Suffice it to say, she makes me sick. Not because she's passionate about her views, but because she speaks in broad, uninformed generalizations and regurgitates whatever drivel she reads in the libby ragsheet that's in the FREE newsstand down on the first floor.

Anyhow, today, the topic was healthcare, and she was whining and bleating about the mean people at these town hall meetings, the "Republican filibuster" that just wants to sit on its hands, and how if we'll all just go along with BO's "vision", he will lead us into Nirvana.

I snapped.

The conversation went something like this... After pointing out that's she's well-past retirement age, and about to start needing some Medicare...

I pointed out to her, the cuts in Medicare spending over the next 10 years. I pointed out that she'll likely lose her private physician, and probably be assigned to a team of doctors, a conglomerate, that will manage her care... And right about the time her old a$$ is falling apart, they'll be looking for ways to spend less and less keeping her sorry a$$ alive. Oh, and I reminded her that her Medicare contributions WILL go up.

So far, all facts. Irrefutable, and in black and white.

Now, all that savings has to do two things: It has to cover an estimated $20 TRILLION in shortfall, AAAAAND it has to provide health care coverage to a bunch of people (roughly 40 million) that she mistakenly thinks she's quite fond of.

Yep. I reminded her that while she was across the street marching in support of immigration reform, getting all huffy at law enforcement for actually ENFORCING OUR LAWS, the unchecked immigration into the US placed us in a real jam.

See, about 10 million of the 40 million uninsured are foreign born, and an estimated 60% of those entered the country illegally. So, in effect, I reminded her, the effects of the last few decades of loosey-goosey immigration enforcement has now come home to roost.

Yes, dummy. You brought this on yourself. You opposed our immigration controls. You opposed arrests and deportations. And now you THINK you support a public-option healthcare plan that JUST MIGHT come back and bite you in your wrinkled lefty butt.

Your coverage will cost more, cover less, and you'll STILL be angry at the wrong people.

I left her a bit stumped, and reminded her that if she cared to do some fact-checking, she'd see that I'm right... I also asked her to please refrain from spewing any further political nonsense in my presence unless she's done her homework... We'll see how long THAT lasts.

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Very interesting AP article came out concerning some of the fallacies being spewed in support of a Gov-option...

"THE CLAIMS

-"I'm very pleased that (Democratic leaders) will be talking, too, about the immoral profits being made by the insurance industry and how those profits have increased in the Bush years." House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., who also welcomed the attention being drawn to insurers' "obscene profits."

-"Keeping the status quo may be what the insurance industry wants. Their premiums have more than doubled in the last decade and their profits have skyrocketed." Maryland Rep. Chris Van Hollen, member of the Democratic leadership.

-"Health insurance companies are willing to let the bodies pile up as long as their profits are safe." A MoveOn.org ad.

THE NUMBERS:

Health insurers posted a 2.2 percent profit margin last year, placing them 35th of 53 industries on the Fortune 500 list. As is typical, other health sectors did much better - drugs and medical products and services were both in the top 10.

The railroads brought in a 12.6 percent profit margin. Leading the list: network and other communications equipment, at 20.4 percent.

HealthSpring, the best performer in the health insurance industry, posted 5.4 percent. That's a less profitable margin than was achieved by the makers of Tupperware, Clorox bleach and Molson and Coors beers.

The star among the health insurance companies did, however, nose out Jack in the Box restaurants, which only achieved a 4 percent margin."

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/s...=HOME

Isn't that special?

America needs to first have the debate as to what kind of country this has evolved into and where it will go from here. Namely, will we allow a not-for-profit sector to provide for those who truly need it or are we going to simply ignore them in favor of the almighty dollar?

Once the social part of the debate is resolved we need to focus on how to provide the care to those people if that is in fact what we are going to do.

My personal feeling is that power and money has corrupted both sides and we are no longer the common-sense, pragmatic and compassionate society we once were.

I guess I'm just one of those callous haters that want everyone dead because I don't support free health care for the whole world. Why don't you Democrats put together a voluntary fund to give those without insurance the coverage you wish them to have? That way, you can reach into your own pockets instead of others.

As am I, appparently.

It's amazing... Despite legions of self-sufficient, capable Americans, day in and day out, pulling themselves up by the bootstraps, we STILL have to listen to the bleating of the Left... A Left that wants public policy dictated to 100% of the population against the wishes of 80% of the population and only benefitting 10% of the population, of whom half are not eligible in the first place.

Meanwhile, welfare fraud runs rampant. Foodstamp and Section 8 fraud is widely regarded as "unstoppable". Medicare fraud is so unchecked, it's laughable.

But no... Healthcare reform is an "emergency".

My mother didn't have health insurance growing up. She was one of 4 kids, raised by a young widow, herself disabled, who relied on the goodness of the community. The doctor at her church dropped by when one of the kids needed something... He probably got a pot of soup or a new knitted shawl for his troubles. The government played no part in the equation, and that's probably why they all survived and thrived, despite the worst of circumstances.

I've said it here before: Healthcare (like a college education, home ownership, and driving a car) is not one of your "unalienable rights".

From your description she sounds like she knows what she is talking about

Telcoman

2006 G35 6 Speed Manual Premium Package A Factory Sirius Radio 101.570 miles, New brakes @ 85k miles, new 2nd replacement set Bridgestone Turanza tires @99930 miles, No mods required, I love her the way she came. Mod money goes to 401K. Regular 87 Octane, all the time.
Last fillup 11/16/09 23.53 MPG @ $2.37 gal with regular 87 octane.

Quote, originally posted by telcoman »

I'd like to meet her From your description she sounds like she knows what she is talking about Telcoman

Yep - She's right up your alley.

You could compare bowel problems while feeling bewildered at how you could have been so easily fooled.

Great post man...very well said.

Truth is Treason in the Kingdom of Lies - Ron Paul

There's a simple solution: Live within your means, self-insure yourself, and get "off the grid". Easier said than done, but looking more and more attractive by the day.

The reality is, the greatest risk fields SHOULD reward participants with the greatest profits.

Unfortunately, that has gotten skewed.

Next time someone starts blathering about healthcare reform, ask them how they feel about immigration reform. Ask them how they feel about malpractice limitations. Ask them how much of their healthcare they actually PAY for.

See, the people b****ing, don't pay a lot.

Make a doctor visit cost $100, a trip to the E.R. $500 (waive half of it if you're admitted) and a Rx cost $50 and see the WHOLE situation turn around overnight.

I got this thing figured out.

The truth is that there will always be those who are like a stray cat. Feed it once and it will come back wanting more food. Keep feeding it and it starts to look for housing on your property. Allow it to stay and next it tries to move into the house. The cat has it made while the only thing you have to show for it is "feeling good" for helping it. Eventually it comes down to having to provide it for life with litter, cleaning, vet bills, better vacuum cleaners, new carpeting when they are pissin all over the place, having kittens, etc.

While I believe we need to address the problems of the "stray cats" you describe, that doesn't address the problems of the people I see every day. People who got laid off from jobs after 20+ years and can't find another because companies aren't hiring. People whose COBRA insurance premiums are higher than their unemployment so they have no choice but to go without health insurance for themselves and their kids so they can put food on the table. People who are getting cut off by their insurance companies because they've reached financial limits on insurance and the insurance company they must use through their employer simply cut them off. And they can't go elsewhere because they have a "pre-existing condition" and can't afford the premiums they must pay to get around it.

By the way, AZ, what was the life expectancy back when your mom was dealing with that bartering doctor? How much more sophisticated is the medical industry these days? How many malpractice suits and how much more is licensing, insurance, continuing education, etc., etc., etc., today than it was then? Sorry, but in today's world none of those commodities can be paid for with a sweater one of your patients knitted for you.

You are approaching the situation from the viewpoint that all of these people are evil or lazy. I'm much more optimistic about my fellow human beings than that.

Let's provide for those who truly need it in today's real-world situation instead of abandoning all of them.

The only reason that the "majority" have a differing opinion is because stupid people are an "epidemic". "...only stupid people are breeding..." Harvey Danger.

I have PERSONALLY witnessed too many damned loosers feeding off of social services to EVER want to help any of them. I know of two "friends of the family" who's adult children have in excess of 7 kids, no job, no education, and a drug problem.

On the other hand, a former employee of mine had a pretty bad tangle with the law when he was a teen and was just barely getting his life together (just turned 30). I made whatever preperations were reasonable to help him get on his feet. Wrote him a reference letter. Let him borrow my car. Got him some food when he could barely make his rent.

His family were a bunch of sick loosers who mooched off of social security, welfare, and whatever free medical care they could get. They sickened me. Especially the 16 y/o who just had a baby and doesn't want anything to do with it.

Information is extremely accessible these days. Internet, library, free clinic walls...etc.

Stop eating artificial sweeteners, flavors, and colors.
Stop smoking.
Drink in moderation or not at all.
Medication should be used sparingly unless it's been around for 100 years and has been proven safe.
Carcinogens (sp) are all around you, go do some research to find out what need to be removed from your life.
Wash your hands and sanitize your world more often.
Drink more water.
Consume less sugar, fat, cholesterol, salt, nitrites...etc.
Eat more locally grown, organic, fruits and vegetables.
Get some physical activity into your day.
Be proud and get a job. You'll feel better about yourself.

If all Americans could adhere to the list I have above, I'd guesstimate that 80% of health problems would be GONE.

F/S:G35/350Z/FX35/Altima Grounding Kits

Quote, originally posted by Mr1der »

go see her, have the most brutal sex ever, then drink most of her milk from the carton and leave.

Where are the millions of jobs promised by the Administration? Why is tort reform such a bad word? Why must we continue giving hand outs instead of hand-ups? Why should we keep punishing big business in the US when it is simply driving jobs and industry overseas?

You seem to have swallowed the line that everyone who is for healthcare reform is for a public option. Guess what? That's a load of crap. We are ALL for reform, just not the socialized approach put forth by Pelosi/Reid/Obama.

If the Administration can immediately cut 500 billion worth of waste from Social Security, why don't they do it? Because, it's all smoke and mirrors. Just like the proposed 10-year cost of their UH plan in which there is only 6-7 years of coverage based upon 10 years of tax receipts. What does the next 10 years look like? You got it, major deficit spending.

They need to do things the right way or GTFO. That goes for Dems and Reps alike.

What is "the right way"? Your way or no way?

That's what this entire debate is about. Attempting to compromise to something that will work (imperfectly, but workable) to take care of those who TRULY need the coverage.

There is no one-size-fits-all "right way". Your "right way" differs from other's "right way".

Sentient- no one here disputes that there are moochers and that you unfortunately are related to some of them. That doesn't, however, mean that 100% of the people are moochers. We need to come to a medium that helps those who need it while cracking down on the moochers.

Really?

Latest polls show a 50/50 split... Don't forget, Americans didn't vote FOR Obama's policies, they voted AGAINST Bush's.

We're still a conservative nation. The left just is a lot noisier.

You were already shot down with the polls you tried to use to support this argument in this other thread.

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zer...age=1

I'd hardly call that "shot down". More like "circumvented".

Bottom line:

The MAJORITY believe in smaller government. FACT.
The MAJORITY believe private industry can do everything better than government. FACT.
The MAJORITY believe in a Higher Power. FACT.
The MAJORITY believe in a "universal right and wrong". FACT.
The MAJORITY believe in rugged self-reliance. FACT.

YOU said: Sorry to burst your bubble, conservatives, but you do not represent the majority opinion in this country.

YOU made the gross generalization, YOU support it with polls.

The left was ALL atwitter to have control of the Senate. Now they're bending each other over the desk. They can't agree on a damn thing. And it's hilarious.

The lunatics have taken over the asylum, and none of their leaders have told them they have to take off their helmets if they wanna lick the windows.

p.s. My original argument about healthcare remains accurate.

Wanna trim the fat, drug test all people that receive aid of any kind. One single failure and you can't even reapply for 6 months. 3 strikes and no more aid...ever.

Deport all illegals immediately. The jobs they are taking are now a commodity. So I don't wanna hear about them picking apples or working behind a rake for less money then the average American is willing to accept, cause it's BS. We are ALL willing to do what it takes to provide the food for our families. Can't possibly deport them all? Well then lets create some jobs and increase our scope. 2 birds, one stone...More Americans working means more Americans paying taxes.

We spend over a billion a day at War...s*** or get off the pot. Would that billion dollars/per day not be better spent creating jobs for Americans to simply secure our borders? Wow, imagine creating actual security. Let the CIA and NSA go back to what they do best, keeping track of the bad people.

I can come up with a metric ton of other ways to pay for UH. Real working ways that don't increase the deficit nor our damn taxes. The answer to decreasing a deficit isn't more spending. Our Gov isn't capable of managing anything anymore, so why the hell do we think a UH plan will work?

The very best our Gov has to offer, the very best decisions, the smartest and brightest leaders among us, have gotten us exactly where we are today. In a recession, attacking the free market, at war on multiple fronts, infrastructure failing across the Nation, education system that's so far underfunded we're pumping out mass numbers of dumb under achieving kids that will only continue our damn decline. I could go on and on and on...

Now you want the Gov to manage our health care? No. I have exactly zero faith in our Govs ability to manage anything.

WD

"First sentence in your first link:
"Just 42 percent of voters support Democrats' health care reform plans even though a majority wants Congress to pass some version of reform, according to a new poll released Monday. "

Read it again. Against the industry influenced Democratic plan, a majority is in favor of reform.

Your second link to Fox has no public survey figures in it at all.

Link #3 again deals only with the plan in Congress and not what the public in general wants. However, there is one figure in particular that indicates what the public is looking for:

"...As for those not affiliated with either major party, 70% are opposed if the public option is dropped. That’s up from 62% in the previous survey..."

Link #4 again only deals with what's coming out of the industry-influenced committees and not dealing with what the American people really want and need. But, from your 4th link:

"More than seven in 10 Americans, including majorities across party lines, say they think Obama and congressional Democrats should adjust the health-care legislation to appeal to some Republican lawmakers. Half credit the Democrats with making a good-faith effort to do so already, while most, 62 percent, say the GOP is not returning the favor."

A 70% in favor of doing something about it as opposed to just killing it is pretty overwhelming.

Try this general poll that doesn't refer to the specific plan in Congress:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...shtml

"A clear majority of Americans -- 72 percent -- support a government-sponsored health care plan to compete with private insurers, a new CBS News/New York Times poll finds. Most also think the government would do a better job than private industry at keeping down costs and believe that the government should guarantee health care for all Americans....

...When presented with the option of a government-administered health insurance plan similar to Medicare to compete with private health insurance companies, 72 percent are in favor and just 20 percent oppose. Even 50 percent of Republicans favor that option."

Unfortunately, that's not the type of bill we're seeing coming out of Congress."

AZ- Your polls were dealing with the specific plan in Congress and not what Americans in general want.

WD

Thats your problem!

But you did believe the results in the last election

Watch when happens again next week

Almost like NICO. The vast majority of members are car enthusiasts. There are those who just have a problem or want to learn a little about their car, but for the most part, it's just "modders". I personally stay away from news papers, news websites, and TV newcasts because it's always negative, always unprofessional, and always skewed.

Give me some real news that applies to me, not some crap about some dumb b**** who took fertility drugs and had 18 babies.

The nation is nearly split on the public option, with more people favoring the public option by about 5%, but neither above 50%.

However, at the same time, the majority believe the government will get too involved in health care, costs will rise, etc etc.

I'm going to have to find these numbers. brb

As for "the public option", is it any public option or the public option Congress is kicking around? I kind of think that when people are asked about a public option they are only referring to the Congressional garbage. There are immensely better ways to do a public option.

Yeah, not do one at all.

Bingo.

See my original post for the reasons why.

How is it that the nincompoops who SUPPORT a public option can POSSIBLY foresee the government actually running it with any competency?

As far as I'm concerned, none of the people arguing about it need it. SO why the discussion?

Off course people will bash the source and not look at the numbers - But this bears repeating and re-reading: http://www.foxnews.com/politic...erage/

People only attack the source when they run out of competant things to debate. If they can't argue against it, they dismiss it entirely.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/...s.php

When you have to make a profit, you charge more. What a novel concept!

+1

I came out of school SoL for healthcare. What did I do? I got a job, and purchased my own, while living within my means and supporting myself.

Health care is not a right. It is a privilege. Every single human in the united states has the means, and more than enough tools and current government assistance to get out of whatever they are in and afford health care (or as stated before, lead a HEALTHIER LIFESTYLE and not NEED healthcare).

all this crying and complaining makes me sick, what happened to the determination to succeed that used to drive americans? dont have money to eat? GET A JOB. Think you're too good for a certain level of job? starve to death for all i care. we dont need people like you in our society anyway.

Quote, originally posted by Fred »

Gerry's knob is soooo smooth.

Quote, originally posted by 93coupe »

poop slinging ninja baby

The Daily Krunch 10-21-09

Marla: You shot yourself?
Jack: Yes, but it's ok. Marla look at me. I'm really ok. Trust me. Everything's gonna be fine.

I hope like hell that you never have to face what's out there when you're 55-65 or have to face what happened in the 1930s.

You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it? Sounds like you're too busy waiting for the government to take care of those people in need while you complain but do nothing about it. Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.

Sorry to rant like that, but I'm tired of seeing my friends get the shaft and no help offerred from those who b**** the loudest.

You have a right to life in this country. Civilized countries around the world see basic healthcare as part of that right to life. They don't let some beancounter sit behind a desk and make the decision who dies and who lives based on whether or not the CEO needs a new Mercedes.

So your 55-65 and arent getting ready to retire yet? Or havent put away ANY money to sustain your lifestyle if the unthinkable happens? Not to mention, I said there are plenty of current, government funded aid for people like this ALREADY. There is no need for the govt to take over the health care industry as well. My point of view on your statements bleed into my belief about how people should live financially too though, so we wont really get into this much further.

Quote »

I hope like hell that you never have to face what's out there when you're 55-65 or have to face what happened in the 1930s.

Me too dude, me too. But if it did, you know what, I would do what I had to do to survive, and a government handout would be the last thing on my list of places to look. I have a bit more pride than that.

Quote »

You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it? Sounds like you're too busy waiting for the government to take care of those people in need while you complain but do nothing about it. Put your money where your mouth is, buddy.

I dont recall this and will not respond in a similarly combative way, please link me the post and I can explain myself further.

That could happen to anyone.

The CEO can drop dead of a stress-induced heart attack.

How about talking about the other side (the OTHER 99% of people)? The ones who work hard, retire, and live happily ever after?

We don't write legislation for the 1% or for the 'theoreticals'. Sorry Steve.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

You mentioned in another thread that you would be willing to sponsor someone in need. Why the hell aren't you doing it?

Who's to say we're not?

You don't know where my income goes, or my charity, or my volunteering, or my non-financial support.

The only one you can question is you. That's only fair, and you know it.

Quote, originally posted by srellim234 »

Sorry to rant like that, but I'm tired of seeing my friends get the shaft and no help offerred from those who b**** the loudest.

I'd bet none of them wants a handout. They're probably good, upstanding, proud men and women.

There's help out there - Unfortunately, in this day and age, faith-based support is so un-P.C., it's almost taboo... Which is stupid, but whatever.

I think the rest of your rant is kinda exaggerated and emotional, and I know you to be rational and reasonable, so I'll skip those parts.

The 2008 AMA National Health Insurer health card report can give us a glimpse into the future based on the number of claims denied. Who was the worse? Was it Aetna, Anthem, CIGNA, others? No, it was Medicare who had the highest percentage of claims.

Isn't that special

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/p...d.pdf

"Here's what we're doing because we're doing it RIGHT NOW in the private sector and it's working." Not "Here's what we should or are willing to do." If the commitment to help your fellow man in that manner was truly there, you'd already be doing it and you'd be telling us how well it is working.

I'm all for the private sector: I think a for-profit management company running a non-profit healthcare system for those in need is workable and sustainable. Someone like Kaiser Permanente, who's been really quiet and successful through all of this, would probably be willing to bid on it. They have the experience from medical manufacturing, doctors, hospitals, insurance and contracts in their repertoire right now. We could let them set up a free-standing system or integrate it into their current system as they saw fit.

It can be done successfully; the 2004 study demonstrates that.

The right to life for many people in this world includes a right to life, not just a right to be born.

Sorry for the emotional part of the above rant, but I'm truly sick and tired of the lack of empathy and sympathy from you guys regarding people who did bust their butts in the private sector, see themselves now getting screwed and are not getting the right to life they should be. That includes those who are still working in the private sector and are getting cut off by the insurance bean counters from things like cancer care and can't get affordable coverage anywhere else. My feeling is, "Why CAN'T we do something for THOSE people?" That's the magnanimous American way and history of our country regarding others. Let's bring that aid home for Americans.

That whole notion is virtually the whole idea behind insurance. Everyone pays into the pool and when someone needs it, they extract what they need from the pool, therefore being sponsored by all the people who paid in. Just that in the way explained here, we're extracting from the pool in a different way.