Deciding on a brake upgrade..

[elwesso]

Come spring there will be some upgraded brakes on the Q... I am just deciding what i want for sure...

I already have Z32 rear brakes, which are identical to many skyline brakes anyway...

Ive pretty much narrowed it down to two choices..

1. R32 skyline GT-R (non Vspec) with 296x32mm rotors, 4 piston calipers2. R34 Skyline GTT with 310x30mm rotors, 4 piston calipers...

Whatever brakes I get, will match nicely to the rears that I have (Z32 rears, 297x18, 2 piston calipers).....

The obvious choice is to use the R34 brakes but the R32 brakes have 3 main things that are to be considered...

1. R32 brakes can clear some 16in wheels, but probably a non issue since i have 17s anyway..2. R32 brakes cost maybe 200 less3. R32 brakes have the much coveted 32mm width, which is what dennis has said is the key thickness for the Q, to prevent premature warping.....

I guess the bottom line is, if I can attain the same stopping distances or close to with the R32s, it seems just as good to go with those, keep the 32mm rotors, and call it a day. but if there will be significant differences with the R34 (IE worth the extra money) then ill go with them.....

I know that stopping probably wont decrease significantly with this upgrade, i just want more solid brakes, that I can flog and not warp..... Plus 240 guys love Q45 brakes!!! If you play your cards right you can get a better brake system for about what it costs to rehab the Q brakes... I think ill be spending less that what ROB spent on his brakes, and ill outstop him

My Q (albeit the rear pads are SHOT) has that "i dont want to stop" feeling, and I intend on eliminating that...

I know that the R32 brakes use regular Z32 pads, so thats good... I dont know about the R34s, but that shouldnt be much of an issue..... Fortunately those are one of the easier things to get a hold of from a skyline...!

again the sizes are as follows

Q45 brakes

Front- 280x28mm, axially vented, 2 piston calipersrear- 296x9mm, solid, 1 piston calipers

REAR BRAKE with any of these- Z32 rears, 297x18mm 2 piston calipers, axially vented

R32 GT-R non VSPEC- 296x32mm, 4 piston calipersR34 GTT- 310x30

[Jeff Williams]

Have you considered getting the bracket, so you can put the 13" 3000GT rotors on the front, with the Z32 or Z34 calipers?

[sijoko]

Wes,

As you know, I have the R32 brakes. I am thinking of upgrading to the 3000gt VR4 rotors and using the Skyline calipers with brackets to relocate them.

The Skyline R32 rotors are hard to find in stock. They are usually backordered.

I have 17 in. wheels so the VR4 rotors will fit with no problems. If we can get the brackets fabricated, then that is the cheapest way to do a big brake kit for our cars.

With the brackets, you could use the 300zx or Skyline calipers and the VR4 rotors (which are cheaper than the OEM Skyline rotors). The total would be less than $800 if the parts were acquired on Ebay.

What do you think?

-sijoko

[Jeff Williams]

The guy on eBay says he has about 20 more brackets left.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...%3AIT

I think this would be a better alternative, even if you kept the floating calipers, from the Q45. Of course, the "NISSAN" calipers would look much better behind my ASA wheels.

[rsiwicki]

http://www.nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=102185

from a couple of weeks ago 3000 GT upgrade....sold for $147.50

Can I use my existing Q45 caliper with the 3000 GT bracket & 3000 GT rotor?

[sijoko]

rsi,

The bolt pattern (spacing) is the same between the Q, 300zx and Skyline calipers, as well as other Nissan vehicles.

The only concern would be the rotor size between the Q and the Z32. If they are the same or at the least very similiar, then the stock Q45 caliper will also work.

You could also pick up the 300zx calipers for around $125 apiece rebuilt, then sell your stock calipers to the 240sx crowd.

The best is to use the Skyline R32 calipers. They would run around $270 apiece.

Here's the website where you can order them:

http://www.nismoparts.com/catalog/?section=203

Even if you bought brand new R32 calipers for over $530, you could do the whole VR4 brake kit for around $1000.

The only expensive part is the bracket to relocate the calipers. One hundred and fifty dollars for 2 pieces of metal with 4 holes in them seems kind of steep. I know that we can get these made for a better price.

-sijoko

[SOCAL91Q45a]

Sorry to be so thick ... Im confused between the RS34 RS32 and 3000 GT rotors? Whats the BEST combo - cost aside for the moment. I may bypass the bling wheels/audio for this for a couple months.

But could we break this down by part and price a little further? This is very very enticing.

1991 Q45 brake upgrade for $1,000 - sounds delicious.

4 Rotors ? Parts numbers / weblink / price?

4 Calipers ? Parts numbers / weblink / price?

Custom Mounting Brackets ? $150 ....

Brake Pad recommendations?

any other parts required / options available? braided brake lines? Connectors? Speed Bleeder valves?

[SOCAL91Q45a]

Will this work on the 1991 Q45 with the brackets?

http://www.ztuner.com/brakes.php

Where to buy the improved calipers that will work.

[AZhitman]

I can get the brackets replicated fairly cheaply. My lead fabricator went out on his own and has a CNC machine that cost more than my house and 3 cars combined.

Let me know if you guys get a set and I'll see what he'd want to replicate 'em.

BTW, better save some of that $$$ for tires. No one's "outstopping" anyone without some primo rubber.

Also, keep in mind that the rotating mass of those monster rotors is very similar to the effect of a +3 wheel upgrade. If you already have heavy wheels, you're really gonna be hurting, not just in acceleration - they also increase stopping distances.

Stopping distances may not decrease as much as you think, if at all.

Remember the benefit of the added mass really only comes into play for heat dissipation, such as when you're OVERWORKING the brakes, like you'd see on an autoX environment.

For day-to-day use, I simply can't see a better upgrade for the $$$ than the aluminum Z calipers and some good OEM slotted rotors (and the right tires).

I do some pretty spirited driving and have never experienced fade on my well-maintained stockers w/ Metal Masters (or the new Hawk HP's), SS lines and ATE SuperBlue.

[elwesso]

rsi,

The bolt pattern (spacing) is the same between the Q, 300zx and Skyline calipers, as well as other Nissan vehicles.

The only concern would be the rotor size between the Q and the Z32. If they are the same or at the least very similiar, then the stock Q45 caliper will also work.

You could also pick up the 300zx calipers for around $125 apiece rebuilt, then sell your stock calipers to the 240sx crowd.

The best is to use the Skyline R32 calipers. They would run around $270 apiece.

Here's the website where you can order them:

http://www.nismoparts.com/catalog/?section=203

Even if you bought brand new R32 calipers for over $530, you could do the whole VR4 brake kit for around $1000.

The only expensive part is the bracket to relocate the calipers. One hundred and fifty dollars for 2 pieces of metal with 4 holes in them seems kind of steep. I know that we can get these made for a better price.

-sijoko

Same rotor size but wont wrok since the Q calipers support a 28mm rotor as opposed to a 30mm rotor...

No way im paying a grand, but i have JDM hookups ..... I still dont really like the VR4 idea just because of the heat that the little adapter things have to withstand... Seems like a distaster if one of those little things bends or breaks......

What is the size of the VR2 rotors???

Sorry to be so thick ... Im confused between the RS34 RS32 and 3000 GT rotors? Whats the BEST combo - cost aside for the moment. I may bypass the bling wheels/audio for this for a couple months.

But could we break this down by part and price a little further? This is very very enticing.

1991 Q45 brake upgrade for $1,000 - sounds delicious.

4 Rotors ? Parts numbers / weblink / price?

4 Calipers ? Parts numbers / weblink / price?

Custom Mounting Brackets ? $150 ....

Brake Pad recommendations?

any other parts required / options available? braided brake lines? Connectors? Speed Bleeder valves?

This is what we're determining.. Whatever the case is the best deal is to use the Z32 rear brakes, since theyre easy to find and you dont want the rear brakes overpowering the fronts, but with any sort of upgrade the stock Q rear brakes arent even close to good enough.....

The Z32 guys like these pads called "greenstuffs".. I posted in the Z32 section and they said theyre very low dust and VERY bitey... Said HUGE improvement over OEM, and some said they liked them better than the hawk or axxis.....

Does anyone know about the difference in clamping force between the R32 and Z32 calipers??

I konw of a place that sells R34 Gtt calipers and rotors for $600, with resurfaced rotors... Seems hard to beat! I can get the R32 rotors and calipers for about 400 if i so decide.....

However greg brings a good point.. The rotating mass, something like adding 10 lbs is like adding 40 lbs of static weight..

Like i said earlier the VR4 thing seems to work on paper but Im still skeptical of it...

the bottom line is, i think the R32 calipers and rotors will give me the best for the price.....

[AZhitman]

Those VR4 rotors are flat-out MASSIVE, but they weigh a freakin' ton.

Seriously.

I bought a set off ebay for $75, with the intention of doing this swap. I came to my senses when I realized they weigh almost TWICE what a Q rotor weighs.

[elwesso]

Probably another added benefit of going with the R32 or R34

The hardware probably isnt going to be THAT much heavier, but i could be surprised... IM sure i can find some weights somewhere...

I wonder if dennis has any comments!

[AZhitman]

http://online.cctt.org/physics...m.asp

http://www.hotrodders.com/t46496.html

Also, the effect of the unsprung weight is apparently harder to determine, as the process for converting it to a "static weight" equivalent exceeds my meager "DCB" math skills.

Bottom line is, even if it means replacing rotors annually, I'd prefer to stick with the Z calipers and OEM rotors.

[elwesso]

You cant use OEM rotors (Q rotors) and Z rotors together an the Q45 rotors are a different width.....

that extra 2mm may help a little...

[AZhitman]

DOH! Right - I meant Z OEM.

[louiegz]

I don't claim to know much about brake upgrades, but if you don't mind, Ill throw in my two cents. I was once watching that show on Spike TV with those two hicks that do the mods to the mussle cars. They did a front brake upgrade to a Stang. I know I'm doing this from memory, and my facts might be off, but they spent well over a grand and they only gained less than 10 feet in better stopping distances. I didn't think that was good bang for the buck. That's just my opinion. Then you think of all that unsprung wheight you'll be adding to an already heavy car. Tha cant be good. I don't know what the stats are in upgrading Q brakes, but you should check it out to see if it's worth the expence. Check to see how many feet it takes away from a 70-0 stop. If you do upgrade, post some before and after numbers. The one good thing that would look nice is bigger rotors with big rims. Fill some of the space.

[911/Q45]

Bigger brakes aren't about shorter stopping distance on the first stop. The stock brakes are powerful enough to engage the ABS when they are cold. Bigger brakes have more heat sink for repeated stops, ala track use, which very few of us do. Secondary benefit is longer lasting rotors, as the increased "meat" resists warping and wear better. A tertiary plus is the bling factor if your wheels expose the brakes. The increased unsprung weight is a definite negative, especially if the rotating mass is significantly greater. This could actually increase your stopping distance!

[elwesso]

Does anyone know the weight difference between the R32 GT-R rotors and the Q or Z rotors?

[SOCAL91Q45a]

My past experience with this issue is from a rotor warpage factor ... if these beefier rotors prevent warpage significantly better than the oems - which my buddy and previous owner seems to have significant problems with - Im for it.

[elwesso]

I may be surprised but I bet that the skyline rotors wont add that much....

I got an email back from the R34 brake guy and he said that the R34 calipers use Z32 brake pads.....

Im kind of leaning toward this, with the greenstuffs pads...

[SOCAL91Q45a]

OK - so is there a brake combo upgrade KNOWN to work - since others referenced DONT?????

What 32 MM wide rotor works with a GOOD 4 piston caliper.

Whats the best KNOWN working system ... as a staring point, and then whats needed to make an even better one work ... if buying the brackets for $150 will get us all a better braking solution somehow -Im game ... if I an use the bracket on a proper brake system that will work.

[elwesso]

everything i listed is known to work.. i dont know about this 3000GT one, as im probably not interested in that...

If you want the 32mm, go with the R32 GT-R non Vspec... guarnteed to bolt on... The skyline brakes will bolt on using all the stock hardware and everything.....

This has been done.. If the skyline bolts to the Z32 and the Z32 brakes to the Q, then by the transitive property the skyline bolts to the Q.....

[Jeff Williams]

Wes, are you using the 300zx rear 2 piston calipers that have "NISSAN" on them, with the 90-96 300zx rear vented rotors? Do the e-brake drums match on the 300 and Q?

I am bidding on a set of calipers, and want t ogo ahead and get the rotors as well, but don't like buying stuff that does not fit or work.

Thanks for the info.

[SOCAL91Q45a]

If you want the 32mm, go with the R32 GT-R non Vspec... guarnteed to bolt on... The skyline brakes will bolt on using all the stock hardware and everything.....

Ok - point of reference ... "brakes" is a very imprecise term - especially for the feable minded such as myself.

Im clear on the rotors - R32 GT-R non VSpec. Are they cross drilled, ventiilated, grooved or any such business? Wheres a good place to attain said items?

Now ... 4 Piston Calipers is that part of the R32 -GT-R "kit" ...

I keep reading Skyline ... R34/R32/ GT-R / GTT blah blah blah .... Can we tighten this up for the LINGO impaired [aka : ME ]

Is there a Steel Braided line kit people recommend are stay with fresh stock hoses?

[SOCAL91Q45a]

why is this thread left to die an ugly death ...?

[Q45tech]

Someone with 30/32mm front rotors [kits], could you measure the thickness of the outer, air space, and inner rotor surfaces..........oem 90-96 Q are ~~9, then 10 of air, 9mm summing to 28mm.

The goal is to try to find thicker metal inner and outer surfaces......not necessarily more air space. Without xraying the rotor we cannot determine the count and shape of internal vent ribbs and conductivity to balance the heat load between surfaces.

[Q45tech]

Just like you measure the weight distribution of connecting rods - with two scales you could do the same with rotors and a simple jig.

Speaking of con rods till I find a suitable place to post this ...........http://www.autosteel.org/pdfs/...s.pdf

Brake balance testinghttp://www.hunter.com/pub/undercar/901701/

[elwesso]

Dennis i cant really measure them but heres a few pictures of the setup, you could probably guess....

THey look like they have a lot more air space and a little bit more metal...

[Q45tech]

And more space between center supporting vanes....that might not be good?...........weigh the two versions to the gram [accuracy] and we can develop a formula to determine the new rotor temperature effect. Improvement in a single stop temperature.

[elwesso]

Well also those are aftermarket rotors, so that may be different......

OEM may have the same design..... Im not sure, i will have to engage in further investigation... Hopefully I can find someone to compare this with, find someone with a brand new OEM R32 rotor.....



Those are R34 rotors, not really what we're interested in......

Dennis, if you dont mind could you step outside the theoretical and do you think that this upgrade will really be worth the money... THe way I see it, im spending about the same as i would on stock brake components,and if the rotors last 2x as long, thats almost worth it to me... However, the additional clamping force (yes?) that the Z or R32 calipers provide (2 vs 4 piston) and larger pad sweep area should make it a little better.....

Personally I think that if the extra mass cancells out the actual stopping distance, then we're left with increased life... Seems hard to go wrong.....

Im thinking that Ill try the Z32 rears and see how it goes..... I may be pleased enough to let it alone.....