Why Nissan NEEDS an Affordable RWD Sports Car

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Can't say that doesn't surprise me.


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float_6969
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Yea, they must have taken it down. I had it up on their wall.

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It was seen at least. I've watched it make its rounds on the S-chassis pages

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Loki wrote:Pleasantly surprised to hear you like the new Mustang, Greg.
Eh, don't get all crazy. :)

I saw the '15 models at Barrett-Jackson. It's the same formula as the Camaro - Bloated, enormous cars with ridiculously-high beltlines, seats that look like a Barcalounger, and donk wheels.

If I can't reach the other side of the roof, it's not a sports car. Period.

Just throwing some "retro" styling cues at what is essentially a 2-door Ford 500 doesn't make it a sports car.

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Had to share the comic (and Jesda's BRILLIANT rant) on FB.

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Nissan execs are STILL saying stupid things:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014 ... -boss.html

Meanwhile, we're still waiting for ANYTHING under $25k that's RWD with a manual trans from Nissan.

Methinks someone needs to put up or shut up, because last I checked, the FR-S and BRZ are STILL selling well.

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"designed for a 50-year-old" :rotfl That's about the most weaksauce response I've ever heard. Yea, that's EXACTLY who they designed it for and EXACTLY who's buying it in droves. Riiiiight. The more Nissan talks, the more I expect a FWD CVT with paddle shifters.

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^ Yep.

So far, the sound of flapping gums is deafening. I'd rather hear a high-strung, efficient, turbocharged 2-liter rowing through the gears.

Meanwhile, Mazda is having their best year in history, and the resurgent interest in the Miata PROVES that Nissan's missing yet another boat.

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float_6969 wrote:"designed for a 50-year-old" :rotfl That's about the most weaksauce response I've ever heard. Yea, that's EXACTLY who they designed it for and EXACTLY who's buying it in droves. Riiiiight. The more Nissan talks, the more I expect a FWD CVT with paddle shifters.
Actually, 50 years old sounds about right if you step outside of the enthusiast bubble and look at the overall market. In other words, a couple of years younger than the average new car buyer and about a decade younger than the typical Camaro buyer.

http://blog.polk.com/blog/blog-posts-by ... ger-buyers

While there are outliers, 18-34 year olds only make up ~11% of new car registrations. Of overall new car buyers, women make up over 2/3 of buyers and influence over 80% of sales. The female skew is even more the case in with younger buyers, where reliability, warranty, styling, features and safety tend to be greater driving factors than performance.

Because it is taking so long for millennials to establish their careers, once they get into their late 30's and gain the income associated with a new car purchase, things like kids tend to get in the way. Most young enthusiasts are buying used cars. Which has led to the current situation where sports cars are overwhelmingly purchased new by empty nesters.

http://blog.polk.com/blog/blog-posts-by ... rand-loyal

Putting the Toyobaru twins at the 50 year old point means that they are taking a disproportionate amount of young new sports car buyers. And as manual transmissions make up less than 4% of new car sales in the US, I would assume they are taking a significant portion of those sales too.

Now, to reach a larger portion of the younger market, you will likely have to offer models that appeal to a larger range of people than just all-out enthusiast new car buyers (who tend to be older, often buying a second car). Think Golf/GTI, which tends to have one of the youngest average buyer ages and could easily work as the only car for a young couple. I assume that is where they are headed with the iDX Freeflow, which is feature-rich (i.e., profit-rich), styling-centric, has a useable back seat, etc. It wouldn't surprise me if there ends up being a 4 door/hatch version as well.

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Anybody got anything on the supposed redesign of the iDX? I've heard they are moving away from the 510 look and more toward their current design language.

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We're hearing it's less and less likely to come to fruition, especially since Palmer left for Aston-Martin.

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But hey, at least you can get the juke in a variety of color combinations now!

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I've been absent from NICO for a while and enjoyed reading through this thread. Nissan lost the pulse of its buyers on many counts. An economy minded 4 seat 4 cylinder manual transmission sporty car is sorely missing from the lineup, as has been stated, and the FRS pretty much has that market cornered. It's clear that Nissan isn't listening.

I've owned several Nissans over the years and currently have 3....an '85 300ZX, my '98 Frontier, and a 2012 AWD LE Murano. The CVT equipped Murano is our second and it serves my wife well as a luxury people mover, but it's certainly no enthusiasts' dream. My other two Nissans have 3 pedals.

While I'm a couple years late to the party in this thread, some other grievances are as follows:

Trucks: Where is the effort? Toyota hasn't redesigned so Nissan sees no need to do this either. The Frontier and Xterra are extremely dated. Maybe that's not a bad thing since every time they redesign something they deviate further from what it should be. Case in point: Taking the legacy of the pathfinder and turning it into a car based station wagon. It's an insult to the Pathfinder name. For us 4x4 guys, the Wrangler is the only solid axle small 4x4 you can buy. For years we so badly wanted the Aussie spec solid axle Patrols to make it here, but they never did. Now even the Patrols have turned into giant p**** trucks made for soft asses and paved roads.

Titan? It's the most obsolete truck on the road. The other truck manufacturers have are on their 3rd generation of redesigned trucks since the Titan was refreshed, and the Titan was never that good to begin with. The cummins powered Titan holds some promise, but as I'd mentioned in the other thread, I hope they beef up the rest of the drivetrain to handle it, because the current Titan drivetrain barely holds up to the dated 5.6.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread as a whole. If I buy another new vehicle, chances are almost certain it won't be another Nissan. They just don't have anything inspiring anymore.

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Welcome back!

Lots of truth in that post... I wonder who's listening? It's pretty clear that Mr. Palmer wasn't.

Maybe his successor will be more in-touch.

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They have people on Facebook now. We're no longer important.

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AZhitman wrote:Welcome back!

Lots of truth in that post... I wonder who's listening? It's pretty clear that Mr. Palmer wasn't.

Maybe his successor will be more in-touch.

Palmer was clearly a car salesman, and to that end, it's more profitable to selll 250k cookie cutter Altimas than it is to build a bare bones sports coupe that at best would sell 40-50k units in a year. Options is where profits are made. Stripping them down cuts into margins and it's clear Nissan has no interest in that.

Unfortunately it's the consumer that loses. Honestly I'm shocked that they're even still making the 370Z, and despite comments here, the thought of a stripped down 4 banger Z just makes me sick. If they're going that route, drop the Z name and call it an SX.

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Desert Rat wrote:I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread as a whole. If I buy another new vehicle, chances are almost certain it won't be another Nissan. They just don't have anything inspiring anymore.
I'm in the same boat. I want to buy another Nissan, but this time around I would like a RWD vehicle for under 25k. I've only been wanting one since 2004. Nissan needs to wake up. Everybody else is going in the direction of performance.. even Toyota with the Scion FR-S gets it!

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Desert Rat wrote: Unfortunately it's the consumer that loses. Honestly I'm shocked that they're even still making the 370Z, and despite comments here, the thought of a stripped down 4 banger Z just makes me sick. If they're going that route, drop the Z name and call it an SX.
This brings up a point I wanted to make (and may have already made), but I feel that the 370Z is often viewed as "guilty by association". It's one of the few machines that Nissan is actually doing right in the grand scheme of things.

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I would agree. The Z in the only car in the lineup I would entertain owning. If the BRZ wasn't available I likely would have seriously looked at the Z. It's a bit bloated and overpriced for what I want, but it's the closest to my ideal in a world where the BRZ doesn't exist. The Roadster is just too friggin ugly and the new iteration too far away.

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Sadly none of the Japanese automakers are listening to American enthusiast.
And they have not learned from The big Three.

1. Make a cool looking sports car.
2. 1 platform with allot o0f options. (Everything you got in the house)
3. 4cyl base. V6 midrange , V8 monster.
4. 4cyl around 24K just right for a college grad.
5. V6 good all-around competitive platform.
6. V8 Drift and Drag monster.

You keep costumer loyalty while giving room for their growth.
I have a 300zx and 240sx. now my wife wants a G35 sedan. Why?
Because they will all match.
Although I love my 240 Nissan has not grown the car to match my desires.
Nissan needs to continue the Silvia model, to grab younger buyers,
And No Hybrid crap!
And I am not 50 years old.

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Just give up on trying to change Nissan. You're an abused trailer park wife convinced her drunk husband is going to change cause "He was a good man in 1995." Accept what Nissan is or change brands.

Zoom Zoom.

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Or better yet, speak to a corporation in the only language they understand, money. Go guy a Genesis Coupe, or a BRZ, or a FRS, or a Miata, etc. The more of those kind of vehicles that are sold, the more likely Nissan is to actually do something. Until then, they'll sit on their haunches and sell Altima and Rogues.

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float_6969 wrote:Or better yet, speak to a corporation in the only language they understand, money. Go guy a Genesis Coupe, or a BRZ, or a FRS, or a Miata, etc. The more of those kind of vehicles that are sold, the more likely Nissan is to actually do something. Until then, they'll sit on their haunches and sell Altima and Rogues.
To modify that, if you want automakers to listen, you, your friends, and your relatives overseas need to buy NEW at a price point where the automakers can make a profit. It has reached the point that automakers can't afford to engineer and develop these cars without partnering up (Toyota/Subaru, Toyota/BMW, Mazda/FiatChrysler). Sales of the BRZ and FRS have not lived up to expectations and there is talk of cancelling them. Genesis coupe has an uncertain future. I feel lucky we still have the 370Z and that they are planning on a replacement. Until people start buying the existing cars NEW at a profitable volume and price point, automakers are unlikely to want to invest ~$1 Billion dollars to develop a new platform/model and invest even more money trying to sell them.

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So, essentially, buy something you don't want on the slim possibility the carmaker will make something you do like as a reward for "taking one for the team?" F that. Make what I want or get NONE of my money. :nono: I asked for years for an affordable simple fun RWD car. Nissan put a Z in front of me with no turbos and said "take it or leave it." Toybaru said, "you like this?"

I said "here's my money." :bigthumb:

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I AM THE %$*&#@! CUSTOMER!
You please me and I reward you with business. You ignore me I ignore you. That's entirely your fault. :poke:

Nissan is that bitchy popular girl two years after graduation still folding clothes at the Gap thinking she still has that prom queen juice. Nope. Time to work on your personality, b****.

Image

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Lol what a sharp contrast. Honestly, I saw this coming after the debut of the 350z/g35 back in 2003 or so. Ten years later and we have a 370z and the Q60 that for some strange reason jumped 10K in MSRP due to a badge change. What hurts the most is that they could've done things so differently and their market and financial portfolio would have reflected so. Instead one bad decision led to another and another and another. At the end of the day, we are the minority and that is fact. But, it just hasn't dawned on the higher ups that if the father of a household enjoys one company's product, he is most likely going to purchase a product from that same company for his wife and children. Works the same for mothers as well. Companies are so worried about excel spreadsheets that they fail to see that common sense could easily rectify whatever is wrong with the spreadsheet.

Either way, the 370 Nismo and the GTR are the only things that appeal to me. The Nismo is priced too closely to other non-two seat vehicles with similar power/specs and I don't have GTR money at the moment. So why go to a Nissan dealership?

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I can't say I'm disappointed to see Mr. Palmer gone from the company.

While I appreciate that he took time out of his schedule to pop in and converse with us, the other side of that is this: I guarantee I'm busier than he is, and he should appreciate that there's a massive group of us who still give a damn about the company and what they do.

It also wouldn't have hurt him to be a little more honest and transparent, considering I weed out bullshat for a living, 40 hours a week. Coming in here and feeding us some sanitized "company line" is disrespectful and belittling.

Now - what does that mean for the company moving forward? It's still unclear. I'm getting some positive vibes from the Product Planners, Motorsports team, and other management staff, but this will take a LONG time to remedy... it's like turning an aircraft carrier 90* from course.

I've got a garage full of classic Nissan products (and a couple newer ones), but every day that I commute in my turbo Miata is one less day I'm out there promoting the company that brought us all here.

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themadscientist wrote:So, essentially, buy something you don't want on the slim possibility the carmaker will make something you do like as a reward for "taking one for the team?" F that. Make what I want or get NONE of my money. :nono: I asked for years for an affordable simple fun RWD car. Nissan put a Z in front of me with no turbos and said "take it or leave it." Toybaru said, "you like this?"

I said "here's my money." :bigthumb:

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I AM THE %$*&#@! CUSTOMER!
You please me and I reward you with business. You ignore me I ignore you. That's entirely your fault. :poke:
I think you missed my point, and I didn't articulate well.

Here is the thing: it costs $1-6 Billion dollars to develop a new car (based on IHS), which is dramatically more than it used to be. A very low volume halo car is actually much less expensive to develop than a mass market car, as you don't have to engineer out costs and it falls into multiple low-volume loopholes (GTR's aren't crash tested in the US). But to have affordable RWD, you need economies of scale. Modern safety standards alone make things amazingly expensive--a glove box lid costs millions to develop between design, deformation simulations, impact testing, etc. And an S13 platform will not meet modern safety standards.

If you look at the FRS/BRZ, they are now selling a few hundred a month, less than half what they were when it was first reported they were not living up to sales projections. 100k total sales over all model years may be realistic-- and the platform doesn't lend itself well to other vehicles. If Toyota/Subaru did it on the cheap, let's optimistically estimate $2 Billion for development... or $20k per car. And that's just development. In addition, you have marketing costs that failed to connect with new car buyers, underutilized production lines, lack of scale in parts purchasing, etc... Toyota/Subaru is likely losing money on each car outside of development costs.

If you pay $25k for a car, $2500 goes to dealer and transport, and the automaker spent $45k to produce it (which may well be the case, net, when everything is tallied up)... they tend to not feel as grateful for you covering half of their cost.

So, taking all that into account, it isn't just your money. Even when profitable, cars are not a high-margin category. Sometimes your money isn't a reward, it is just partially covering a massive loss on the part of the automaker.

So, if I am an automaker and I see the money Toyota/Subaru would undoubtedly be losing if I applied estimated costs to their sales numbers, I would be unlikely to want to make that money-losing investment. If I wanted a halo vehicle for marketing purposes, I could do a supercar for a fraction of the net costs... Or, I could take a compact car, spend a fraction as much to make it taller and call it a crossover, charge a premium for that, produce millions of them at low costs and make massive profits.

It is just kind of the reality of the cost to develop/sell a new car today and the market for affordable sports cars. There are a lot of people out there who would love to have options, but not enough new car buyers in the segment to make those options financially viable. Because the BRZ/FRS have failed to live up to the sales volumes needed to avoid massive losses, few other automakers will be willing to take on a similar proposition.

So please, keep buying the car. And convince your friends to. If enough people band together and the market becomes viable for multiple players to participate, more automakers will join in.

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AZhitman wrote:
Maybe his successor will be more in-touch.
I'm skeptical the new guy will do much of anything for us enthusiasts based on his comments about the FRS/BRZ. Hopefully "Lucky Pierre" will surprise us in a good, non-urban dictionary kinda way.

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The biggest problem is passenger cars change every year/ two years/ 3 years for almost NO REASON. Industrial equipment changes once a decade, and is R&D'd better. Car makers are fighting a losing model based on the consumerism of the opulence seeking baby boomers, and not catering to the function driven modern consumer.


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