Y33 ATF Cooler - Another mounting location?

[Skibane]

Will be changing the ATF and filter in my brand-spanking new (to me!) 2000, and want to add a cooler while I'm at it. Maxnix's fender well mounting location sounds very slick, but I'm concerned about having virtually no airflow while sitting in traffic (and not sure that an electric fan will also fit).

I'm not too crazy about mounting the cooler in front of the A/C condensor, since it will be dumping extra heat into both the A/C and engine coolant.

So, I'm considering mounting a large, "low-profile" cooler between the radiator and the belt-driven engine fan. There's at least 2 inches of clearance between radiator and fan blades - Will installing a 3/4" thick cooler reduce the airflow significantly? Ideally, the cooler would be a long, narrow model that would be located as low on the radiator as possible (thereby receiving cooler air). Also, having warm engine air blowing over it should eliminate any problems with over-cooling the ATF in cold weather.

Anyone tried this?

[elwesso]

Remember the ATF shoudl stay cooler than the coolant in the radiator.. I share the same concern as you do with Brian's location. I investigated this as an option, but I chose to put it in the location stated.

The best place IMO is in between the radiator and condensor... You get the airflow BEFORE the radiator which is good... I prefer to have it down low or up top, so that you get fresh air from down low or up by the grille, and air from the fan...

[Q45tech]

The coolant system is the only self regulating system [thermostat] therefore the ATF heat can at least be compensated for by having heat in front of radiator.

[Skibane]

The best place IMO is in between the radiator and condensor... You get the airflow BEFORE the radiator which is good...

I agree that's the ideal location - if there was enough room between them (needs to be at least 3/4 inch). Also, removing the radiator just to install a cooler would turn a 2-hour job into an all-dayer (or at least it would with my mad mechanix skillz! ).
Modified by Skibane at 1:52 AM 12/31/2006

[FarFetched]

Just for kicks and giggles check my post (I cannot find it). Regardless, I've installed it in fronty of A/C condenser. Y33 mostly in Auto A/C mode, so condenser fan runs constantly, pulling ait trhrough both AT cooler and condenser. It would get hot, but it is touchable at least. Cheers!

[maxnix]

If you are concerned about idle (shifting into neutral during a stop helps) or very low speed cooling, the best idea would be to get a ducted fan just like the active cooler on a G50. Same location too, but you can also mount it on the passenger side on a FY33.

The AC condenser fan does not run continously when the AC is on.
Modified by maxnix at 11:33 AM 8/19/2007

[Skibane]

Just for kicks and giggles check my post (I cannot find it). Regardless, I've installed it in fronty of A/C condenser. Y33 mostly in Auto A/C mode, so condenser fan runs constantly, pulling ait trhrough both AT cooler and condenser. It would get hot, but it is touchable at least. Cheers!

I remember seeing that post, but couldn't find it either -

Whether or not the A/C fan is always running shouldn't make a lot of difference, since the belt-driven fan will still be pulling some air through it.

Still, there's that pesky problem of dumping the transmission heat into the A/C condensor - something I'd rather avoid here in south Texas.
Modified by Skibane at 1:53 AM 12/31/2006

[elwesso]

I really dont think it will be that big of an issue......

BUT, why make things harder than they have to be. Instead of rigging some goofy fan into the wheel well, just put it in front of the AC condensor fan and rig up a switch to turn it on whenever you want.

[Q45tech]

Rig a switch? Why not a thermal switch so that it comes on when needed......set and forget ...............with a dash led to tell you what's happening. And a tricolor led [integrated in a single led] to tell you the fan is drawing current and has not failed.

[Flagship-Q]

Rig a switch? Why not a thermal switch so that it comes on when needed......set and forget ...............with a dash led to tell you what's happening. And a tricolor led [integrated in a single led] to tell you the fan is drawing current and has not failed.

Tech - could you elaborate a little? I think the thermal switch would be ideal, I just don't know much about them. It would be nice if the O.E. aux. pusher fan could be used somehow. Thanks!

[Skibane]

BUT, why make things harder than they have to be. Instead of rigging some goofy fan into the wheel well, just put it in front of the AC condensor fan and rig up a switch to turn it on whenever you want.

I assume you mean installing it between the electric fan(s) and the A/C condensor - which would involve moving the electric fan(s) far enough forward to accommodate it. Again, manually activating the fan might not be necessary, since the belt-driven fan would still be sucking some air through it all the time.

Still, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of mounting it inside the engine compartment, between the radiator and the belt-driven fan. It's true that it'll pick up some heat from the engine coolant and A/C condensor, but so does the original cooler located in the bottom of the radiator tank - and on some vehicles (including good-sized pickups), that approach seems to work OK. The problem would seem to be not with the location of the Y33's in-tank cooler, but rather with its insufficient size.

I have a DMM that's capable of measuring temperatures - guess I'll have to try it, and see if the results are acceptable.
Modified by Skibane at 1:53 AM 12/31/2006

[maxnix]

Whether or not the A/C fan is always running shouldn't make a lot of difference, since the belt-driven fan will still be pulling some air through it.

The engine fan's clutch is not always engaged, although there is always some rotation. It all comes down to how long you are stopped at idle while in D. If you are moving +25 mph, then the only issue is additional thermal load from in line heat exchangers.

[maxnix]

The problem would seem to be not with the location of the Y33's in-tank cooler, but rather with its insufficient size.

First, it is not an in tank cooler but rather an in tank heat exchanger to warm the ATF up to operating temperature.

It's size and configuration are minimal.

If you never go north of the Nueces in winter, I would by pass it all together.

Then again you could always chrome it and use it as a hood ornament. You would be the first.

[Skibane]

The engine fan's clutch is not always engaged, although there is always some rotation.

That's true, but it's usually engaged when the transmission needs it the most (during hot weather, at low speeds, etc.). Also, it's inherently more reliable than an electric fan - no relay, motor or thermostatic switch to worry about. Finally, if it ever fails, you'll know about it soon enough!

Modified by Skibane at 11:28 AM 4/30/2006
Modified by Skibane at 1:53 AM 12/31/2006

[Skibane]

Well, here's the arrangement I finally decided on:

Flex-A-Lite #FLX-3820 7.5 x 21.5 x 0.75" transmission cooler kit from Summit Racing, and

Perma-Cool #PRM-10678 ATF spin-on remote filter kit (also from Summit).

The cooler will mount between the AC condensor and radiator (turns out there is room after all), and the filter will mount to the left front bumper support, in the space between the bumper grille and the left electric fan. The existing in-tank ATF cooler will be retained, so the revised plumbing will be:

From transmission to existing cooler, then to new cooler, then to ATF filter, and back to transmission. Essentially, the new filter and fluid are spliced into the cooled fluid outlet hose on the existing cooler, which is on the (see driver's side of the radiator. The hot fluid hose from the transmission (on the passenger side of the radiator) is left unmodified.

EDIT: This arrangement has since been changed to put both coolers in parallel, due to backpressure considerations (see later posts).

As it turned out, I was glad I had to pull the radiator to mount the cooler, because this is what I found on the front-facing side:

A compressed air blow gun wouldn't budge this crud, and a pressure washer just barely did it without bending the fins. I don't think there's any way it could be cleaned while still mounted behind the AC condensor.

ATF cooler mounted on back of AC condensor. Several right-angle hose barbs were used to make both hoses exit through the same small slot cut into the side of the fan shroud (not shown). The original 1/4" thick rubber mounting spacers supplied with the cooler kit were too thick to fit between the condensor and radiator, so I made some 1/8" thick spacers from a sheet of corrugated plastic instead.

Radiator and fan shroud mounted over ATF cooler, with the red circle showing the exit point of both hoses. The outlet hose passes through the radiator support to the filter, and the inlet hose drops down to pick up the output from the existing tank cooler in the bottom of the radiator.

Filter connection to ATF cooler on other side of radiator support. Outlet hose from filter follows frame back to original ATF return pipe below crankshaft pulley.

Since the fan, shroud and radiator all have to come out, this was the perfect time to replace the 4 belts and 4 radiator hoses - makes it much easier to work in there without the fan and radiator in the way! You also have a good excuse to completely drain and flush the coolant, since the radiator will have to be drained anyway.

Just finished this evening, and everything looks good so far. The ATF filter is in a handy location for a quick temperature check - You can reach under the bumper and feel for warmth to make sure that you've got fluid flowing the right direction through it.

Modified by Skibane at 8:34 PM 7/26/2006

Modified by Skibane at 8:41 PM 7/26/2006

Modified by Skibane at 8:46 PM 7/26/2006
Modified by Skibane at 11:25 PM 8/3/2006

[Q451990]

Very nice write-up! I may have to consider this external AFT filter... I already have the cooler - but I really like the idea of an easy access filter!

Heath

[Q451990]

Alright... now you have me thinking about adding a filter! Did the instructions say anything specifically about how the filter has to be oriented? Could I mount it somewhere with the filter facing upward, or sideways?

I would be tempted to just replace it with each oil change... waaaay overkill I'm sure, but it appears that these kits use readily available oil filters - so I could by some in bulk on sale or something... sounds like cheap insurance!

Thanks!

Heath

[Skibane]

Alright... now you have me thinking about adding a filter! Did the instructions say anything specifically about how the filter has to be oriented? Could I mount it somewhere with the filter facing upward, or sideways?

There's nothing in the instructions about how it has to be oriented. I wanted mine mounted gasket-side-up, so that it doesn't make a mess when I change it, and I can completely pre-fill a new filter.

I would be tempted to just replace it with each oil change... waaaay overkill I'm sure, but it appears that these kits use readily available oil filters - so I could by some in bulk on sale or something... sounds like cheap insurance!

Perma-Cool includes a short list of compatible "Ford-style" oil filters, including the Fram PH8A full-sized and PH43 tight-fit model numbers. Haven't checked, but I would guess that Wal-Mart sells equivalent SuperTech ST8A and ST43 filters, for about 2 bucks apiece. Auto Zone also sells the same filters (manufactured by Champion Labs) under the STP brand for about 3 bucks.

Note that a replacement filter is just part of the cost: A full-sized filter holds almost an entire quart, so if you're using synthetic ATF, the cost of the fluid could easily be several times the cost of a cheap filter!
Modified by Skibane at 1:54 AM 12/31/2006

[FarFetched]

You can always use in-line filetr. Ford E and F series utilize it. When R+R transm, install in-line transm to prevent new damage from "possible" contamination from old transmission. Spin-on filters are neat, but whatever suits your needs. Chhers!

[FarFetched]

I noticed you've put a few too many 90 degree elbows. I wouldn't do that 90 elbow creates unwanted friction thus "possible" reduction in pressure. I recall Air brakes rule you can have max of "2" 90 degree elbow per line (If my memory serves me right). Something to chew on !Cheers!

[Q45tech]

Measure [read] ATF line pressure to/from oem heat exchanger..........typically 20-35 psi ------not very significant.

In fact if you delete in rad exchanger and add larger external the back pressure will go down ---GOOD. Having both in parallel solves potential clog problem and auto regulates the temperature based on viscosity/flow some what.

Still when you go to the trouble to mount filters exchangers why not mount a thermal sensor...........cheap single wire and ground type like inside coolant temp at minimum.

What you are looking for is a warning of GROSS overheat above 176F in return line.

What about a old used rad condenser fan switch that turns a tiny light on at 189-199F

[maxnix]

Very neat installation, I I like the external filter.

Two things I wonder about is the increased efficiency of the stacked plate design compared to tube and fins you used, and the thermal loading from the condenser to the ATF cooler, and from both to the radiator in TX summer heat. Still, has to be better than tank heat exchangers.

Q45tech is correct, we need guages like Sijoko. Before and after ATF cooler would be best.

[Rex]

While we're discussing transmission coolers ...

Has anyone ever considered using one of the radially finned units (see attached pic)?

Couldn't this mount in front of the radiator without blocking as much of it?

Any ideas why it wouldn't work well?

They're available in 12" ($33), 15" ($36), 18" ($39), 24" ($49) & 30" ($55) single line as well as a 12" ($47), 15" ($47) and 18" ($55) dual line. Not sure on the diameter or the "cooling effect" in comparison to the B&M, but I recall reading it was rated for heavier vehicles???

[Rex]

More interesting info ...

Select the correct transmission cooler by determining where there is enough space to mount it. The diagram on the left numbers the best three positions to mount the transmission cooler in order. Transmission coolers are more efficient when they receive maximum air flow. At Position 1, the transmission cooler is 100% efficient. Position 2, between the air conditioning condenser and radiator, is 75% efficient while Position 3, between the radiator and fan, is only 60% efficient. If positions 2 or 3 are used, a larger transmission cooler will be needed to compensate for the loss of cooling power. If this is the case, choose a transmission cooler that is one or two sizes larger.

Tech Tips: Transmission fluid can not be over cooled, but it is critical in extreme cold conditions to allow the vehicle to warm up before driving.

[maxnix]

Select the correct transmission cooler by determining where there is enough space to mount it. The diagram on the left numbers the best three positions to mount the transmission cooler in order. Transmission coolers are more efficient when they receive maximum air flow. At Position 1, the transmission cooler is 100% efficient. Position 2, between the air conditioning condenser and radiator, is 75% efficient while Position 3, between the radiator and fan, is only 60% efficient.

Tech Tips: Transmission fluid can not be over cooled, but it is critical in extreme cold conditions to allow the vehicle to warm up before driving.

Well, that means there are some other 100% efficient locations that don't thermal load the condensor, nor the radiator.

B&M have a bypass valve that shunts fluid around cooler when it is cold.

Saw a website once where these guys reduced ¼ mile times by .1 -.2 seconds by cooling ATF from 176° F to 140° F.

[Skibane]

ATF pressure readings, as measured at the hose connections under the crankshaft pulley:

Original in-tank cooler (no spin-on filter, no right-angle hose barbs)

Original in-tank cooler, aftermarket cooler and spin-on filter, all connected in series

Original in-tank and aftermarket coolers connected in parallel, in series with spin-on filter.

Dennis pretty much nailed it - Much lower backpressure by connecting both coolers in parallel.
Modified by Skibane at 1:55 AM 12/31/2006

[maxnix]

So the conclusion is the little coke can heat exchanger in the bottom radiator tank is a choke point?

Excellent data! Thanks.

Quick question: Does you finned tube cooler have a thermal bypass valve like the B&M stacked plate design?

If you have the guages, maybe I need to come down and run a similar test with my B&M 70264.
Modified by maxnix at 11:31 AM 8/19/2007

[Skibane]

So the conclusion is the little coke can heat exchanger in the bottom radiator tank is a choke point?

It causes a significant pressure drop (40+ PSI under heavy throttle). Whether or not this is a problem is debatable.

It should be noted that as the pressure drop of the cooler is reduced, the back-pressure of the return line becomes more of a factor (20+ PSI under heavy throttle).[/Quote]

Does you finned tube cooler have a thermal bvalve like the B&M stacked plate design?

No thermal valve in the Flex-A-Lite cooler.

According to B&M's website, their stacked-plate coolers don't contain a 'valve' per se, but rather an alternate passage for fluid flow whenever the ATF is too thick to pass through the plates.

BTW, you're welcome to borrow the gauges - shoot me an e-mail with a shipping address, and I'll box 'em up!

[email protected]
Modified by Skibane at 1:56 AM 12/31/2006

[silver2k2]

Interesting topic

I am still shopping for a q45, but this will be my first mod. I wonder if the Parallel solution would cool less then the Series solution. Maybe the pressure was lower because the fluid was flowing through the path of least resistance, and while we hope that would be aftermarket cooler we would need more data for sure

I was thinking about using thermostatically controlled valves. I like Q45Techs Idea, but I like to keep extra wires to a min, this would allow the car to utilize the stock "cooler" for warm-up then route fluid to the trans cooler when needed.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...QrdZ1

I know it has been stated that you can not overcool the transmission fluid, It seems to me thats why they have it running through radiator right?

My current plan would be1)stock external filter 2) stock heat exchanger3) Valve4) External cooler

I would mount it in between Radiator and condenser. Even with AC on I doubt that the air coming off will be great enough to heat my transfluid past it safe thresholds, and dumping extra heat into the radiator is not a concern as Q45tech stated it self regulates

Of course I am not sure if it even gets cold enough where I live for it to be an issue coldest it gets here is 35.

[maxnix]

I know it has been stated that you can not overcool the transmission fluid, It seems to me thats why they have it running through radiator right?

...... dumping extra heat into the radiator is not a concern as Q45tech stated it self regulates.

No, it is to bring the ATF up to operating temperature faster so it can achieve lock-up.

Depends if it is still in its operating envelope. Very easy to exceed in hot weather, old coolant, worn radiator, lots of idle, etc. in any combiination.