration is feigning.

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Anything "for profit" is inherently evil in your left eye, so don't expect a lot of people to share your viewpoint.

I hope your 401K administrator isn't getting paid millions. He doesn't deserve it. They should hire someone to work for $60K a year.

Dumb reasoning, right? Yep. So how is it any different from what you spout?

Quote, originally posted by telcoman »

Greg and Matt don't mention the hundreds of millions of dollars paid to CEO's of the major health care companies as they practice their death panels by denying care and payments to millions of subscribers, doctors and hospitals.

Break out the violins. There should have been a video of puppies being raped along with that post.

Emotional propaganda is irrelevant. Stick to the facts and statistics.

Quote, originally posted by telcoman »

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider.

Why not?

You're a one-man death panel.

You mean, rich jerk.

Under the Obamallama plan, you will still subsidize them. How can you think you won't?

NOW you're talking.

I deal with a lot of insurance fraud cases. A lot of times, my hands are tied and we can't prosecute. Why? It's government money (usually Federal pass-thru funding, doled out by the state).

Anyhow, I'm sure there are frauds in the private sector, but one man stealing $20 million is highly unlikely in the private sector. And the worst part is he said that over 50% of the "medical supply companies" listed in the phonebook were fraudulent.

I don't think the problem is the financial incentive. I think the problem lies in the fact that there is not nearly enough people to watch over everything and if they do catch someone it takes so long that the scammers are long gone, closed up shop and moved on. On 60 minutes there was only like 3 people in one county in Florida looking over things.

On top of that, the man they caught stealing the $20 million was only sentenced to 12 years in jail, that's it. 12 years for stealing $20 million in gov't money, somethings gotta change there as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LITTLE GIRL ON A PLANE
A Georgia Congressman was seated next to a little girl on the airplane
leaving from Atlanta when he turned to her and said, 'Let's talk. I've heard
that flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow
passenger.'
The little girl, who had just opened her book, closed it slowly and said to
the total stranger, 'What would you like to talk about?'
'Oh, I don't know,' said the southern congressman.' How about global warming
or universal health care', and he smiles smugly.
OK,she said. Those could be interesting topics. But let me ask you a
question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass.
Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, and a
horse produces clumps of dried grass. Why do you suppose that is?'
The southern legislator, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence,
thinks about it and says, 'Hmmm, I have no idea.'
To which the little girl replies, 'Do you really feel qualified to discuss
global warming or universal health care when you don't know s***?

I'm assuming the congressman was a republican?

I wish I had gotten some kids here dressed as Obama for Halloween. I'd see how they liked me taking all their candy, equally dividing it out amongst all the kids while taking a large cut for myself.....See how they like it

That would've been hilarious. And then, you'd have all the parents coming to your door upset, representing people against Obama and his policies. The kids would represent the blind-eye people going along with it. Great analogy, because adults know it's wrong to take candy from a kid.

That's probably the 2nd best reinterpretation of Halloween I've heard this year. The top one being an adult trick-or-treat where those little bottles of alcohol are passed out, and you have to slam them before leaving the porch and on to the next house.

http://www.breitbart.com/artic...cle=1

Sucks to be wrong all the time doesnt it? Learn to research your topic objectively please. (BTW, this was far from the first public announcement of the fact that the GOP was working on compromises and its own bill)

However, I did hear pelosi call the current bill and administration 'transparent' ... ya. If you have 12 years of a legal education under your belt, you MIGHT be able to get through the first chapter by the time the bill gets voted on. Transparent my arse.

And I will go ahead and say my previous posts in this thread were a bit harsh, but the hole sympathy can only go so far. It really, really, really bothers me when i see my tax dollars going to lazy people who want a free ride. Sure, some of the people legit deserve (upstanding, tax paying citizens) help in times of need, however, when you mix in a bottom feeding group into those tax payers to the magnitude of whats going on right now, it makes the rest of us upstanding tax paying citizens want to pull all of our money out of the system and scream 'OH HELL NO!'.

Reform is needed. No question.

The current bill is BAD.

If you are not defending the current bill before congress than i think we may have been misunderstanding eachother a bit. These things happen.

Quote, originally posted by Fred »

Gerry's knob is soooo smooth.

Quote, originally posted by 93coupe »

poop slinging ninja baby

The Daily Krunch 10-21-09

Marla: You shot yourself?
Jack: Yes, but it's ok. Marla look at me. I'm really ok. Trust me. Everything's gonna be fine.

Whoa, hold on. Who says it doesn't work? No one has said it doesn't work. No one.

Quote, originally posted by telcoman »

I have health insurance and I no longer want to subsidize those that don't have it and use hospitals as their primary healthcare provider. Telcoman

Everyone, this should be etched in stone for the ages.

One thing here Howie, is that the proposed healthcare plan, it subsidizes all that s*** to the "40 million" Americans who don't have it. So, if you don't want to subsidize people, how in the hell can you be for the healthcare plan? What you said there in that sentence is exactly against the healthcare proposals.

Quote, originally posted by telcoman »

Doesn't matter how many pages it takes to correct the abuses of the for profit insurance companies.

When I have shown, via the AMA reports, that Medicare turns down more claims than does any health insurance company.

Ignorance must be bliss. Maybe he should get his head out of Dailykos and the NYTimes.

So, Howie....What happened? Seems your beloved state has changed hands along with positions in Virginia and New York.....

WOOOHOOOO!!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_election_rdp

What happened was a lot of democrats just stayed home.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nyt...n/?hp

Upstate NY tossed out a conservative republican that had held that seat for 100 years.

The NJ governor Chrisite is going to end up a big disappointment & he'll be gone in four years. He will have little or no support in the democratically controlled legislature.

I put my 45 & 33 1/3 RPM happy dance records back on the shelf until next year.

Given the following report:

The president had personally campaigned for Deeds and Corzine, seeking to ensure that independents and base voters alike turned out even if he wasn't on the ballot — and voters still rejected them.

... that must mean that even Dems are not happy with the way things are going with the Obama Presidency.

Z

Excuses, excuses. The only reason NY-23 has a Dem was due to the Conservative only joining the race 3 weeks ago and the RINO Republican nominee being kicked to the curb last week. Even then, the unknown conservative was only 5 points back from the Dem which had received LOTS of Dem money and support from Obama and gang.

What happened to VA going Dem being a "realignment"? Seems it's hit a bump and the alignment is out again.

I see the GOP starting to realign with those who are disenfranchised with them due to their movement away from fiscal conservatism over the last "X" years. It's about damn time and will lead to more people voting for Republicans in future elections.

I don't agree.

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/...oll=1

What happened in NJ has less to do with President Obama and more to do with Corzines failure to deal with a huge debt mostly from past republican governors and high property taxes.

Truth is Treason in the Kingdom of Lies - Ron Paul

Quote, originally posted by WDRacing »

Mentioning more taxes...then blaming the Republicans. Just wow

Yup! Truly amazing ... ! Once you want to fool yourself, I guess it is an easy step to twist facts around to suit the belief.

Z

Denials in that of themselves are not a reliable metric for such an analysis. A simple thought into this is that any services determined to be fraudulent or not covered are denied. Perhaps even incorrect documentation can cause a denial. Hard to say without knowing what the data behind it actually is. But another major factor is that healthcare companies can essentially pick and choose who they insure. And by charging more for someone with poor medical history, they do exactly that. This would skew the number of denials they would need to issue as less of their insureds will need to submit claims for procedures. Not to mention most network doctors are set up to be able to see what benefits are available for each patient so many claims aren't even submitted as they already know. Case in point, my GF was seeing a chiropractor for a while. She had a certain number of chiro visits available to her. The chiro knew exactly how much based on access to her claim history. So there is no need to present a claim that they knew would not be covered.

Lastly, I'm not sure how Medicare supplemental claims works, but if its like secondary medical insurance for auto claims (in CA), the claim still has to be submitted to the primary health carrier. The supplemental picks up the covered portion of any services not paid by the primary. But for them to make that determination, they need the explanation of benefits which is only created after a claim is reported to the primary. Few people carry supplemental insurance for private healthcare. My understanding is many do buy supplemental coverage for medicare. I can't see using denials as a basis for a comparison between private and public insurance unless you understand and make adjustments for factors that would naturally skew the results.

Quote, originally posted by AZhitman »

How about talking about the other side (the OTHER 99% of people)? The ones who work hard, retire, and live happily ever after? We don't write legislation for the 1% or for the 'theoreticals'. Sorry Steve.

Somehow the only people who seem to be uninsured are lazy SOB's? What about the many many small business owners who can't afford to pay for their insurance. You know, the people who get no vacations, for whom there are no sick days, disability (unless shutting down their business is a viable option) or worker's comp. Those who have worked hard but can't afford health coverage because of "previous conditions" or poor history? My parents fit this description...

While I won't say that universal healthcare is a perfect soution or the one we should go with, consider that insurance has been private for sometime. And its left a lot of people out in the cold. And its only gotten worse. From my observations its gotten more expensive and provides less coverage. Something is clearly broken. Yes, even Medicare. But rather than seek out solutions, the issue has always been polarized. It seems moreso now than ever before. Where was the right when powers in office were more balanced and we could take a more critical look at a solution? Oh that's right. "There wasn't a problem."

And 1%? Conservatively, I calculate its more like 13% of people who are uninsured. 15% is probably closer to reality.

So do I... (with the exception of the fact that I still have my 9-to-5, pretty much just for the health insurance).

We need to be able to negotiate for pooled rates (Association Health Plans).

We DON'T NEED a goddamn government program. We NEED the limp-wristed Democrats to QUIT trying to MANAGE everything and let the market WORK.

We ALSO need this "entitlement" nonsense to go away, along with unions and other useless crap. People CAN and SHOULD pay a portion of their premiums. PERIOD. And it should be a substantial enough portion that allows the system to remain viable.

People think their healthcare should be free, just because they have a job? Morons.

I've been following this issue for years, as a SEMA member of the Small Business Coalition For Affordable Healthcare.

What you are saying about fraudulent claims and such can also be said of Medicare as well. Looking in from the top, Medicare has more claim denials and that's a statistic that can't be denied. Medicare is going bankrupt which can't be denied either. The Gov has shown they are unable to manage these initiatives from a financial perspective so the numbers they are throwing out are laughable. 1.2 trillion in cost over 10 years.....which is only 6-7 years of real coverage with 10 years of taxation. In the financial world this would be a ponzi scheme. What is the true 10 year cost if the Gov has positioned itself to take over the whole enchilada? Hell, do you really thing the Gov will take 3-4 years of taxes and set them aside for this program? They don't do it for Medicare tax money today, it's used for the general fund.

Quote, originally posted by AZhitman »

We need to be able to negotiate for pooled rates (Association Health Plans)

Associated/National health plans are going to be a problem because individual states have different regulations. Possible? Yes. But it's not as easy as it seems.

I wish it was the party of No. I'd vote for a party of No. That's exactly what we need right now.

And you're out of your mind if you think Tricare works. When an Airman making $16,000 a year says "f*** it, I'll go to the emergency room and pay for it myself," you know the system is broken. I like Tricare because I don't use it and I don't have to pay for it (directly).

Hell of a lot easier than this nonsense they've forced us into.

I'm sure the states can work it out - intergovernmental agreements between states are not hard to implement, and often come about with a LOT less bureaucratic horsecrap than we're gonna see from this SCAM foisted on us by Pelosi and her thugs.