Q45 Rear sway bar installation with pics

[DrewQ45]

Recently changed oil and had to dispose of the old fluids anyway so I paid a visit to Napa auto parts. I wasn’t expecting much, but struck gold for less than twelve bucks! The guys at the Napa here are great! They let me hang out in the back alone looking through various boxes on the shelf until I found what I needed. (never got that level of trust when I lived in NYC…go figure?) I was back there whistling and taking all the time in the world till I found a ¼” link kit for some other car. Now I have the washers with NEW rubber bushings.

...See the old bushings that came with the bar were quite hard and worn and deformed. I had planned to use flat washers to compress them (ala Q45tech) till I could get a set. I ended up changing all the concave washers (except for the couple that are fixed in place) because the new bushings were much beefier with a larger circumference and would not seat as well. Since I can get bushings so cheap, I can now experiment with different degrees of bushing compression and not have to worry too much about splitting them.

Here's early in the game when I was still experimenting with flat washers. I now have no need since the new bushings are so thick, I could barely catch the nuts. As a matter of fact, I had to slice 1/8” off the two top bushings to catch the nuts. There was no need to cut the bottom bushings.



Old and new side by side. Notice how much longer the OEM link bolts are. I used the OEM bolts and changed everything else. Note bushing size difference as well as seat washers. I also put the box in the shot for anyone who wants to try this. Just go to Napa and ask for the number on the box.



Close up of the box for all you Stevie Wonders and Ray Charles out there…



Pay close attention to this one. Getting the bar into place took like two minutes. I fed the bar into position BEHIND the diff, then slid it forwards to it's proper position up near the drive shaft flange. There was no need to mess with the exhaust and even though I took off the driver's side rear tire, I probably could have left it on where this was concerned. Here's how you start the bar off...



Now I have moved it forward to it's mounting location. Quite simple…



Driver's side main support bushing…Connected ALL nuts and bolts loosely before tightening anything. I also sprayed all the holes with WD-40 as they had never been used and were quite cruddy.



Please note that the car is supposed to be sitting on all 4 tires for the end link's to line up properly. With car on jack stands, I jacked up the lower control arms instead providing the same effect and allowed me to stay under the car.

Here's with the bushing in place. This is a cut bushing..I ended up loosening the top nut and re-centered the bushing you see here as it was slightly off center. The washer below it is fixed and is smaller than the new washers making the larger bushing harder to seat. Maybe I should have sliced a little more off the bushings and sat a new washer inside the fixed washer but I was thirsty and my friend Bud said screw it... next time.



Top bushing (cut)



All done… bad pic but I wasn't jacking the car up again for you slackers…

'

Bonus for DIY... while underneath, I discovered a bubble in the driver's side tire on the inside. The fronts are new and I just replaced the pass side rear with a new tire (yesterday) after picking up a sharp object which tore a hole in it. These are 18" sumitomo HTR + and I was able to get it for $57 with my road hazard protection. Now with the bubble in the remaining tire, I'll have brand new set all around. (gonna hit em with the warranty/road haz again). I'm so devious!!!

Drew

BTW, I haven't test driven yet so I'll post my observations in a day or two.

[3Q Jay]

Drew, nice job, now go drive and tellus about it!

i got all new rubber for the rear bar from IoS recently. gonna do that with fy33 rear brake upgrade in near future....

[DrewQ45]

Drew, nice job, now go drive and tellus about it!

i got all new rubber for the rear bar from IoS recently. gonna do that with fy33 rear brake upgrade in near future....

How much did said rubbers cost you?

I'm waiting for some exhaust hangers to arrive from IoS before I drive her anymore. I've been doing quite a bit on her lately...

zerothread?id=168926

.... and last time I was underneath I found that one of the hangers was almost torn in half. Should be here by today I think.



..Drew....

[Q45tech]

These pictures should help members understand how the bar couples to the suspension arm and ultimately to the wheel/tire.

The +- 3 inch motion range of the wheel gets reduced to a +- 3/4" motion of the bar.

Note that all 4 bushing stacked together almost exceed the ENTIRE motion range of the bar.

Over the narrow swing range you have +- 120 pounds attempting to stretch or compress these bushings and the converse on the otherside.

As the bar twists only the bushings can slip to allow the sub angle to change.

Installation of bushings while the wheels droop means you have to retension when the bar returns to normal angle - body weight on wheels.

As the rubber deforms and ages you must retension............if fact a good idea to do it 2 weeks after new bushing install...........the rear stiffness starts to noticeably fall away progressively.

It would be great if someone could find a source for these in prothane or hard nylon so about half could be substitued for rubber oem.........don't measure the thickness of rubber uncompressed.

[Q45tech]

"Stabar-related failure points seem to be in either the endlinks or in the chassis bracketry rather than in the bar itself.

The endlink bushing arrangement that uses split bushings to approximate a ball joint is commonly to blame for endlink failure, particularly if the bushing material is fairly hard (like poly) and/or the endlink bolts are overtorqued. Usually they let go through the threads near the nut. Lest anyone think that this issue is confined to amateur suspension tinkering, Ford has experienced this very problem on its Explorer and Expedition lines with the hard bushings. I've seen that one up close and personal, having had to replace an endlink on my son's Expedition last year. Bottom line here seems to be if you're trying to eliminate endlink compliance to improve the linearity and increase the effectiveness of a given size bar you'll want a better approximation of a ball joint than a split bush.

Chassis side failures also exist, though these are mainly related to the installation of stabars that are substantially more rigid than OE. Hondas with aftermarket rear bars commonly tear out their attachments and I think it's the late-model F-bodies that have been known to bend/crack/tear the bracketry when aftermarket solid bars in the 35 mm range have been installed. "

"As far as better ball joint approximations go, I'd started to see differently configured endlinks in a few vehicles, most memorably in the C5. But it isn't something that couldn't be done less expensively. Right now I've got a little experiment going on in an older car with the split bush pair contoured on the washer sides to better approximate a spherical surface when installed, re-shaped the washers to suit, and made the through-holes cone-shaped. I see no reason that these pieces couldn't be made that way in the first place (and probably should have been in the Ford SUV instances)."

"unless you're going to autocross or open-track this car you'll want to maintain the overall front and rear roll resistances in at least a semblance of the stock balance. Expect to become very familiar with the assorted motion ratios. Otherwise it's entirely possible to end up with some, ummmm, exciting handling characteristics. So you'll need to consider the bar design and the spring selection in conjunction with each other; otherwise you'll end up tuning by throwing more new parts/part numbers at it than necessary."

"We use M&M shaped rubbers in our version of that sta bar linkage, and cupped washers. I have seen suspsenions that just use flat washers and cylindrical rubbers. Which makes my skin crawl."

"In many designs, particularly those on older (US) domestic cars, the attachment of endlinks to the stabar (AKA antiroll bar) and the control arm is through compliant bushings, one at each end of the link. For cheap and for simplicity of installation (and probably for NVH reasons as well) these bushings are split in half, with one half going below whatever the endlink bolt is passing through and the other half going above.

While it's overall a poor attempt at simulating a proper ball joint, it's more than adequate for the vast majority of drivers.[/editorial]?

Production car, at around 0.8-0.9 g, will be using most of 80mm jounce and rebound, so call it 160 mm in 1600 mm track- 6 degrees

http://www.eng-tips.com/thread...ge=11

[Rex]

This has "article" written all over it. Well done.

[audtatious]

Keith, yes you are correct. I suggest making this an appropriate "article"?

[CrimsonQ]

Nice write-up Drew!

When I finally get areound to it, now I have a guide.

Now go replace that ol nasty exhaust LOL!!

[DrewQ45]

Nice write-up Drew!

When I finally get areound to it, now I have a guide.

Now go replace that ol nasty exhaust LOL!!

The OEM exhaust stays.... I paid $67 smackers to have those pieces cut out and welded.

I know it ain't pretty but there are no leaks and it's stable. Remember, this car grew up in Long Island, NY so it's underbody has seen it's share of salt. I'm in ATL now so rust progression has diminished greatly.

The only thing that worries me nowadays, as it should anyone with OEM exhaust (pretty or not), is whether the cats are robbing power at this point. I wish there was a way to test airflow through the CATs at this point versus new.

..Drew...

[DrewQ45]

These pictures should help members understand how the bar couples to the suspension arm and ultimately to the wheel/tire.

The +- 3 inch motion range of the wheel gets reduced to a +- 3/4" motion of the bar.

Note that all 4 bushing stacked together almost exceed the ENTIRE motion range of the bar.

Over the narrow swing range you have +- 120 pounds attempting to stretch or compress these bushings and the converse on the otherside.

As the bar twists only the bushings can slip to allow the sub angle to change.

Installation of bushings while the wheels droop means you have to retension when the bar returns to normal angle - body weight on wheels.

As the rubber deforms and ages you must retension............if fact a good idea to do it 2 weeks after new bushing install...........the rear stiffness starts to noticeably fall away progressively.

It would be great if someone could find a source for these in prothane or hard nylon so about half could be substitued for rubber oem.........don't measure the thickness of rubber uncompressed.

I don't know if I would want to go with hard bushings personally. I'd rather keep changing rubbers when worn as harder materials would transmit a level of harshness. I already have low profiled tires on 18" wheels, solid tension rods and CC springs to come.

Also, with regards to using flat washers for increasing bushing compression... I'm glad that's eliminated with the new rubbers. The flat washers elevate the bushing out of their concave seating which reduces their stability and linear uniformity. This would result in faster bushing wear (deformation as the bar twists and turns) and compromised functionality. The bushings really need to stay seated so they align.

Incidentally, while at Napa, I ran across another endlink set with red bushings which were coned on one side. They were too large though... had they been 1/4" I would have tried them. The seat washers were deeper to accomadate the cone and the red rubber seemed a bit harder of a composite versus the black bushings. Who needs a thicker or thinner bar?... just vary control via bushing type, size, shapes etc.

[Q45tech]

as it should anyone with OEM exhaust (pretty or not), is whether the cats are robbing power at this point. I wish there was a way to test airflow through the CATs at this point versus new.

Look at my back pressure method: Unscrew O2 and use gauge [0-20 psi not water column] obviously this is the most accurate method to analyse each part of exhaust............there is arguement but each 1 psi of at O2 backpressure is ~~1-2 HP potential lost due to back pressure.

Measure back pressure at the HP peak rpm 6,000 rpm and higher if you must.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or measure the plenum lower pressure at WOT as rpm progress to redline.

The plenum should drop from 18-20" HG to less than 1" HG which is =28" of water column.The industry standard for flow benching heads is 25" water column .

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Dwyer-...wItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-IN-BOX...sting

[Q45tech]

Look at my back pressure method: Unscrew O2 and use gauge [0-20 psi not water column] obviously this is the most accurate method to analyse each part of exhaust............there is arguement but each 1 psi of at O2 backpressure is ~~1-2 HP potential lost due to back pressure.

Measure back pressure at the HP peak rpm 6,000 rpm and higher if you must.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Or measure the plenum lower pressure at WOT as rpm progress to redline.

The plenum should drop from 18-20" HG to less than 1" HG which is =28" of water column.The industry standard for flow benching heads is 25" water column .

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Dwyer-...wItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-IN-BOX...sting

[PopPop]

Good job homeboy! Now which is harder Mark removing one 12mm Exhaust Hanger Flange bolt or removing 5 torqued lug nuts? Don't make it seem like it's so hard to remove and lower that same DS exhaust! You showed me another way besides the way I do it but, my way is more difficult in manuevering and takes longer!

[DrewQ45]

Good job homeboy! Now which is harder Mark removing one 12mm Exhaust Hanger Flange bolt or removing 5 torqued lug nuts? Don't make it seem like it's so hard to remove and lower that same DS exhaust! You showed me another way besides the way I do it but, my way is more difficult in manuevering and takes longer!

Well, to be honest...being new to this... I thought I would have had to remove the wheel and drop the exhaust - hence the wheel removal. In retrospect, neither was necessary when starting the bar behind the diff. Have you taken a look at my rusty exhaust? I was not going to touch it.

[elwesso]

Looks good... i'll have to turn this bad boy into an article sometime

[elwesso]

Made it into an article, just original post. ill go and edit it sometime and make necsssary changes.

[DrewQ45]

Drew, nice job, now go drive and tellus about it!

i got all new rubber for the rear bar from IoS recently. gonna do that with fy33 rear brake upgrade in near future....

Okay, I drove the Q yesterday.

First, let me say that Infiniti of Scottsdale is pissing me off. I ordered the exhaust hangers over a week ago along with the coolant filler neck and a can of BG quick clean. Called yesterday for package tracking info (since I hadn't seen it) and was told that my package hadn't even left yet. They were waiting on the hazmat paperwork so they could start shipping the BG cans via mail. I'm like WTF? I'm sitting here waiting...couldn't someone have informed me? I told them screw the BG and just send me the rest. ...I've been driving my truck since ordering the parts.

Anyway... the point is that I can't run the Q as I would like to test the bar since I'm afraid the exhaust hanger will shear through. I did take a few wide sweeping corners and it felt good... much less body lean.

Guess what though? The bar feels like it's overpowering the front suspension now. Maybe It takes a while to get used to the feel of it but it seems to have cancelled a lot of the front end feel that I got with Jeff's FSTB and revealed/magnified any weaknesses in my front suspension. The front feels a little edgier now. I suspect with these new thick bushings and all, it will die down in a few weeks or I'll get used to it. Has anyone else had this revalation or is it just me?

New springs and Blues are scheduled so I'm sure all that will change but this is my honest observation for now.

....Drew...

[Q45tech]

Just wait until you get to the FINE FEEL POINT where you can tighten or loosen the bottom nuts on front and rear bar in 1/4 turn increments and notice changes in how the car behaves. Then you get so you can feel the bushing material change with ambient temperature.

One with the car!

[Jeff Williams]

Feel the power of the force, Luke...er...Drew...er...Mark.

Buy another set of bushings, and replace the fronts. That should help some. You could also loosen the rears a 1/2 turn or so. Maybe experiment a bit with poly bushings.

Like Dennis said, as long as you can afford tires, play, play, play. That is what makes these cars fun.

I jsut ordered new cats, resonators, rear muffler, and BEAUTIFUL SS tips ala Magnaflow! There is a custom exhaust shop I will take Rob's pics of his exhaust to in the coming weeks, to get a new system. There is a Dyno Pros shop across from the office. Maybe I will get them to do a few pulls before I change the exhaust, then a couple after. I wish I had a bunch of excess money lying around.

[elwesso]

Make sure they can replicate the exhaust!!!

[3Q Jay]

Drew- here's the pictures /part numbers of the active rear bar stuff.

don't remember exactly, but pretty cheap something in the 25-35$ range for all here.

[DrewQ45]

Drew- here's the pictures /part numbers of the active rear bar stuff.

don't remember exactly, but pretty cheap something in the 25-35$ range for all here.

Hmmm..... Wes, I think you might want to add GQ's post to the article. I thought these would cost more. They probably do by now with infiniti's price increases.

[Flagship-Q]

I really appreciate this article as I have just recieved my Active front and rear sways but haven't installed them yet. I think the way I'm gonna go is to use the O.E. active bushings and links (trying to somewhat preserve ride quality). I'm holding off until I round up all replacement parts to do a suspension rehab all at once - Cali coils (in possession), Tokico Blues, FSTB (in possession), O.E. tension rod bushings (IP) and new upper links. All combined should make for one nice handling machine!

[elwesso]

I really appreciate this article as I have just recieved my Active front and rear sways but haven't installed them yet. I think the way I'm gonna go is to use the O.E. active bushings and links (trying to somewhat preserve ride quality). I'm holding off until I round up all replacement parts to do a suspension rehab all at once - Cali coils (in possession), Tokico Blues, FSTB (in possession), O.E. tension rod bushings (IP) and new upper links. All combined should make for one nice handling machine!

I like that plan....

[jamesmost]

Well, to be honest...being new to this... I thought I would have had to remove the wheel and drop the exhaust - hence the wheel removal. In retrospect, neither was necessary when starting the bar behind the diff. Have you taken a look at my rusty exhaust? I was not going to touch it.

Drew U need rear lower strut bushings, just replaced mine and the ride difference was night and day

[DrewQ45]

Drew U need rear lower strut bushings, just replaced mine and the ride difference was night and day

James,

How much did they run you? Any pics?
Modified by DrewQ45 at 1:12 PM 5/10/2006

[Q45tech]

Remember the extra washer goes between the top and bottom nuts to allow extra adjustability.

[DrewQ45]

Remember the extra washer goes between the top and bottom nuts to allow extra adjustability.

Tech,

I'd love to drive your car and have you drive mine just to see what a Q45 maintained to the hilt feels like and to see where I can improve.

Drop me a line on my e-mail sometime. I'm downtown.... only 15 mins away from T3 on weekdays and I leave work at 3:30 PM

...Drew....

[Q45tech]

Well maintained,....... of late I've slipped need to replace the rear shocks [65k] and rotors [they are all just at the minimum] plus I have 235 front and 215 rear Pilot H4* and the sun roof motor/clutch is slipping again and the drivers window regulator is making noise sometimes and the door hinges needs replacing again oh and a steering boot has cracked.......in a few weeks maybe when I clean the piles of trash out.......think there are 3 radio in rear floor board.........assorted greasy parts in rags.

*I keep looking at the 4 - 16x 7.5 300zx wheels I've had for years [drove to Bham to pick them up 3 years ago [lazy - one needs to be slightly straightened/balanced $125].

Nothing $2000 plus some time [8 hours on a Saturday] won't fix.

Had to swap radios, a cassette got stuck [no right wing AM radio, no NRP, no books on tape] was a top prority.

Oh I forgot two rock chips in the aftermarket windshield and the drivers seat started to crack.......another $300.

It's a never ending battle but then again it's been 3 years [70k] since we worked all day on the car, I usually get a few hours here and there.

I don't worry about the look of the Q, just mechanicals. Need a paint job very badly========= but why? At 306,000 miles that's like 90 in car years.

Hard to walk the talk every day!

[jamesmost]

James,

How much did they run you? Any pics?

Modified by DrewQ45 at 1:12 PM 5/10/2006

NO PICS had to remove spindals , cut them out and have the new ones pressed intha bushings were only $10 each, infiniti sent me the wrong ones 2x, i will check an see if i still have the bill or bag from bushings for part #