I read on Autoblog today that Nissan has a new concept car that will show in Detroit next week. Plus, what will likely be the new Versa hatch.

What is the likelihood that this may be what we're looking for?

Jesda wrote: Moral of the story, regarding affordable sports cars: If you build it, they will come.

At Nissan, you have people at the very top (I'm calling you out AGAIN, Carlos Ghosn, as I have been since 2003) who would rather devote engineering and design resources to the Murano Crosscabriolet than an affordable sports car for enthusiasts. The Crosscabrio has been a sales flop and an absolute disaster for Nissan's image.

Well-said.

Here's the thing... the economies of scale, AND the unification of platforms for interchangeability sake, is NOT alive and well with Nissan. If anyone cares to challenge this, let me ask you this:

Why do the Cube, Versa and Sentra have different diameter CV axle shafts - but only one end? Why do they have THREE different 6MT transmissions? Why THREE different engines (1.6, 1.8, 2.0) all less than 25-hp apart? Why are the front spindles different on all three cars?

Despite their shared "platform", they're really not taking advantage of an opportunity to scale these cars into efficient production, if they each require distinct / unique parts (that could EASILY have been interchangeable). By that measure, each car could have been more profitable - plus, look at all the tooling / production / training / literature / packaging / transportation / maintenance costs that could have been saved by using ONE platform with TWO drivetrains for THREE distinct cars.

We're fortunate to have people aboard this forum who have been students and followers of the goings-on of automakers for decades... when laypersons see the flaws in the plan, it's time to revise that plan.

I'm sure Mr. Ghosn means well - after all, his #1 responsibility is to the shareholders. However, the pursuit of "volume, volume, volume" is short-sighted and reinforces public perception that all you offer are bland, pedestrian vehicles. Ask Toyota.

But toyota has a reputation for bland, great quality vehicles that run for ever.

Nissan being bland-ized just means that they won't have what it was that made people buy nissan... because for bland, toyota's got that covered.

I shall say it again: 18k, 250hp, factory options for (and options are where they get you, anyways) a full, but well integrated and low-profile cage, and all that sort of thing. No open diff anywhere in the lineup. All that sort of thing. Basically like they did with he sports package of the dogde viper, but like 80k cheaper. Suddenly, new buyers can choose between hardcore sports car, or some little economy thing.... and more will buy sports cars. Nissan has made sports cars into an expensive thing, which is NOT how you sell sports cars.

AZhitman wrote:I'm sure Mr. Ghosn means well - after all, his #1 responsibility is to the shareholders. However, the pursuit of "volume, volume, volume" is short-sighted and reinforces public perception that all you offer are bland, pedestrian vehicles. Ask Toyota.

Been saying this for years. Success now at the cost of success tomorrow.

Jesda wrote:

nissangirl74 wrote:
Much of the Zs success was due to the fact that Nissan used many parts of the 510 on the Z. This cut production costs. The cost of a brand new Z was only $3,526 in comparison to the the Vette which was $5,200. The Jags, Porsches, and Mercedes were all more expensive as well. Finally, there was a sports car available to the blue collar working man.

This is a very important point, quoted here for emphasis.

The current Camaro shares its architecture with the Commodore/Omega, Park Avenue/Statesman/Caprice, and Ute. The next Camaro will likely be built on the smaller Alpha platform, currently underpinning the Cadillac ATS and expected to serve as the basis for almost all of GM's rear-drive passenger cars. Additionally, the Challenger uses the LX platform from the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. The Mustang's cost savings are partly because its platform was derived from DEW which underpins the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-type, and Jaguar XF.


A new sports car doesn't have to be built from the ground up with an entirely new platform or entirely new powertrain, especially if the goal is for it to be affordable. Flexibility is key.

This comes back around, too! Early 80s Maximas were based on the contemporary Z, and the marketing took advantage of this. It's the earliest origins of the 4DSC stuff (though it wasn't realized until nearly a decade later). It was definitely a luxury car (hood ornaments for crying out loud) but it made use of its "sports car" DNA. Even the later FWD 4DSC Maximas were quick to point out that they shared their engine with "The Z".

The same thing will happen with GM's Zeta and Alpha platforms. GM will save money by spreading the load (and as a result, is able to produce better cars for less!) and people will brag about how their sedan has sports car in its DNA.

mechanicalmoron wrote:But toyota has a reputation for bland, great quality vehicles that run for ever.

Nissan being bland-ized just means that they won't have what it was that made people buy nissan... because for bland, toyota's got that covered.

There's no "but" - I concur 100%.

Until someone at Nissan is willing to pull a "Yutaka Katayama" and tell the bean counters and attorneys to "shut up and go away", there's not going to be a sub-$25K, 250-hp, manual trans, lightweight RWD sports car with no extra crap.

Skip the Bluetooth, the park assist, the VDC, the moonroof, the automatic climate control, leather seats, the rear cameras, the electrochromatic mirrors, the HID lights, the one-touch windows, the LED crap, the power seats...

This can't be difficult - I'm thinking through the 2012 parts bin from the Nissan lineup and can envision 75% of the car, completed.

I think the most unfortunate part of this is that they might learn the lesson, but WAY too late. The toyobaru and genesis coupe are going to have a HUGE following and aftermarket support by the time Nissan has an entry in this market. As much as I hate to say it, I think it's too little to late for Nissan on this. I'd love to be proven wrong, and if they do come out with something that's what we want, I'll buy it in a heartbeat. But I'm pretty sure my next new car will be a BRZ.

float_6969 wrote:The toyobaru and genesis coupe are going to have a HUGE following and aftermarket support by the time Nissan has an entry in this market.

I will testify that this is already the case before Nissan even has an entry. At NOPI last year, there were nearly as many Genesis Coupes as there were Z cars (I only saw Z32s, Z33s, and Z34s). Staggering when you consider the Z has seen nearly 40 model years while the Genesis has only seen 10% of that.

...and at SEMA, you literally couldn't turn around without seeing 2-3 of the Toyobaru twins.

The problem is every time I try to envision this car and what it should be, I come up with an s13 (structurally and stylistically), with a beefier stock frame, tubs, tubes, optional stock (but super low profile, tucked, and being OEM, well designed and safe) cage, simpler and more to-the-point/hackable reparable and modifiable wiring, and LSD.

They had it right. 20 years ago.

A lot of car manufacturers get a lot right. And then they discontinue it for the next model year. Like a little while ago honda had an awesome civic, and it sold great, because it did what a civic needed to do, was super utilitarian, quality, simple, cheap, efficient. And then they upgraded it, and in doing so, ruined all the aforementioned specs. And they made great jeeps half a century ago, but they still keep changing them and adding plastic. It's not just nissan that made it right, and then fell off the wagon.

The car industry, like many industries, fixes a lot that's not broken. There's a pressure for more frequent model revisions than is necessary, and constantly jamming all sorts of crap into cars that should be cheap, and then charging more for it.

I laugh every time I see a new name for the toyobaru, or is it subyota. Everyone has their own name for them. Wonder what they're called in Japan? Supreza?

mechanicalmoron wrote:They had it right. 20 years ago.

Yep. However...

That car wouldn't pass any of the NHTSA / FVMSS / CAFE standards, much less make the EPA happy. Blame the politicians and attorneys.

I don't have a lot to say, but here it is. As stated a couple posts up it needs to be simple and to the point, open to the aftermarket and tuner scene. It needs to come soon too. Nissan has become bland, period. The 350 didn't interest me, the 370 is a little better but out of my price range. As for the GTR, it's out of my price range and in a whole class of its own awesomeness hahah I love my z32 but it will soon be less of a street car and more of a track machine, I will want another car down the road for normal driving, aside from the truck, that is comfortable, still a little fun and has the classic Nissan sports car styling! I will be in the market for another car in a couple years and as it stands, Nissan has nothing to offer me. Unfortunately.

Cheers
Brad

AZhitman wrote:

mechanicalmoron wrote:They had it right. 20 years ago.

Yep. However...

That car wouldn't pass any of the NHTSA / FVMSS / CAFE standards, much less make the EPA happy. Blame the politicians and attorneys.

Well I just mean, something like that as a starting point. How hard can it be to jam some airbags in it (with a "i'm wearing a harness, go away" disconnect somewhere) and put a modern high performance turbo motor in it? I don't mean the exact same thing, I just mean take a lesson from their older cheap sports cars. Spend less time and money making funny shaped headlights and plastic trim that fit like puzzle pieces, and make a simple, classy, reserved looking car for less money, with cheaper start-up costs for the model (cheaper, simpler tooling/forms/etc) and all that sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I agree 100%.

In other news, we're hearing some low rumblings about a small sports car to be slotted beneath the Z, that's being fast-tracked into production.

We'll keep you guys posted as we get more details - I'll be real disappointed if we, as the largest conglomeration of enthusiasts on the web, don't get the earliest scoop.

Mr. Palmer, what sayest thou? We're holding our breath - and if our past efforts with Zocalo Group and Chiat/Day are any indicator, we're pretty good at waving the banner.

If this actually happens, I will make a pledge right now. My S14, the heavily modified CA18 inside of it, the standalone, all the suspension, the stereo and the the wife's Miata will all be sold immediately to buy this car. I want to show Nissan that there is a market for this car. That it will sell. I will also make a pledge that my wife and I will do our damnedest to be competitive in this car on a National level in Autocross with the SCCA, blazing Nissan/NICO stickers all over it.

^ That's how we do it. And I'm certain there's a lot more people eager to do the same. I don't want to buy another brand - but right now, I can't get excited about anything in the lineup (that fits our needs).

I'd hold off on that commitment right now. Supposedly Nissan has stated it'll be a polarizing "you'll either love it or hate it" type design, and that it isn't meant to compete with the BRZ/FRS (so maybe it'll be FWD or something).

It definitely has to be worth buying for me to buy it though. I'm not just going to get it if its a turd with a Nissan badge on it and marketing tells me its a sports car.

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:I'd hold off on that commitment right now. Supposedly Nissan has stated it'll be a polarizing "you'll either love it or hate it" type design, and that it isn't meant to compete with the BRZ/FRS (so maybe it'll be FWD or something).

It definitely has to be worth buying for me to buy it though. I'm not just going to get it if its a turd with a Nissan badge on it and marketing tells me its a sports car.

If the front wheels spin AND the rear ones don't, and it's intended to be anything but an economy car, in all but very select situations, it would fit the "turd" catagory IMO. If it's FWD I would expect it would be a more extreme version of putting a truck motor in the 240: americans don't want fun cars, they want cheap insurance and things that LOOK sporty

Whatever's going for it, FWD's just no fun to drive, IMO. FR is really fun, simple, etc. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Eh, my prelude is pretty fun to drive. It can be done, it's just more difficult.
The Juke is actually pretty fun for what it is. Its no 240 or Miata by any stretch, but you'd never expect it to be as fun as it is, considering it is as ugly as it is.

Hey, even old Sentra SE-Rs were fun to drive, and they were FWD.

They said that about the Juke design, and I like the Juke. But, if it's not RWD, I'll keep the S14.

I'm very much a RWD elitist (I don't even like AWD) but I absolutely agree that FWD can be done right, and can be fun. But FWD done right usually doesn't include strut or torsion beam suspension, so most modern front-drivers are out. The Prelude is very much the exception. While I do ABSOLUTELY believe that front tires are for steering and rear tires are for pushing, I don't think the drive wheels are FWD's only problem. Sometimes it's not even the biggest. The real problem is that most FWD cars are nose-heavy with lazy rear suspension. Cars like the Prelude, Maxima, and TSX stand apart because they're fairly well-balanced, with neutral chassis dynamics and at least halfway-decent suspension setups.

The Maxima is the only FWD car I've ever owned, but I still very much enjoyed driving it.

It all depends on the alti-coupe,they kill it and a slot opens up for a rwd platform,nissan has many small rwd platforms,they can retool.i am for the first time able to buy a new 20-30k car and i want rwd nissan dawm-it, the 370 is out of my price range,a used uprev naw,my options are few so im waiting,saving,hopeing for a rwd nissan,or ima whind up geting the toyburu

It is true that FWD can be done right, but I don't think that is the car we are hoping for here, at least not me. I have a Mazdaspeed Protege, and it's very balanced and fun to drive, but the 240 ALWAYS puts a smile on my face.

float_6969 wrote:It is true that FWD can be done right, but I don't think that is the car we are hoping for here, at least not me. I have a Mazdaspeed Protege, and it's very balanced and fun to drive, but the 240 ALWAYS puts a smile on my face.

Basically how I feel about my LS. And it's the reason I've never owned a late-90s Seville STS. I know that I'd love the car, but I'd also constantly be aware that it's not quite what I want it to be, and that the FWD is holding it back.

The other side of the coin is, nissan doesn't care much and the BRZ is pretty sweet looking, without TOO much batmobile. When I'm old and not so poor (but still poor) I guess I'll get one used. New sports cars for people with budgets won't be pushed anyways, because they hardly had the money for the car, they won't be about to risk the car's health on modification.

Toyota was in the same position. The masters of the checkbook haden't let it happen, but they realized that crossovers are freaking boring soccer mom cars (no offence to any sports car driving soccer moms reading this) and that car companies are killing their own market, by making driving boring. That's why toyota's working so hard on commercials about how fun and exciting to drive their cars are, and making sedans with three times the HP that those models had 15 years ago, and ads about how awesome their alloy wheels are and make the wife's camry fun for the guys too, or whatever.

If you make cars boring, less people will like cars, or be interested in cars, that's the bottom line. And then they go "but we can't make that, nobody will buy it, because we killed everyone's interest in our cars for anything but getting the kids to soccer practice".

American manufacturers have figured it out too, with their revived sports cars. They're not even designed for car people, they're designed to make non-car people excited to own something that looks like it drove out of 1970, Thus creating themselves futre generations who see sports cars and get excited. And, they send the clear message that fast, powerful cars look like american muscle cars, not imports.

Good job nissan

Sports cars are RWD...period. When I look at a Prelude or Protege I don't think to myself, man that's a sweet sports car. Front, mid or rear engine placement with rear drive. Anything else falls into a separate category entirely.

Just sayin. Lets not water this thread down with "oh that could be fun" non sense.

WDRacing wrote:Sports cars are RWD...period. When I look at a Prelude or Protege I don't think to myself, man that's a sweet sports car. Front, mid or rear engine placement with rear drive. Anything else falls into a separate category entirely.

Just sayin. Lets not water this thread down with "oh that could be fun" non sense.

Exactly

WDRacing wrote:Sports cars are RWD...period. When I look at a Prelude or Protege I don't think to myself, man that's a sweet sports car. Front, mid or rear engine placement with rear drive. Anything else falls into a separate category entirely.

Just sayin. Lets not water this thread down with "oh that could be fun" non sense.

Shhhhh, don't tell Lotus!


I really agree with you, but it's fun to stir the pot.

For the record, the Elan started out as a FR platform, went to the FF for one model and is now back to what Lotus does best, Mid/Rear. I didn't have to tell Lotus, it seems they figured it out for themselves

MinisterofDOOM wrote:

WDRacing wrote:Sports cars are RWD...period. When I look at a Prelude or Protege I don't think to myself, man that's a sweet sports car. Front, mid or rear engine placement with rear drive. Anything else falls into a separate category entirely.

Just sayin. Lets not water this thread down with "oh that could be fun" non sense.

Shhhhh, don't tell Lotus!

Or Lamborghini, or Porsche as they have AWD/4WD options. Or the Veyron.