krash wrote:

300ZXttZMAN wrote: The BRZ/FRS are both boxer engines AFAIK. I think that was a horrible choice for the power plant that Toyota and suby chose. Boxer engines suck to work on, everyone knows that they suck to work on. One of the biggest things people do to these light weight FR drivetrain cars is to upgrade things.

SO say you want to upgrade the turbo on the BRZ ok well it probably requires an engine pull ect. Say you get a tune for more boost on your BRZ but you need to get colder plugs ok well 8 hours later you can pull the plugs out another 8 hours you will have them back in.

Putting the boxer in there wasn't a horrible choice. What cheap, somewhat fun RWD motor does Toyota have right now?

None but thats not our problem.

You know what would be cool? Take the Nissan Cude and make it into a 510.

sizmik wrote:You know what would be cool? Take the Nissan Cude and make it into a 510.

Mr. Palmer,
Welcome to nico and thank you for taking the time to read and consider everyones responses on the need for a more affordable sports car.
It really does mean alot.
The first nissan I drove was my sisters 93' Altima which was given to me in 2004 after she siezed the engine. I lovingly replaced the ka24 with a low mileage used unit and preceded to put 100,000miles on it. This car still runs today last time I saw it parked in a lot I peeked in the window just to see how many miles were on it. It was aroud 248,000. That nissan made me love the quality in the brand.

In 2006 I bought my 93' 240sx sapphire blue hatch. I have done more to that than I want to list because it would take too long. But it is a sr20 powered 375whp 330 ft/lb AWESOME MACHINE! That I drift on a regular basis. Greg and many others have seen this first hand at Nicofest Carlisle.
I have only owned Nissan since 2004 including:
2002 sentra se-r spec v
1990 300zx n/a
2000 frontier crew cab.

I still have the 240 and I now own a 2005 titan to haul it to the race track. Plus my future wife owns a 95 240sx. So we are a Nissan family. And I could honestly say if a cheaper s-chassis type sports car came to market it would be my first new car purchase ever. I am 26 years old have a good job and good credit. So I really hope something happens. I'll be patiently waiting.

Nissan OWNS the drift scene. But these other brands are making a good showing now. Like the gt86/frs, genesis, soltice/sky.
We would love to see a fresh s-chassis continuing to own the drift scene. We are going to run out of s13,s14's someday.

Thanks for your time.
Rob

^ Well-said, brother.

I sure wish someone from Nissan could come out to our event at Carlisle and see what we do... I think they'd leave with a newfound appreciation for the enthusiasm of this community.

AZhitman wrote: I sure wish someone from Nissan could come out to our event at Carlisle and see what we do...

AZhitman wrote:^ Well-said, brother.

I sure wish someone from Nissan could come out to our event at Carlisle and see what we do... I think they'd leave with a newfound appreciation for the enthusiasm of this community.

i second that

PapaSmurf2k3 wrote:

AZhitman wrote: I sure wish someone from Nissan could come out to our event at Carlisle and see what we do...

You know anyone who works for Nissan?

I got an email from datsun classifieds today(classiczcars.com), and they said to watch for news in the upcoming year about a new 240z coming in 2014! I hope this is true, that will be awesome. I only owe $5000 on my xterra, so the timing couldn't be better for me.

The lineup through 2016 is already set... If there was something "new" coming out in 2014, we'd already know about it. Sounds like hype to get clicks.

I just posted on their website and asked if that was true or not and told them to quit posting bs rumors, and start posting facts. All of us potential buyers deserve to know the truth, and are tired of all the bs.

Yeah... they're a tiny forum trying to compete - but that's not the way to do it.

s14280zx wrote:I just posted on their website and asked if that was true or not and told them to quit posting bs rumors, and start posting facts. All of us potential buyers deserve to know the truth, and are tired of all the bs.

Unfortunately, this is just the way rumour milling works. I hate how so many blogs do speculation to generate rumours that people will take as fact. Now, I will say, Nissan hasn't helped the situation in the past by back pedaling on press releases regarding the issue. I want to say it was sometime in the '06-'07 time frame that an official release from Nissan came out about a potential tier under the Z for a small RWD platform, but a year or so later, that was recanted in a press release and the smaller FM platform workhorse became the 370Z.

Somebody on classicz replied to my message saying it's true and posted this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... V505LKqU_4However, I'll believe it when I see it. All it shows is a sillouette of the next z, and talks about the decline in sales of the 370z compared to the 350z in '03, and how the $26k subuyotas outsold the z. Back in 03, you could get a well equipped z for under $30k, now they're pushing $35+. Kind of reminds me of the demise of the 300zx.

Yeah, that's a hell of a stretch. The article came out in October, and if there was going to be a new car in the lineup for 2014, it would have had to begin development in 2010-2011.

I'm sure they'll do some "special edition" Z for the anniversary, but given the disappointing "Anniversary Editions" of the past, I'm not optimistic it'll be anything special.

s14280zx wrote:Somebody on classicz replied to my message saying it's true and posted this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... V505LKqU_4However, I'll believe it when I see it. All it shows is a sillouette of the next z, and talks about the decline in sales of the 370z compared to the 350z in '03, and how the $26k subuyotas outsold the z. Back in 03, you could get a well equipped z for under $30k, now they're pushing $35+. Kind of reminds me of the demise of the 300zx.

There are many factors for this, but there is one glaring difference in why the 370 has been less successful in sales than the 350:

Economic conditions in 2003 > Economic conditions in 2009.

Also:
Strength of JPY over USD in 2003 < Strength of JPY over USD in 2009 (this not quite as much - has much more significance with the 2013 model price increase)

Both of those are why the 370 hasn't been such a hit. People that have the money for a car (and only one car) typically don't have the money to shell out on something that doesn't provide them with daily-driver attributes (such as cargo space and a backseat). In 2013, the Z is up against cars like the Genesis 3.8 (back seat, usable trunk), Mustang GT, Camaro SS, Challenger SRT, etc. If someone wants to buy a sports car, they'll likely choose something they can actually use for more than just a toy to drive all the time in the current economy.

For MY2013 (the only way they're comparing sales figures), the FR-S is outselling the Z because it is ~$25,000 vs. the Z's base cost of around $34,000 (fully loaded, you're looking at an FR-S/BRZ for ~$30k vs the Z at $45k) plus the FR-S is capable of 30+ MPG vs. the Z being good for 25 MPG on the highway. The FR-S is a sports car for the everyman in this economy.

The demise of the 300zx, IMHO, was due to a downturn in the sports car market overall due to the rise of the SUV. The cash cows in other sports cars like the Camaro and Mustang didn't dwindle right away, while cars like the Supra and RX-7 and 300ZX died off in the American market. I would say that a new dynamic exists in today's market - the need for more fuel efficiency. You're seeing cars like the Subarota twins sell like crazy because they provide both fun and efficiency. The cash cows like the Camaro and Mustang won't necessarily dwindle right away, but the niche cars (like the Z - it has always been more of a niche sports car) are going to take a hit. Unless there is a game changer.

Nissan knows this.

A $10k price increase over the '03 350z didn't help things with the 370z, and in '90 the 300zx started out $28k+or-, and was pushing $40k by '96. Atleast with the 370z you got some more hp for your $10g's. Maybe if I hit the lottery I can buy one of each.

Nissan needs to produce an Affordable RWD Sports Car (TM) because I can't get a Toyota 86 for less than the equivalent of $45,000 USD.

IBCoupe wrote:Nissan needs to produce an Affordable RWD Sports Car (TM)

Which brings us RIGHT back to the beginning of this thread.

Do you think Mr. Palmer's "watch this space" comment was tongue in cheek and is laughing at us while we "watch this space" with nothing happening just to see how long we'll do it?

We should all take our nissans down to the Tennessee plant fill the whole parking lot, and start picketting

s14280zx wrote:We should all take our nissans down to the Tennessee plant fill the whole parking lot, and start picketting

The next NICOfest?

The parkinglots are already full man. Besides, its not like they make any of these calls there. If you're going to TN, go to the corporate office in Franklin.

Well, consider that even the previous s chassis cars came to america castrated. No turbos, open diffs, etc.

Nissan doesn't take the cheap sports car market seriously.... when I'm pretty sure, without knowing the stats, that it should easily be the biggest market -- from people just getting into sports cars who would rather drop a bit more for a new one but one that still won't be too expensive to mess around with, to people who regularly ruin cars in competition and need replacements, to whatevers.

They concentrate on the high end (but not TOO high.... wouldn't want to set a bar they have trouble with next time, maybe?) sports car market with the Z, and supercar (but not TOO super, tuning it for like half the power that others get out of the stock setup) market with the GTR. But How much money can they make on beautiful things that nobody can buy?

As a twenty-something, I think a lot of people my age like cars, and fast cars. I think the juke looks like the lovechild of a sexy sports car, and a chevy astro, and I think it should have been put out of it's misery before it left the drawing board, how many offerings can you make that are not quite car, not quite minivan, not quite.... anything? Having a crossover is one thing, having every vehicle you make a crossover is another thing.

I think that what people like and want in cars is not determined by age, but by culture, lifestyle, being exposed to it (you know, if nissan doesn't make cool cars so they see cool nissan cars, they won't consider buying cool nissan cars) and most of all, money: america has changed with the recession, you hit the nail on the head about it taking longer for people to get on their feet (I'm in my bedroom at my parents house, waiting for the college semester to start, as I type this), and meanwhile the dollar is worth dramatically less and at the same time, earmings have stagnated for most people. The result is that rich people can buy GTR's, but the middle class needs to go into debt for a car, and it's not the "cars for the whole family" mindset that existed a decade ago, the money doesn't exist.

Nissan's (almost disrespectful, and snobby) misreading of the american market for a large number of years is a turn-off for me buying a new one, anyways.... IF I was in the position to buy a new car, it WOULD be a cheap, upgradable, reasonable looking sports car. Nissan doesn't have one. I don't have the money, and if I did I'd simply build a kickass s12-13-14, but if I bought new it would be a miata.

If nissan REALLY wanted to mix things up and build a car that would take the market by storm and sell like hotcakes, they would not build a 25k car. 250hp isn't THAT much compared to what's possible for, from their point of view, very little more than it takes to build a super economy 100hp engine. It's only a lot if you're modifying an existing engine to make that much MORE. Especially with modern engine management computers and understanding. They should build a 18k 250hp car. A basic 2 or 2+2 seat, classy but simple body with attetion paid to balance/handling, simplicity, repairability, interchangability(make it compatable with different nissan motors.... AND nissan's competitor's motors. nismo could even sell the kits) and upgradability. Basic US highway safety legalities taken care of, but easy to repair (for airbags and such) and not hidden behind a bunch of trim or concealed screws, and a super basic radio with an input jack.

Toyota does the yaris, and I forget what they're called but everyone has a model like it, there's a chevy one, etc. So, put that money into a less convoluted, more to the point design, a bit more steel, and a bit more motor, and build a super to the point sports car. Stock would still be more comfortable than an s13, but the target market would be enthusiasts, and importantly, people who just want a sporty car today, but will be the rabid brand-loyal enthusiasts of tomorrow. Even if they didn't make a dime on it right now, I think it would be an excellent move in the long run. Having a car that's a lot of fun to drive makes you want to... drive a car. And that's what nissan should want, if they're thinking about the future. (because as you said, most people don't NEED to drive very much anymore)

^ That.

Nissan needs more inspired management at the top.

Almost everyone at GM told Bob Lutz that relaunching the Camaro was a bad idea, that it would never sell and the car would be a huge flop because it was politically incorrect and would hurt the feelings of fragile-minded eco-tards in the media and the simpleton toaster enthusiasts at Consumer Reports. He more or less said "f*** you, I'm a car guy, and I'm in charge of product" and plowed through GM's mess of bureaucracies and risk-averse middle managers, forging ahead with the 2008 Malibu, 2008 CTS, 2006 GMT900 trucks, and new Camaro, all of which were very successful.

The bargain-priced fifth-generation Camaro now sells consistently above 80,000 units a year without significant rebates or incentives. The "follow the focus group" dingbats who 'blessed' us with the Pontiac Aztek were dead wrong.

Moral of the story, regarding affordable sports cars: If you build it, they will come.



At Nissan, you have people at the very top (I'm calling you out AGAIN, Carlos Ghosn, as I have been since 2003) who would rather devote engineering and design resources to the Murano Crosscabriolet than an affordable sports car for enthusiasts. The Crosscabrio has been a sales flop and an absolute disaster for Nissan's image.

nissangirl74 wrote:
Much of the Zs success was due to the fact that Nissan used many parts of the 510 on the Z. This cut production costs. The cost of a brand new Z was only $3,526 in comparison to the the Vette which was $5,200. The Jags, Porsches, and Mercedes were all more expensive as well. Finally, there was a sports car available to the blue collar working man.

This is a very important point, quoted here for emphasis.

The current Camaro shares its architecture with the Commodore/Omega, Park Avenue/Statesman/Caprice, and Ute. The next Camaro will likely be built on the smaller Alpha platform, currently underpinning the Cadillac ATS and expected to serve as the basis for almost all of GM's rear-drive passenger cars. Additionally, the Challenger uses the LX platform from the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. The Mustang's cost savings are partly because its platform was derived from DEW which underpins the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-type, and Jaguar XF.


A new sports car doesn't have to be built from the ground up with an entirely new platform or entirely new powertrain, especially if the goal is for it to be affordable. Flexibility is key.

Also, ^ Those.

Jesda wrote:

nissangirl74 wrote:
Much of the Zs success was due to the fact that Nissan used many parts of the 510 on the Z. This cut production costs. The cost of a brand new Z was only $3,526 in comparison to the the Vette which was $5,200. The Jags, Porsches, and Mercedes were all more expensive as well. Finally, there was a sports car available to the blue collar working man.

This is a very important point, quoted here for emphasis.

The current Camaro shares its architecture with the Commodore/Omega, Park Avenue/Statesman/Caprice, and Ute. The next Camaro will likely be built on the smaller Alpha platform, currently underpinning the Cadillac ATS and expected to serve as the basis for almost all of GM's rear-drive passenger cars. Additionally, the Challenger uses the LX platform from the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger. The Mustang's cost savings are partly because its platform was derived from DEW which underpins the Lincoln LS, Jaguar S-type, and Jaguar XF.


A new sports car doesn't have to be built from the ground up with an entirely new platform or entirely new powertrain, especially if the goal is for it to be affordable. Flexibility is key.

Very good points here. Which is why I think, if Nissan does anything with a RWD sports car, that we will see a variant of the Juke engine inside. It's a well balanced motor with respect to power production (makes more torque than the boxer does in the Subarota twins) and would be mod friendly as most factory turbo offerings on the market are (MS3, Focus ST, WRX, etc.).

Nissan should also take a look at what happened to Kodak and take that to heart. It's easy to play it safe when all you are worried about is your pension but even that comes back to bite you in the arse.