What i want: 330-360whp on low boost ~400whp on high boost with the QUICKEST RESPONSE HUMANLY POSSIBLE. that is absolutley ESSIENTAL!!!! i honestly believe i wont ever need any more than 400whp for HPDE/drifting. I want to do this reliably but i have a budget. our season just started here in AZ and im gonna be really broke for the next 8 months haha.
Manifold: would like to use stock mani or HKS cast one.
Fuel managment: probably gonna be an AEM EMS but im open to suggestions
Injecotrs: not 100% decided but 650's are likley candidates.
this car sees some hellish abuse so i want to overbuild a bit. and FYI for those wondering my Mines ECU w/ N60 MAF will be for sale
SO: help me pick a turbo!
Post Title: Re: Help me pick a turbo! (Kamin)
Posted by: Kansei240sx at 1:38 PM 10/2/2006
Even though most people are against it, I'd go with a GT3071R Internally wastegated. You could get away with at most using a spacer and some longer studs on the stock manifold and save space. Plus you dont have to worry about fitting some rediculous External Wastegate contraption with the limited space we have being the steering column is in the way.
If you're crazy though, you could just put a holset turbo on and not lag horribly. My friends KA24DE with a holset turbo and a custom .68 a/r i think on his exhuast spools him at 3500 and on 12 psi is around 325-330 rwhp-ish
If you havent already PUT on a lightweight flywheel or lightened your drivetrain assembly in someway, that helps alot. EI, Aluminum Flywheel/Driveshaft/Halfshafts
RB25DET Camshafts are pretty effecient, but if need be, you could always go with tomei poncams for some gewd response.
Standalone wise, AEM i dont really trust, i've heard alot of people complain about it. The reason i dont trust AEM as much is becuase they do everything, you cant be good at everything as a company, i mean for gods sakes, from honda civic intakes to god knows what to RB EMS?
The Apexi Power FC is great to tune if you have the software for it and a laptop, that way you dont have to **** with the commander so much inputting a million values. Turbo XS NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH XS POWER i saw had a pretty cool standalone for the RB25DET that worked on thier car quite well.
650's sound like a good choice for injectors.
Something that most people dont think about as much is how the engine is stabilized. Engine Tq dampeners or stiffer mounts will also contribute to response, so keep that in mind as well.
Post Title:
Posted by: Sil240 at 1:59 PM 10/2/2006
and whats all these problems with aem? ive seen a few problems with some other people, but i saw them get worked out on the aem forums. but aem built a good standalone, then their division just adapts it to specific cars.
mines worked flawless, and havent really had a problem as of yet.
and joe, id still worry about that crank collar. do you wanna just run it and see how long it goes, then switch to the ls1 :o
but what we do to the cars on the track, the RBs are really not built for that abuse out of the box
Post Title: Re: (Sil240)
Posted by: Joe at 2:11 PM 10/2/2006
ive been looking at the internal gated GT3071 and like it. i really need to get off my *** and graph everything on a 3071 compressor map to see how efficent it would be but i have a feeling it should be right about perfect for both of those power numbers. what AR tho? .83?
cams would be something i would do when necessary i.e. during a rebuild. 400 seems to be the magic number for the rb25 without having to do some big internals so thats another reason im trying to stick to that number.
Post Title: Re: (krayton)
Posted by: Joe at 2:16 PM 10/2/2006
| Quote, originally posted by krayton » |
| since you dont wanna tear that engine apart, order that accusump now! and whats all these problems with aem? ive seen a few problems with some other people, but i saw them get worked out on the aem forums. but aem built a good standalone, then their division just adapts it to specific cars. mines worked flawless, and havent really had a problem as of yet.
but what we do to the cars on the track, the RBs are really not built for that abuse out of the box |
accusump will without a dobut go on with this setup.
i dont know about all those problems with the AEM. the only things i know of are a good precentage of them are bad out of the box, but they are all replaced for free by AEM.
i know the rb isnt built for the kind of abuse we throw at it bro but this is the way i see it
tuning, oil, water temps. if you can keep all 3 of those in check the engine will last practically forever. 400whp isnt really THAT much power. the accusump will take care of the oil for track use, Tony at UMS is probably gonna be tuning it, and as for water temps, well thats a crap shoot. stupid arizona (BTW new radiator/ducting worked alot better this weekend. it was way way better than last time it was 100 degrees air temps)
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 4:39 PM 10/2/2006
not to mention im an AEM dealer so i can get an EMS for way cheaper. paying retail is for suckas.
and im poor. this will be purchased a piece at a time
Post Title:
Posted by: eh? at 5:05 PM 10/2/2006
GCG is expensive but you won't have to change oil/water lines and get a new down pipe.
Aem... stay away. You don' t need it for only 400whp. As fas as being bad boxes? no they aren't bad. They're just pathetic at reading the nissan CAS. My problems aren't fixed and the other RB25 owner on the AEM board (Taffy on 240sx forums) just gave up on it.
Post Title: Re: (eh?)
Posted by: the_momo at 5:15 PM 10/2/2006
| Quote, originally posted by eh? » |
| High flowed stock turbo (ie australian gcg turbo) Power fc Z32 maf high flowed stock injectors (550cc) GCG is expensive but you won't have to change oil/water lines and get a new down pipe. |
1) 1900$?!?! are you insane?! i could get a GT30R, HKS cast Manifold and all lines and fittings for that price!!!
2) AEM may be overkill, but again, i get them for cheap. an EMS will cost me just a bit more than a power FC.
3) yes, 35% of aem units are bad out of the box. they have no way to test them from the manufacturer so they just send them out and replace them when they arent working. and i know about them having problems reading the nissan CAS, im talking about something else.
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: eh? at 5:35 PM 10/2/2006
recheck your currency. Yes it is still expensive.
Buy a used PFC, I sold mine last year for $400.
As for them AEM, so great you know of two issues with them, would you still want that headache? That thing stranded me 5 times and I've almost gotten into an accident twice.
And just so you know- Taff was the Test mule for the RB25 ems and even he couldn't get a fix from AEM..
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: Joe at 5:35 PM 10/2/2006
carl, if i switch to topfeed, thats the route ill go. i dont need no bling.
Post Title: Re: (eh?)
Posted by: Joe at 5:43 PM 10/2/2006
| Quote, originally posted by eh? » |
| Australian recheck your currency. Yes it is still expensive. |
still 1500$ US. plus shipping.
and krayton has an EMS he bought from my shop, and its worked flawlessly.
Post Title:
Posted by: StricNyne at 5:47 PM 10/2/2006
as for the turbo, christ i dont know. thats why this is so hard. there are so many options that will do what im asking for i just dont know which will do it the best.
as always, i appreciate everyone's input. even if i dont agree with your opinions i will take them into consideration.
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 8:45 PM 10/2/2006
good luck with your hunting. i found a t3/t04e BB setup for under 1000$, im thinking of going with that. should be good to 425whp.
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: the_momo at 8:55 PM 10/3/2006
do rb26 cams fit? seems like you could pick up a set of those on the cheap and make a decent improvment. or, cam gears. maybe i dunno. i say run methanol. super lean afr will give you the power you seek. and 1 dollar a gallon isnt bad. although thats for large quantities.
im curious how the aem works out. keep us posted. i think im still using megasquirt. maybe. we'll see
Post Title: Re: (Carl H)
Posted by: RB20DETodd at 10:45 PM 10/3/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Carl H » |
| hks gt-rs turbo, 550-600cc injectors and power fc. done. iirc nengun is offering a complete upgrade package which has the above for about 3k, killer deal if you ask me. the gt-rs will offer the response you want as well as the power you want... http://www.nengun.com/catalogue/product/26 |
nice site carl!! thanks
Post Title: Re: (the_momo)
Posted by: Joe at 12:41 AM 10/4/2006
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| ha i like your logic. im mega budget man. i make most of my crap if i can. if i were to buy onely one thing expensive, it would be a set of cams. more only to just say...i have hks cams. im know. lame. oh well. do rb26 cams fit? seems like you could pick up a set of those on the cheap and make a decent improvment. or, cam gears. maybe i dunno. i say run methanol. super lean afr will give you the power you seek. and 1 dollar a gallon isnt bad. although thats for large quantities. im curious how the aem works out. keep us posted. i think im still using megasquirt. maybe. we'll see |
all of this needs to be on 91 octane.
id rather make 325whp on 91 than 365 on 105 and save myself 75$ a weekend in race gas
Post Title:
Posted by: gawdzilla at 7:27 AM 10/4/2006
i ran 550's and made 400 and some change rwhp... with duty cycles in the low 90s.. granted i was fairly rich, the duty cycle was a good deal higher than i anticipated which makes me think the fuel system is maxing out. most ppl say on the S chassis the max you can safely run w/ the system is 700cc on an SR. 700x4 = 2800cc. 550x6 is 3300cc already... just something to think about.
650 x 6 is a big injector that you can't "fully utilize" with the stock system IMO. i think even 550 is pushing it.. i think mid 300 wheel is a safe number to aim for, and they can be obtained with 550cc's.
with budget in mind i'd keep the stock mani and run a pfc with a z32 maf, maybe even safc if you want to save another few hundo. safc will still work fine for the occassional 400 wheel dyno pull imo.
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 7:38 AM 10/4/2006
and i actually got a turbo. one of my good friends has a RB25 direct replacment IHI turbo good to 500hp lying around he is hooking me up with.
Post Title:
Posted by: gawdzilla at 12:26 PM 10/4/2006
its tough to find hard statistics b/c most poeple plop in the walbro and call it a day, staying under 350 wheel.
i tried checking the SAU forums for the bigger hp guys, and most people run a sump w/ the single or dual bosch 044's, of course with braided lines.
Modified by gawdzilla at 12:55 PM 10/4/2006
Post Title:
Posted by: rbsileighty at 3:51 PM 10/4/2006
Here's the stats on fuel pumps... posted this a few times before:
http://www.stealth316.com/2-fuelpumpguide.htm
As for a turbo... on pump gas (key point) you are going to need something big enough not to need a lot of boost since you're running a 9:1 CR and still make that power
Tial is not a fan of the 3071 internal gate setup... the owner showed me the inside and it ruins a good turbo to make it work.... that is the same turbo I use to want on my 20.
I'd say for what you're looking for GT35R... there is something to be said about matching turbine and compressor wheels. The old truck compressor on a pinwheel turbine idea is for the old T-series logic and not worth the time.
Look out for turbine housing materials as well... iron housings will scale after long exposure to high heat (ie track days). You get what you pay for in a turbo...
One idea is to run a big 16G or a 20G... but you're going to have issues with the manifold unless you go aftermarket... which if you do you might as well go GT series BB.
For the displacement you have... I'd say GT35R with a proper exhaust mani will be your friend on pump gas... with room to grow when you find a 110 pump at a station 
Modified by rbsileighty at 7:18 PM 10/4/2006
Post Title: Re: (rbsileighty)
Posted by: rbosacco at 6:25 PM 10/5/2006
| Quote, originally posted by rbsileighty » |
| I'd say GT35R with a proper exhaust mani will be your friend on pump gas... with room to grow when you find a 110 pump at a station |
the most intelligent idea on here yet. if you are serious about wanting your car to be competitive you cannot go internal gate. they suck. PERIOD. buy a nice external gate. also, aem is the best thing you can do to the electronics on your car. my stock s1 rb25 made 307hp and 323tq last night at 10.5 psi, which was all the stock gate would hold.
if you want your car to be well built with room to turn it up in the future...,
you should do a
full race manifold
gt35r
880cc injectors
aem ems and convert the car to speed density with the aem
it will be exactly what you described and if you get a real aem trained shop to tune the car you will be amazed with how much more drivable the car will be after it is speed density on aem. do it you wont be disappointed...
i run the 3.5bar map and their ait. its worth it. my car is a blast, and stock with a front mount and exhaust.
AEM
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 8:07 PM 10/5/2006
their **** is amazing but im not paying 1500$ for a manifold. and a GT35r is too big for road course use. i dont need 500whp.
p.s. the power fc can run speed density too if im not mistaken.
Post Title:
Posted by: eh? at 8:50 AM 10/6/2006
RB25 PFC doesn't run map, there is no d-jetro version. The only other version was the "pro" which had soft rpm cut and basic two step.
Post Title: Re: (eh?)
Posted by: Joe at 8:55 AM 10/6/2006
but full race has approached a couple RB owners in AZ to prototype a manifold for parts and labor. about $1500. hehe
never the less its way too god damnded expensive and ill sacrifice a couple hundred rpm spool time and 2% HP drop using my stock manifold.
same goes with internal wastegate. it works fine. may not be the most efficent but its gonna be an assload cheaper.
Post Title:
Posted by: eh? at 9:01 AM 10/6/2006
so probably never.
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: rbosacco at 11:28 AM 10/8/2006
well if you wanted cheap you should have bought an sr20, and if you dont even want to spend enough money to go external gate then whats the point in any of this. your gonna just buy whatevers cheap. so... what upgrades are on your car and what power does it lay out. i know that my car isn't a godsend or anything like that but for a quick tune and how much driveability i gained over the maf i wont ever go back. if you want a cheap manifold buy a 100dollar ebay t3 tubular one and brace it so it wont crack and buy a decent turbo. spend money on a good engine management or just deal with an afc or power fc. end result is that its your decision and no one is gonna change your mind, so what was the point of this topic anyway if you already know what you want to do....
Post Title: Re: (rbosacco)
Posted by: krayton at 11:30 AM 10/8/2006
| Quote, originally posted by rbosacco » |
| well if you wanted cheap you should have bought an sr20 |
OH SNAP SON!
you just got served 
Post Title: Re: (rbosacco)
Posted by: Joe at 11:51 AM 10/8/2006
| Quote, originally posted by rbosacco » |
| Howard over at AR FAB setup and tuned my ems in my 240, I have a stock s1 rb25det swap and a front mount. The car runs amazing. the stock gate wont hold anymore than 10.5 lbs after 5500 and the car still made really good numbers! Diveability is so much better now that the car is speed density. I think i need new tires now.... well if you wanted cheap you should have bought an sr20, and if you dont even want to spend enough money to go external gate then whats the point in any of this. your gonna just buy whatevers cheap. so... what upgrades are on your car and what power does it lay out. i know that my car isn't a godsend or anything like that but for a quick tune and how much driveability i gained over the maf i wont ever go back. if you want a cheap manifold buy a 100dollar ebay t3 tubular one and brace it so it wont crack and buy a decent turbo. spend money on a good engine management or just deal with an afc or power fc. end result is that its your decision and no one is gonna change your mind, so what was the point of this topic anyway if you already know what you want to do.... |
listen up jackass
I may be doing this on a budget, but dont talk down to me. there is a BIG difference between doing something ON A BUDGET and doing it to be CHEAP. I dont have to have the biggest and the best because to be blunt, I dont NEED the biggest and the best. If the internal gate on my IHI turbo is maxed at 450whp, GREAT! ill never reach it.
1) the 100$ ebay manifolds DONT EVEN FIT. so bracing them is the least of the problems
2) for the relativley low power goals i have there is no need to go to a tube manifold/external gate. I'm not trying to squeeze every single horsepower out of the car. i have a goal, im going to reach it.
3) im not spending the money on an external gate because im in the middle of a racing points series here in arizona where the last weekend at the track i spent 700$ between tires, entry fees and travel. my next event is in 2 weeks so i have to do it again. If i want to finish this before the season ends and let me be competetive with the top guys (I'm tied for 3rd, the other people above me are all 330whp+) i cant have this project take me 8 months to complete because i spent 2000$ on a tube manifold or it took full race 3 weeks to add an external wastegate to my stock manifold.
4) i made this thread for suggesions. while yours are ignorant, i will still listen to them. I have no first hand experience doing an upgraded turbo on a RB25 for what i do, so i ask my community for suggestions.
dont be a prick.
Post Title: Re: (krayton)
Posted by: Yellow4g63 at 1:54 PM 10/8/2006
| Quote, originally posted by krayton » |
|
you just got served |
LOL you got served hahahaha 
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: rbosacco at 4:30 PM 10/8/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Kamin » |
listen up jackass I have no first hand experience dont be a prick. |
i made a good suggestion, just remember you said
| Quote, originally posted by Kamin » |
I have no first hand experience. |
let me reitterate my point. budget setup that will get me 400whp.
let me reitterate what you told me. "stop being a cheapass you should have gone sr20" maybe in your twisted mind thats helpfull, but i took that as an attack because im trying to do things on a limited budget because this is the beginning of my racing season.
the reason i made this thread was for input from other members for a well rounded budget 400whp setup. you obviously cant see what im going for, so just stop giving me your "advice".
p.s. way to take 3 sentences out of context.
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: the_momo at 7:24 PM 10/8/2006
i bet you have a really incredibly enormous...ego.
kamin, forget dumb people. youre a mod. everyone is a big man on the keyboard. im sure itll all work out for the best, and good luck with what direction you decide to pursue.
there is a thing i always tell people about any of the cars ive ever built.
"rarely does a 300whp 2800lb car feel slow" the more responsive car is always faster.
really people, if you want to give advice when its asked, give it. if not, GTFO
just a waste of time. and dont be offended when someone with 18 posts gets beat down by someone with 3000 plus. i bet more people are going to side with the one they know.
Post Title: Re: (the_momo)
Posted by: RB20DETodd at 10:54 AM 10/9/2006
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| formula for the fastest motor out there |
money=whp?
Post Title:
Posted by: goofynick6 at 11:43 AM 10/9/2006
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| i think what the dude was saying is that he has the formula for the fastest motor out there, and we all should bow at his feet. |
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| i bet you have a really incredibly enormous...ego. kamin, forget dumb people. youre a mod. everyone is a big man on the keyboard. im sure itll all work out for the best, and good luck with what direction you decide to pursue. |
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| there is a thing i always tell people about any of the cars ive ever built. "rarely does a 300whp 2800lb car feel slow" the more responsive car is always faster. |
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| really people, if you want to give advice when its asked, give it. if not, GTFO just a waste of time. and dont be offended when someone with 18 posts gets beat down by someone with 3000 plus. i bet more people are going to side with the one they know. |
i didn't get beat down i just stopped checking this thread because i thought originally, that it would be open to ideas, not that he just wanted approval on what was already in his mind, and there is nothing wrong with that, if that is how he wants to do his car, by all means do it. a smaller turbo at 18-20 lbs might be ok on pump, or, if you run fuel all of the time anyway then i guess its a non issue. you will probably meet your power goal that way, a buddy of mine has a gts-4 corrado with a 2liter 20 valve hybrid motor and he runs a garrett gt30r on it, he has to run race fuel to run above 20psi and at 15 the car only lays down 325 to the wheels. i know that with the extra displacement of the engine in my 240 a 35r would spool the same as the 30r does on his 2 liter car and i could more than likely pull 400 off on pump with ease and that is what i want for my car. i understand if my opinions arent welcome here because i dont have as many posts as you guys but i just chalk my lack of posts up to the fact that most of my time is spent in my shop after work or driving one of my cars. i dont have a job where i can be on the net during the day... sorry... my post count will always be down...
Post Title: Re: (rbosacco)
Posted by: the_momo at 7:46 PM 10/12/2006
my direction, responsive 300whp and then learn to drive. i think that is something that everyone here could benifit from. next spring if i can swing it i am going to try to get some driving lessons. then more track time.
i think that really there is going to be something compromised no matter what you decide to go with. if there were a perfect setup, everyone would be using it. the less stressed parts are, the longer they last, and imho, that would be number one on my list. best of luck. and kamin, if you end up trying a dozen different turbos, be sure to pass the love on down to some fellow rb owners... . im personally looking at a bb garrett 30 series. so many different choices.
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 9:07 PM 10/12/2006
-Bluefire
Post Title: Re: (Bluefire)
Posted by: Joe at 11:26 PM 10/12/2006
-Bluefire
Post Title: Re: (Bluefire)
Posted by: Joe at 8:45 AM 10/13/2006
fuel - walboro 255lph, Nismo FPR
Cooling - Koyo, 2 12" perma cool fans, some custom ducting and blocking plates
Drivetrain - RPS MAX clutch (sprung 6 puck), Kaaz 1.5way differential
Post Title: Re: (Carl H)
Posted by: Spazz at 1:29 AM 10/15/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Carl H » |
| gt30r ftw, as goofynick said... .63ar and that thing will be uber responsive on a 25. and for one thing if the motor is cranking out 325whp at 15psi but if you cant tune it to run 20 on pump then something is wrong there... at 18psi i was WELL within knock limits and egt's looked good, that being said i still will install this aquamist system i have to keep temps down on long pulls. |
+1 for the gt30r and +1 for the aem ems.
Post Title: Re: (Spazz)
Posted by: 300Plus at 7:02 PM 10/15/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Carl H » |
| seriously the aem is REALLY overrated... the pfc works really well, all the aem does is give you the ability to eff up the motor a hell of a lot faster. |
| Quote, originally posted by Spazz » |
the pfc or aem ems will work for your powergoals, no doubt about that. The pfc will leave you some gas money to get home with |
the AEM price means nothing for me, I am an AEM dealer at work.
the PFC and AEM will cost about the same.
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: 300Plus at 9:09 AM 10/16/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Kamin » |
the AEM price means nothing for me, I am an AEM dealer at work. the PFC and AEM will cost about the same. |
OK well that settles that, you buy both give me the other, we both test them and see which works better.... I see no flaw in that plan lol.
Is the EMS plug and play for the rb20 and 25?
Post Title: Re: (300Plus)
Posted by: eh? at 9:13 AM 10/16/2006
| Quote, originally posted by 300Plus » |
OK well that settles that, you buy both give me the other, we both test them and see which works better.... I see no flaw in that plan lol. Is the EMS plug and play for the rb20 and 25? |
No you need a laptop to upload the maps base for each.
Post Title: Re: (eh?)
Posted by: Joe at 9:16 AM 10/16/2006
he is probably asking if its a plug and play replacement for the factory computer (no wiring), if so, yes. it plugs into the stock harness with no wiring modification unless you change to a MAP sensor.
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 11:15 AM 10/16/2006
MAF sensors are gay.
and yea, i wouldnt event consider the EMS if i had to pay somewhere near retail. i dont NEED that much adjustability for only 400hp lol
Post Title:
Posted by: Carl H at 3:37 PM 10/16/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Kamin » |
and yea, i wouldnt event consider the EMS if i had to pay somewhere near retail. i dont NEED that much adjustability for only 400hp lol |
any chance we could work something out for an ems that cheap?
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: eh? at 7:40 AM 10/17/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Kamin » |
| you can connect the EMS to your house PC and upload the basemap if you have to he is probably asking if its a plug and play replacement for the factory computer (no wiring), if so, yes. it plugs into the stock harness with no wiring modification unless you change to a MAP sensor. |
You're ghetto if you do that... lol
Anyway you still need to set base timing and calibrate the TPS with the aem. I guess you could lug the whole computer outside if you needed to...
The PFC is truely PNP the aem is almost PNP.
Post Title: Re: (Spazz)
Posted by: Joe at 9:11 AM 10/17/2006
| Quote, originally posted by Spazz » |
any chance we could work something out for an ems that cheap? |
| Quote, originally posted by the_momo » |
| so did you end up with a setup? just curious. any work with the ems yet? |
since its the week before SEMA i havent spent a dime haha, im not in a hurry for this upgrade lol
but i might be going an entirely different direction that would involve removal of the RB all together and something else going in 
Post Title: Re: (Kamin)
Posted by: the_momo at 9:22 PM 10/21/2006
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