Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus

Post by **krayton** » Wed Jul 12, 2006 6:09 pm

Digging through a bunch of archives and not finding too much.

Im rebuilding my RB25 series I and have an end goal of 500-600.

to clarify what are these oil pump issues everyone comes too? is the stock oil pump not good enough?

Im talking with takamotorsports about a N1 oil pump with a JUN collar. what is invloved with installing the collars. if i understood it clearly, the n1 pump can end up throwing too much oil to the head???

Just getting all confused with the info im reading, need some experts to set me straight here.

basically looking for advice on what i should be doing with my oil pump situation. the engine will be seeing plenty abuse at redline.

Post by **Darius** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:20 am

None of what I am about to say is personal experience but it is what I have researched through other threads and boards.

The existing crank needs to be machined to accept the new crank collar. Then, the collar is heated up til hot and slid over the newly machined part of the crank, aligned with the existing flank on the shaft, and secured with a set screw. There is a heated debate and Jon Powell insists that welding the material on the crank necessary to effectively extend the oil drive flank would cause the crank to warp. He strongly recommends the crank collar, but crank welding has been done for ages...FWIW I'm going with the collar.

As far as too much oil in the head, I have seen a couple of threads on skylinesaustrailia (and repeated here on NICO) discussing how to plug or reduce the oil passages for the RB25. I'm not sure if these people were running the N1 or OEM pump, but I'm considering the OEM pump since my lubrication system is not changing (i.e. oil cooler, filter relocation etc.). Plus since I'm planning on revving higher than stock, an N1 might be overkill with pressure and flow...someone please advise me on this. I think the problem people were having with too much oil in the head was that it was getting into their intake piping through the valve covers and reducing fuel octane and thus affecting engine performance. I'm planning on running a catch can, so that will solve that part of the problem. I can't imagine that there is enough oil in the head to empty the sump or cause problems with the cams/lifters?? The head drains in the rear seem to be fairly large.Please correct me if I'm wrong there.

You probably have seen this thread before zerothread?id=182608

Post by **98birdls1** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:36 am

I'm pretty sure the N1 oil pumps do not flow any more oil than the stock pump does, not enough to be significant anyways. At least I haven't seen any info to the contrary. The benefit of the N1 pump is a stiffer spring which gives you better oil pressure.

With that being said Darius is correct about the crank collar. Early R33 RB25's need modification to the oil drive snout on the crank. Just a pump upgrade is not enough. I am going with the Jun collar as well.

For the too much oil in the head thing. The problem isn't too much oil in the head. Its not enough oil in the pan. The oil pump (even OEM) is sufficent enough to drain the pan before the oil can flow through the head/block and back into the pan. The point of putting restrictors in the block is to even the flow out so there is enough oil in the head and enough oil kept in the pan. That link has very good info.

Now, too much oil in the head can cause problems like overfilling the catchcan and blowing past the pvc system into the intake. But thats nothing compared to spinning a rod.

As a caution, these problems mainly arise with more than stock horsepower and constant high-revs. If you have a stock motor and barely get past 6000rpms, this stuff probably isn't necessary. But I'd reccommend it to anyone who was planning a motor rebuild for big power.

If you're shooting for 400-600hp: crank collar, upgraded oil pump, oil restrictors, oil cooler, and maybe somebetter baffling should ALL be used to keep your motor healthy.

Another caution. I do not yet own an installed RB. This is all info I have gathered while I rebuild my RB. So take it with a grain of salt.

Luke

Post by **Reignman** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:14 am

If you are planning to push anything over 400hp I would recommend the extended crank collar. Here is an idea of what over 500hp can do to the oil pump.

Post by **krayton** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:19 am

^saw that guy digging through archives.

thats what got me worried a bit.

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:09 pm

n1 pump moves the same ammount of oil as a rb26 pump which moves more oil than a rb25 pump or a rb20 pump.the main diffrence is that it mantains a bit more oil pressure than the std rb26 pump, but other than that it has the same flow rate.when putting these high power motors together it is good practice to remove the backing plate from the oil pump and red locktite the screws in place as they have been known to work their way loose on high hp/high rev cars, cheap insurance imho.

Post by **gawdzilla** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:28 pm

aren't they locktited from the factory?

I only used blue

Post by **RBTALLY** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:18 pm

this is how I fixed it

Post by **krayton** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:36 pm

nice tally.

...but now the dreaded question, what did the grand total come out too??

Post by **RBTALLY** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:44 pm

650.00 for the pump 175.00belt and pullys250.00 for the hoses75.00 in the relocation kit and filter750.00 for the ballencer

total 1900.00

but I would just have a drive built for the stock ballencer for normal use...that should only be around 200.00 or so

Post by **Dano** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:56 pm

So for 400whp and under range would u still suggest the collar?

-Dan

Post by **krayton** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:58 pm

240sx2nr95 wrote:So for 400whp and under range would u still suggest the collar?

-Dan

if i understand yes. for rb20s and series I rb25s and even early rb26s. that power around redline it should be done. for those engines i guess its a known problem

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:17 pm

240sx2nr95 wrote:So for 400whp and under range would u still suggest the collar?

-Dan

yeah, my motor was cranking out over 450bhp when it was running its best, and on tear down the crank drive and oil pump was beginning to show some wear.it really should be done as a precautionary measure.

Post by **240z4u** » Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:29 pm

FYI series 2 motors of rb25 also need the crank issue addressed. I had mine welded.

Evan

Website · Post by **Bronze MFP** » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:04 am

Carl H wrote:yeah, my motor was cranking out over 450bhp when it was running its best

orly?

Post by **greenmonster80** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:14 pm

Here is a quick pic to show the difference between the 2 oil drives on the crank. The Rb20 crank is top right and Rb26 crank with welded collar is in the block...Rb2.4det incase you were wondering...

Post by **Darius** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:54 am

Perfect pic greenmonster! I was going to post a pic of my RB25 oil drive because mine was showing wear and it only has 40,000 miles on it, but yours looks exactly the same on the RB20 (even where the wear is occuring).

Post by **GTR Shop** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:07 am

We've just had a HUGE run of collars done if anyone is interested.

Post by **Darius** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:54 am

So if I install the N1 oil pump, what kind of modifications will I have to make to other things? Or can I just bolt it on and go? FYI, I have the tomei oil orifice going in the block and will be running the stock turbo for a while. JUN crank collar is in route too.

Post by **krayton** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:07 am

the n1 pump should be bolt in

Post by **98birdls1** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:32 pm

While we're showing pics, here's pics of my oil pump and crankshaft pump drive. You can see the slightly worn area where there is VERY little contact between the pump and the drive.

Luke

Post by **Darius** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:36 pm

dude i swear our projects are exactly the same. My crank snout looks exactly like that as does my oil pump. I've got one up on you with my fried bearings though.

Post by **98birdls1** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:40 pm

Perhaps you missed the pic of my scored pistons in the other thread. Even again.

And yes our swaps are so similar its eriee.

Luke

Post by **Phat_Optimo** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:04 pm

I had a shop weld mine. Easiest decision I have ever made... Cost and performance wise...

Post by **GTR Shop** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:52 pm

Carl H wrote:n1 pump moves the same ammount of oil as a rb26 pump which moves more oil than a rb25 pump or a rb20 pump.the main diffrence is that it mantains a bit more oil pressure than the std rb26 pump, but other than that it has the same flow rate.

Completely different pump designs.Nissan have use 4 pump designs on RB series engines.Vane gearsWave gearsR34 (extra screw)N1 - completely different

Pic is of N1 vs std wave gear pump.Note the gear shape and casting also relief passages and extra screw.N1 relief also only has 1 spring as opposed to dual on normal.

Post by **lucky7** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:06 pm

GTR Shop wrote:We've just had a HUGE run of collars done if anyone is interested.

what kind of price are we looking at? im having a shop do my swap. since this is really confusing to me, would they know what im talking about if i bring them a new collar? ill have to read a little more in-depth about this. i dont want something like this on my concience when i go to buy that GT35R...

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:10 pm

right right...minor details now which one is the n1 pump so i dont feel like such an ***, the pump ive got looks like the bottom one and hopefuly thats the n1 pump.i did notice a diffrence in pumps when i took apart my rb20 pump to compare to the n1 i have.

GTR Shop wrote:
Completely different pump designs.Nissan have use 4 pump designs on RB series engines.Vane gearsWave gearsR34 (extra screw)N1 - completely different

Pic is of N1 vs std wave gear pump.Note the gear shape and casting also relief passages and extra screw.N1 relief also only has 1 spring as opposed to dual on normal.

Post by **GTR Shop** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:22 pm

lucky7 wrote:
what kind of price are we looking at?

Prob looking at ~$90us freighted by air.Can do better for quantity, and to save on shipping.

Post by **GTR Shop** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:25 pm

Carl H wrote:right right...minor details now which one is the n1 pump so i dont feel like such an ***, the pump ive got looks like the bottom one and hopefuly thats the n1 pump.i did notice a diffrence in pumps when i took apart my rb20 pump to compare to the n1 i have.

I stand corrected.. there are 5 pumps I'll post some of Nissans drawings and pump details when i scan them.Bottom one is N1 so you're sweet

Post by **Carl H** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:25 pm

good to hear, makes me feel a bit better.took my pump apart and filled it with assembly lube to help prime it when i go to crank the car for the first time.cleaned the threads on the pump and redlocktited the screws in and then tightend the living hell out of them, hopefuly they wont back out like some of the horror stories ive read on SAU...

Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus

Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus

Re: Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus (krayton)

Re: Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus (Darius)

Re: (gawdzilla)

Re: (krayton)

Re: (240sx2nr95)

Re: (240sx2nr95)

Re: (Carl H)

Re: (Carl H)

Re: (Bronze MFP)

Re: (greenmonster80)

Re: (krayton)

Re: (98birdls1)

Re: (Darius)

Re: Oil Pump and Crank Collar gurus (krayton)

Re: (Carl H)

Re: (GTR Shop)

Re: (GTR Shop)

Re: (lucky7)

Re: (Carl H)

Re: (GTR Shop)

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