Staggered Wheels on the M35x (awd) model

[m35squadron]

I was wondering if anyone has installed staggered wheels on there M35x model?? And if so have they had any problems with the diff's?

[jankenpo30]

I was wondering if anyone has installed staggered wheels on there M35x model?? And if so have they had any problems with the diff's?

From everything I've ever seen posted...the story is you can't on an AWD.

[M4T5]

Unless the front and rear tires have exactly the same rolling diameter, this cannot be down. With a staggard set-up, I seriously doubt you will find the front narrower tires and the wider rear tires to match up in rolling diameter.

In short.......forget about it or sell the M35X for a RWD M35.

J

[m35squadron]

Yeah, that sucks, Axis wheel use to make a wheel that was the same width but designed the wheel so that it looked as though they where staggered. But they stopped making them. I wonder if there is another wheel company that make them this way?

[lawman12]

it can be done, and has been done.

choices are limited, but you can stagger on the x... just need to make sure you get the right specs and/or proper offsets....

this is done on the lex, infiniti, bentley, audis.....
Modified by lawman12 at 2:23 AM 2/12/2009

[DashingMax]

Yes, anything is possible. Do you really want to risk breaking your differential?

[lawman12]

Yes, anything is possible. Do you really want to risk breaking your differential?

I am curious as to the basis for your opinion. Do you have personal experience with an AWD car with proper spec'ed staggered wheels that caused any problems with the car?

This factual based information would be useful to have especially when there are so many wheel companies making/selling "proper" wheels for AWD cars that have not resulted in any problems.

I personally have never heard of the problems when the proper wheels are used, but I am curious to get your thoughts. thanks

[rgb129]

You could disable the AWD for the summer and run staggered any way you want. You could then use the stock wheels/winter tires with the AWD fuse in.

Does anyone know where the fuse is? There seems to be a plug in the compartment where the battery is, but the documentation is limited.

Anyway, just a thought if you are really wanting to go staggered.

[lawman12]

You CAN stagger and use AWD....

[rgb129]

You CAN stagger and use AWD....

I know, but if one wants to avoid any risk or the hassle of matching the diameter, this would be another option...

Just another option is all.

[szh]

Folks, please DO NOT stagger the wheels on a Nissan/Infiniti ATTESA system. Doing staggered wheels will almost guarantee that the front and rear rolling diameters will be different. You simply cannot get close enough with tire selections to reduce the difference to where the the system will not be unhappy and increase the aging and wear on the system - if the difference is high enough, you will damage the AWD system.

The bottom line: stick with the stock wheels (at 18", they are not that bad, guys!) or replace all four wheels with the same identical wheel ... including identical tires. Check your tire pressure for uniformity often as well.

Z

[lawman12]

Folks, please DO NOT stagger the wheels on a Nissan/Infiniti ATTESA system. Doing staggered wheels will almost guarantee that the front and rear rolling diameters will be different. You simply cannot get close enough with tire selections to reduce the difference to where the the system will not be unhappy and increase the aging and wear on the system - if the difference is high enough, you will damage the AWD system.

The bottom line: stick with the stock wheels (at 18", they are not that bad, guys!) or replace all four wheels with the same identical wheel ... including identical tires. Check your tire pressure for uniformity often as well.

Z

again, I would love to know the factual basis for these opinions... I think it would be great information for the Mx owners to have this info if based on true factual experience that proper staggered wheels have damaged the infiniti AWD system.

I know a few Mx owers who have staggered wheels and have no problems. I also know vendors who sell staggered wheels to other AWD cars such as the lexus, audi, bently etc...

I can totally understand the caution to Mx owners to make sure you get professional help with the proper staggered wheels, however I find it a little too much to say stagger "can't work" or "do not' stagger.

My small point is that a stagger can be done on a Mx as long as you get the proper offsets and specs.

buy some off the shelf crap and yeah, you probably going to have problems...

but the OP asked, and I just wanted to provide the info that it can be done, has been done on the Mx - as long as it is done right!

[lawman12]

I know, but if one wants to avoid any risk or the hassle of matching the diameter, this would be another option...

Just another option is all.

gotcha....

[rgb129]

Folks, please DO NOT stagger the wheels on a Nissan/Infiniti ATTESA system. Doing staggered wheels will almost guarantee that the front and rear rolling diameters will be different. You simply cannot get close enough with tire selections to reduce the difference to where the the system will not be unhappy and increase the aging and wear on the system - if the difference is high enough, you will damage the AWD system.

The bottom line: stick with the stock wheels (at 18", they are not that bad, guys!) or replace all four wheels with the same identical wheel ... including identical tires. Check your tire pressure for uniformity often as well.

Z

Actually, I have seen this done often enough with the Lexus AWD and the Audi Quattro. You can actually get within .013 of an inch in one case I have seen. You can't argue that little of a difference with affect the ATTESA...you can get more than that with a small difference in tire pressures.

Now, I personally won't be staggering my wheels, but that doesn't mean someone else can't...

[SteveTheTech]

As i was reading this thread I was waiting for a voice of reason Z to the rescue.

Seriously guys the software will stop working as designed and more likely than not set a code when it detects wheel size variance of ~4+mm. The computer calculated wheel speed to the 0.01 of an MPH and tolerance parameters for operation are marginal.

Pulling a fuse or disabling the AWD system is not a viable option. One of the things about Infinitis late models CAN systems is that if a fault is detected within ANY drivetrain component all the systems will be effected. Depending on the priority level of the code (it may start with a wheel speed variance, then it will progress to a transfer case over temp, then lack of response codes once component damage has occurred) various systems will react in accordance to keep the car moving, at least to the nearest dealer.

Staggered may be possible but it is strongly advised against. Replacing the wheels is not out of the questions just do your homework and keep in mind if the dealer feels like it they may hassle you with any driveline related concerns (vibration,pull,noise,poor ride comfort,inaccurate speedometer and ICC operation) and they may not.

Good Luck with your decision. Keep in mind some of the other threads on here about Ms leading on the highway, remember the suspension is pretty tight and very unforgiving. Some of them look pretty good though.

[M4T5]

I just want to add something I thought about. If you do use staggard wheels, use the same size tire on all four corners.Not sure what size tire will look good and fit well that way, but it is only a suggestion. Probably a good one to follow. I'm glad Steve spoke up on this issue. I too could not believe some of the comments stated above....more the one about pulling the fuse than any of the others...........The AWD drive train requires a matched set of rolling diameter size tires....no ifs, ands, or buts! It is even recommended to replace the tires if the fronts and rears are so many 32's of an in. in tread depth differences. At least I thought I read this somewhere......

Take care of your car guys!

J

[szh]

You can actually get within .013 of an inch in one case I have seen. You can't argue that little of a difference with affect the ATTESA...you can get more than that with a small difference in tire pressures.

It is not that simple. Simple calculations of the tire diameter from the tire size (as is commonly done using many simplistic calculators on the Internet) is not good enough a method to work in this situation. The ATTESA system is different from the other car mftr AWD systems, by the way, and is sensitive to these issues.

Quite often, the "exact same tire size" from two different vendors will have different effective diameters under pressure and under load and at speed - that is what I mean by rolling diameter. You can see this from the tire charts I have in the stickies (shown under "revs/mile" because that is a better measure of this concept!) This is because of the sidewall design differences, the profile differences, the load index rating, tread depth, etc., etc., etc.

If you pick tires - front and back - that have different revs/mile even for the same tire size from two different vendors, or two different tire sizes from the same vendor, then the ATTESA system will be compensating for this continuously. Depending on the degree of difference, this will age/degrade the system over time, or may even damage it.

With staggered tires, the sidewalls will flex differently, and the tires will expand/contract differently at speed. Hence, the rolling diameter difference even if you could get it exact when stopped will change as you drive. This will depend, of course, on the variance between the front and back tire sizes, the wheel diameter, the load index, etc. and cannot be predicted in the slightest!

So, again, you probably cannot keep these differences - front to back - from being a larger (or certainly a more unpredictable) effect than simple tire pressure differences. BTW, If I had the AWD M35X or M45X, I would check and match tire pressures every week, and rotate the tires front to back every 3000 miles or maybe, even less - without fail!

The bottom line: You really need to use the identical wheels on all four corners and the identical tires on all four wheels. That is, if you want the system to be reliable and not give you problems in the long run!

Note that I am not saying that you have to stick with the OEM wheels - I just happen to like them so would not want to change if I had the M35X or M45X! Please feel free to buy whatever you want ... whether it is 19" or 20" or 22" ... as long as you buy four identical ones at a time! And make sure that the effective rolling diameter is near the OEM 245/45-18 values - this is tougher to do when using much larger wheels, of course.

Z

[szh]

If you do use staggard wheels, use the same size tire on all four corners. Not sure what size tire will look good and fit well that way, but it is only a suggestion. Probably a good one to follow.

Perhaps a good one to follow, but pointless to stagger the wheel then!

Also, when you mount a given tire on different width wheels, the actual profile of the tire changes - there is an optimum wheel width range for each given tire size. This "stretching" change affects the effective tread width at a fixed pressure, the section width, the section profile, etc., of the tire!

I don't know to what degree this might affect the ATTESA system, but why bother with this risk if the tires are identical? Just get identical wheels too!

Z

[szh]

From Page TF-11 of the Service Manual (see the M Service Manuals here at NICO):

DESCRIPTION

• Electronic control allows optimal distribution of torque to front/rear wheels to match road conditions.

• Makes possible stable driving, with no wheel spin, on snowy roads or other slippery surfaces.

• On roads which do not require AWD, it contributes to improved fuel economy by driving in conditions close to rear-wheel drive.

• Sensor inputs determine the vehicle's turning condition, and in response tight cornering/braking are controlled by distributing optimum torque to front wheels.

NOTE:• When driving, if there is a large difference between front and rear wheel speed which continues for a long time, fluid temperature of drive system parts becomes too high and AWD warning lamp flashes rapidly. (When AWD warning lamp flashes, vehicle changes to rear-wheel drive conditions.) Also, optional distribution of torque sometimes becomes rigid before lamp flashes rapidly, but it is not malfunction.

• If AWD warning lamp is flashing rapidly, stop vehicle and allow it to idle for some time. Flashing will stop and AWD system will be restored.

• When driving, AWD warning lamp may flash slowly if there is a significant difference in diameter of the tires. At this time, vehicle performance is not fully available and cautious driving is required. (Continues until engine is turned OFF.)

• If the warning lamp flashes slowly during driving but remains OFF after engine is restarted, the system is normal. If it again flashes slowly after driving for some time, vehicle must be inspected.

• When the difference of revolution speed between the front and rear wheel the shift occasionally changes to direct 4-wheel driving conditions automatically. This is not malfunction.

Remember that the ATTESA system is not a continuous all-wheel drive system ... it transfers torque as it detects speeds differences. This system can get quite erroneous results (switching in and out the electric coupler between the front and rear axles when not warranted) when the speed differences are caused by factors other than what is supposed to be.

Z

[szh]

From the 2008 M35/45 Owner's Manual - page 8-41:

All-Wheel Drive (AWD) models

CAUTION

Always use tires of the same type, size, brand, construction (bias, bias-belted or radial), and tread pattern on all four wheels. Failure to do so may result in a circumference difference between tires on the front and rear axles which will cause excessive tire wear and may damage the transmission, transfer case and differential gears.

ONLY use spare tires specified for the AWD model.

If excessive tire wear is found, it is recommended that all four tires be replaced with tires of the same size, brand, construction and treadpattern. The tire pressure and wheel alignment should also be checked and corrected as necessary. Contact an INFINITI dealer.

Z

[m35squadron]

Thanks everyone for your info!!!

[Phantom Infiniti]

I understand you cannot run a staggared wheel set up, but what if u just bought 4 of the same wheel. Say the 08 g37 coupe wheels. Just buy 4 front rims. Would that work (problem free) on an 06 m35x?
Thanks

[SteveTheTech]

I understand you cannot run a staggared wheel set up, but what if u just bought 4 of the same wheel. Say the 08 g37 coupe wheels. Just buy 4 front rims. Would that work (problem free) on an 06 m35x?
Thanks

I would not think that would cause a problem.

You might want to think about finding a set of rears. The stock G37S runs 245s in the rear which is what the M with 19s has. You will need a full set of new lug nuts from the G37.

If you replace them with those wheels they fit the Big Brake Kit reaaaalllllyyyyy well.

[mexillis]

Maybe you have the answer ^STT why do the front's of G37s have a 225 on them with an 8.5" rim and with the M45 19"s they run a 245 on the 8.5? Phantom...If you can find just the fronts or just the rears why not get the rears and put on 255 since they are 9"s wide.

[Phantom Infiniti]

"Phantom...If you can find just the fronts or just the rears why not get the rears and put on 255 since they are 9"s wide.

Well i figured id go with the same width of 8.5 to avoid rubbing. But i dont even know if there will be rubbing. Will there? Haha
And im not going to be upgrading the brakes so i dnt need to worry about clearing the Big Break calipers

[SteveTheTech]

I would love to assume there is some great magic race inspired reason for the wheel width differences but it could be supply it could be money it could be curb weight distribution. The suspension geometry is different in both cars but, I really have no idea what their logic for anything is.

I've seen people with FI V35s run 265s on the stock Sport 18s as long as you keep the sidewall relative you should be good to go.

[bbs350z]

as far as im concerned i see no real reason to run a staggered setup on an awd car. your front diff spiffs at one speed, the rear at another, what good is that gonna do? trade in for a rwd if your willing to put your drivetrain at risk for a set of wheels

[solo413]

thanks for all this great info! I have a maxima with 18's same exact size as my m35x oem rims, do u think if i put my aftermarkets on the m35x it would work as the factorys, and then put the staggered on my maxima(dont really want to put staggered on my maxima)?
I cant use the factory m35x rims no more 2 of them have bends in and do not hold air in them properly.

[a.blanco0905]

Ok, so supposedly the bottom line is do not put staggered wheels on all wheel drive system... I used to drive an Audi TT Quattro and have some friends in the Audi world who ran staggered set ups in Quattros (Haldex) and who are very knowledgeable about cars as well -only reason I'm butting in here is because Eddie wants a set of the G37s 19" wheels and they only come staggered- I called him and told him what you guys were saying and he says it's true to an extent: He says that as long as the wheels have the same diameter it will not hurt neither the diffs or the AWD system... i.e. do not put a 20" wheel in the rear and 19" in the front on any AWD system but you can have 20" in the rear and in the front even if they're not the same width.

[solo413]

i just took my staggered rims off today!!! i had them on for 2 days and they had the awd light blinking like krazy, slip and vdc off lights too. the ride was nice though. but not worth hurting my M!

i strongly suggest not putting staggered rims on the m35x/m45x! even if the tires are the exact same and they are made for ur car. its just not a good fit for these cars.