Mmmm, straight 6...

Hey mike, why not look into NASA ST2, ST1, or SU racing?? It seems to me like the series is on the rise, and might be worth looking into... considering how SCCA seems to be having issues right now.

AZhitman wrote:
Because we've been playing with KA motors for 10 years, and since the beginning of this thread, NO ONE has come forward with any solid evidence that a DOHC KA has exceeded 200whp.

Playing with twin cams is a bit more expensive, I think that's why.

With a twin cam you can easily adjust the phasing of the intake and exhaust lobes to match or exceed what is available from the single without the expense of a new custom casting (to achieve the same thing on a single cam) or loosing too much of the lobe on a regrind.

If you're opening the engine on the L24, Greg, I would be happy to send you a scraper at no charge.

mikegt3 wrote:For me, now I'll go and build a fresh 240hp L20B for my vintage 510 and go and have some fun beating up on all the old Porsche 911's and Alfa's !

Here's an offer. Build up your motor. Fit a scraper to it while doing so. I will send you one free. Dyno and tune it to your heart's content with the scraper off. In that dyno session drop the pan and add the scraper -- put the same [edit: used] oil back into the engine. Otherwise that'll be the guy that passes you in another 510. Close approximation of FF which is why scrapers are not allowed on the Zetec.

I have not started on patterns for the boxers but I have a couple engines. Have a GTV V6 here waiting as well.

mikegt3 wrote:BTW Pissing matches

Have fun beating up on those 911's and Alfa's...


Modified by Kevin Johnson at 7:28 AM 4/15/2007

Bigvinnie wrote:
It's a weird thought, the moment you said mitsubishi all I could think of was CRANK WALK......

I think that was just a design problem with the oil supply to the squirters on the 2nd gen. By the way, just designed and shipped the first order to a distributor of triple scraper systems for the 1st gen and earlier 4G63/4 series engines (G63B, G64B). The Porsche 928 setup uses a triple scraper system too. I like engines in general -- not a Nissan versus Mitsubishi thing.

Bigvinnie wrote:I'm also wondering if a HARMONIC dampener/balancer such as the ones ATI make would need to be used to counter act a lot of the vibration, harmonic disturbance, and stress that occurs at the higher RPM's (above 6500~8000RPM).

That would certainly be helpful. More money, though. Break enough parts testing and you're easily at the $20K that Scat was asking for.

BTW, anyone reading this thread with an FJ20 or 24, I have test patterns here that go along the mains -- happy to let you try one and send another adjusted one if needed. I sent one out earlier but heard nothing back.

Kevin Johnson wrote:
That would certainly be helpful. More money, though. Break enough parts testing and you're easily at the $20K that Scat was asking for.

Well here is my final input on the KA crank and I will end it on a positive note.

First off to the forum members that always want to increase the stroke for a 2.6-2.8 stroker kit...... You guy's are the worst at understanding that the KA was already stroked from Nissan beyond the limitations it was required for. Compared to the L and NAPSZ (not including the NAPS24). The 2.4 litre Blocks have a raised deck hiegth just to fit the rods, and pistons for it Rod to stroke ratio. Adding more stroke will only diminish cam duration and lift since dwell time only increases as the rod length increases as well. This is why I highly DON'T recommend those 2.6 litre IPP stroker kits, they are garbage. Nissan new exactly what they were doing implicating the engineering of the Lseries to KA. KA is the stroker of the L20b and in it's inherent design is only missing the one feature that made the FJ24's and L20b's such a bada$$ engine (it's fully counterweighed crank).Since we are on the topic of dwell time there needs to be an understanding that the longer the stroke the more torque output that can be produced. Torque output is right after the compression stroke to stroke 3, but in this process the long rod which takes less force to throw the crank is in limbo (dwell time) due to it's overall length. Within the dwell time is when the crank shaft deals with the most stress because the crank shaft itself is also dealing with 3 other cylinders 2 of which do not want to stop the upward piston momentum of the exhaust or compression stroke stroke 4 and stroke 2. The less dwell time from rod length the better the crank is at being harmonically balanced. This type of rotational and torsional stress can be counter acted by reinforcing the crank by fully counterweighting it, it will balance the harmonics for additional rev. Now looking at all characteristics of the FJ24, KA is a washed down version of the 8500RPM engine. which in it's rod stroke ratio there are almost the same characteristics except the rod was shortened and the piston was increased to 92mm to reduce dwell time. The KA24de head is far superior to the hemispherical dome shape of the FJ head. KA uses a pentroof design which has a much stronger and controlled flame front. As far as I know the FJ head came from the OS giken, Nissan design of the LZ engine. Which if you look up to date on heads that used the same bucket system it was the CA18det that used it first in mass production followed by the RB engines, and the KA24de.Now why put a racing high CFM flow head on the low rev stroker KA24? Very simple, Nissan just primed it for it's potential and initial use. If people new that all they needed was a fully counter weighed crank to accept the additional rev, in it's essence they would have an FJ24 at a fraction of the price. FJ24 non production engine cost $15,000~$18,000 with about 15 engines in existence to date. There were over 500,000 KA's produced for the S chassis alone, and a rebuild with an affordable fully counter weighed crank could all be produced for under $5000 dollars. Let me remind you the FJ was fully capable of 278HP out of the box. KA at this potential would be on the level of the Honda F20c!!!!!Thats the knowledge and information that people like SCAT, and NISMO don't want you to know. I can guarantee that every time I had a conversation with ED pink's office, Paul, and Rob the FJ came into conversation more than once and not brought about by me. The potential is noticed from all ends of the racing community and they essentially want to make top dollar on it...
Modified by Bigvinnie at 10:31 AM 4/15/2007

Hi Vinnie and Mike,

Vinnie, I am still unsure -- was Mike telling you that standard KA cranks can be used for racing at 7500 rpms all day long with the simple mod on the crank snout or was he saying that this was something that was done on fully counterweighted race cranks?

Important info for people.

Kevin Johnson wrote:Hi Vinnie and Mike,

Vinnie, I am still unsure -- was Mike telling you that standard KA cranks can be used for racing at 7500 rpms all day long with the simple mod on the crank snout or was he saying that this was something that was done on fully counterweighted race cranks?

Important info for people.

The key info is that says it is a stock modified KA crank shaft. From what I know and I haven't been in GT3 they are mostly stock OEM modified parts machined with precision. The machining itself would cost more in a mass production, then it would to just design a crank that could suffice for better harmonics, more HP and higher torque. It isn't fully calculated till harmonic balances are tested but a fully counter weighted crank by far will far surpass the range that the modified stock cranks can handle at the 7500RPM rev range. Fully counter weighed would possibly handle 7500~8500RPM but that is dependent on how well the design would be.

Mike states right here what he builds with..

mikegt3 wrote:
I'm not sure why you think the "twin cam" Ka is harder to get big HP from than the SOHC. The stadium trucks make 365hp with the twin cam. If I ever go back to SCCA GT3 racing,...It will be with a Nissan twin cam KA and TWM injection,Pink cylinder head,Rebello cams,carillo's,J&E's, ATI balancer, stock crank (drilled snout), MY hand made header and exhaust(4-2-1).

Mike

mikegt3 wrote:
BTW If you guys are going through the expense of having KA cranks custom made,.... Make sure you have the balancer bolt threads machined all the way to the first main journal. That's a mod we do for the 280hp race engines. If you don't, the cranks break off just behind the balancer. The extra long balancer bolt "holds" the crank snout to the rest of the crank and they don't break there any more. Remember,....We run these KA's at 7,500 rpm's all day long!

Thanks, Mike

mikegt3 wrote:
Kevin, I think you may have misunderstood the problem with stock KA cranks and prolonged 7,500 rpm use. There is NOT a problem with the balancer bolt or the bolt "bottoming" in the crank threads. The problem is that the KA harmonics break the crank snout off the crank between the back of the balancer and the number 1 main. The balancer is simply a "shock absorber". The crank sends a "harmonic" to the balancer and the balancer "smooths" out that "shock". The problem is that the KA sends some WICKED "harmonics" up to the balancer and it twists the crank snout OFF. You then have a 10 pound "frisby" running around the engine bay beating the crap out of everything in it's way!We use ATP balancers on the race engines. Stock balancers just won't cut it on the race engines. We then have the crank drilled and taped all the way to the first main. That way the bolt helps "hold" the crank shout to the rest of the crank. All I can say is that without this mod, we lost crank snouts on a regular basis. After the mod,....Never lost one! BTW,... If I send you a dyno sheet from one of my KA race engines that make 280Hp (Approx 240hp at the wheels) will you still eat that crank scraper?

Vinnie, you're right, Mike does mention that they are stock cranks. Just wanted to be sure. Well, for the people that want to run at 7500 that sure is a bargain.

Kevin Johnson wrote:Vinnie, you're right, Mike does mention that they are stock cranks. Just wanted to be sure. Well, for the people that want to run at 7500 that sure is a bargain.

You forgot though he also has to run a $700 ATI dampener just to smooth out the harmonics. He also has to machine the threads to the first journal of the snout. It's not cheap.

It would cost the same as producing a new crank that could run on the existing stock crank pulley and getting better harmonics with a broader and more powerful rev range.

There still a huge difference between the 2 cranks.

Kevin Johnson wrote:If you're opening the engine on the L24, Greg, I would be happy to send you a scraper at no charge.

Very generous (and kind) of you Kevin. I may just take you up on it.

AZhitman wrote:
Very generous (and kind) of you Kevin. I may just take you up on it.

One of the shops I deal with that races Hondas has an owner that is building up a 280z. He said I should be able to borrow a spare 240 block and that means I might be able to develop some new products for it as well. Might be able to borrow a diesel crank as well.

Ever since I picked up this car, everyone's bugging me to swap in an L28... I'd prefer to keep it original, maybe squeeze some extra pep out of this motor.

AZhitman wrote:Ever since I picked up this car, everyone's bugging me to swap in an L28... I'd prefer to keep it original, maybe squeeze some extra pep out of this motor.

If I was one of your good friends I would bug you to swap an RB25det NEO....

LOL - You are, and I would.

Actually, I have the 72 Z to do, and then it's on to restoring this trio of Roadsters... and you KNOW one of them's gonna be a Frankenstein!

AZhitman wrote:
Because we've been playing with KA motors for 10 years, and since the beginning of this thread, NO ONE has come forward with any solid evidence that a DOHC KA has exceeded 200whp.

The only reference I could find to a Nissan stadium truck was the 1985 Electramotive truck campaigned (very successfully) by Mears. No DOHC KA in that truck. The '88 Desert Runner Edition commemorates that awesome ride.

On a side note, I'm doing a resto on an L24 right now... Loving the sound of a vintage Nissan straight six!

Mike, do you ever run across any U20's?

I don't know of any U series engines for sale if that's what your looking for, but I do have 2 customer cars with U20 engines and 1 with a U16. Good little engines, but they can't hold a candle to the L series anything! The L series stuff is VERY big in my area of the country. Bob Sharp racing WAS about 10 miles from my shop and Bob still lives one street up the road from me. There are a LOT of guys that worked for Sharp over the years still in the area and in some way or another, making a living with Datsun (as I like to call it) stuff.

When I talk about the cranks I use in the GT3 KA's,.... BONE STOCK except for the snout mod and Cryo treated!

You guys should really keep an eye on what's being used in SCCA GT3 as far as KA stuff goes. The 3 and 4 valve stuff is unbeatable right now at the Runoffs. The track in Kansas where the Runoffs are at is a TORQUE race track! Remember that in SCCA carbureted KA's are restricted to 34mm "chokes" and FI is restricted to one (1) 33mm inlet restrictor. Word on the street is that 4 valve injected KA's are in the 300hp range! Remember that's breathing through one (1) 33mm HOLE !!!!!!!!!

As far as NASA goes,..... If SCCA doesn't get their s**t together pretty soon, NASA is going to get BIG in a hurry! Right here in the northeast, NASA is almost non existant. GT3 is also just about dead. I had nobody to race with any more around here and after setting new lap records at LimeRock, Pocono and Watkins Glen last year, I decided to sell one HELL of a good racecar to a guy in El Salvador before the car was worth NOTHING. He's going to use the car to beat up on GT1 and GT2 cars there on their 2 mile 19 TURN racetrack. If he can't get it done with my car, he said he may fly me down there to do it for him. For my sake, I hope he can do it himself. I've heard of people going to El Salvador and NEVER coming home!

Kevin, I will take you up on your scraper offer. Here's the deal,...If the quality and fit is good, I will have a good friend of mine contact you and have them put up on his web site. My friend may just sell more L series new and used parts than ANYBODY else in the country. You don't need to sell me on the benifits of a crank scraper. I have one on EVERY race engine that I build. Making them by hand SUCKS and if yours are good I will use them. I also have a good friend (Ex Sharp) that buinds ONLY L series race and street engines. I'm sure he'll be a customer also. Let me know.

I need a little help from you guys. Somebody walk me through how to post pictures on this site. If you do, I will post a picture of a 72 240Z that I'm testing next week at LimeRock. It has one of only two ever imported 6cyl FIA cylinder heads on it and dynoed at 340+ hp (sorry, can't give the REAL number) The car was origionaly built by Parnelli Jones Racing and after a 5 year resto, It's going to hit the track again next Tuesday!

Thanks, Mike

If the picture is on your computer, you need to upload it somewhere online. I recomend Photobucket.com

Once the photo's are online, you need to wrap the photo's URL in the following tags.

[ img ] photo url here [ /img] -- Naturaly remove the spaces in the tags i gave above.

Hey, Vinnie -- I thought there were 150 FJ24 motors built... is wikipedia wrong on this one?

mikegt3 wrote:Kevin, I will take you up on your scraper offer. Here's the deal,...If the quality and fit is good, I will have a good friend of mine contact you and have them put up on his web site. My friend may just sell more L series new and used parts than ANYBODY else in the country. You don't need to sell me on the benifits of a crank scraper. I have one on EVERY race engine that I build. Making them by hand SUCKS and if yours are good I will use them. I also have a good friend (Ex Sharp) that buinds ONLY L series race and street engines. I'm sure he'll be a customer also. Let me know.

Hi Mike,

Just sent you an email with details.

I'm not sure but I may be the only street driven KA with an aftermarket balancer on this forum. I used a Fisher Concepts unit (found out about it from SCC).I've had lots of issues with my rebuild, but I can tell you that my engine feels much smoother in the higher rpms than it used to with the stock damper- this might be because the old one was worn out, or because this is a quality design, but I did run them both in the same day, and there was a difference. My only problems with it were Fisher's customer service and lack of timing marks.I'm still working on getting some issues dealt with and minor tuning done, but it should be dynoed sometime in May, and I will post results on this thread.

Ajax - I'd be very interested in more info on that unit - At the boost levels I'm putting to this gal, she needs all the protection she can get!

Mike, I can't WAIT to see the FIA-powered Z. I'd be interested to meet your friend who does the L-series builds as well.

Is there any chance of you making it over to Carlisle for NICOfest next month?

BTW, NASA is MUCH bigger here than SCCA, and it's growing exponentially.

http://www.fisherconcepts.net/They do mostly domestics and Harley's, but they do have a unit for the KA. I must stress that their customer service is horrible. They had problems with their CNC machine when I ordered mine, and it took forever, but trying to get any sort of communication from them was next to impossible. But the craftsmanship is good. Maybe as the owner of a shop you'll have more pull and won't have the same problems that I ran into. Good luck!

Do you recall roughly what you spent?

Edited because post was not needed.
Modified by Shift_Kouki at 10:02 PM 5/5/2007

AZhitman wrote:Do you recall roughly what you spent?

$400

Shift_Kouki wrote:
Hey, Vinnie -- I thought there were 150 FJ24 motors built... is wikipedia wrong on this one?

No, wikipedia is rite there were over 200 built they even stated the numbers from the RHD productions and the LHD productions for the 240RS rally cars. From what I understand I was looking to buy one that was out in the United Kingdom the asking price for the engine was $15,000. It was to rich for my blood so to speak. What I was told from the builder is that there are only 15 or less left in existence. It would be a great engine and an easy swap to drop into the 240sx chassis. Unlike the GT3 engines which only last so many hours, the FJ24 was very reliable.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_FJ_engine

Ajax wrote:I'm not sure but I may be the only street driven KA with an aftermarket balancer on this forum. I used a Fisher Concepts unit (found out about it from SCC).I've had lots of issues with my rebuild, but I can tell you that my engine feels much smoother in the higher rpms than it used to with the stock damper- this might be because the old one was worn out, or because this is a quality design, but I did run them both in the same day, and there was a difference. My only problems with it were Fisher's customer service and lack of timing marks.I'm still working on getting some issues dealt with and minor tuning done, but it should be dynoed sometime in May, and I will post results on this thread.

You wouldn't happen to have a dyno to show the gains using the dampener compared to the typical stock HP drop the KA makes after 5000~5500RPM would you.I have several that show that power drops to early, maybe the balancer can smooth out the power band a bit compared to these dyno's...BTW all these dyno's used aluminum pulleys accept fr the DCsports test, and the AEM AMS test.

Even DC sports shows the same typical early HP drop at 5500RPMThe AEM EMS test

Sr20det @ 7PSI VS. Bolt on KA24de (the SR has the smallest drop out in power after 5500RPM)


Modified by Bigvinnie at 4:03 PM 4/16/2007

Unfortunately, I've not had any dynos done yet.A back to back comparison with the damper vs stock is probably not going to happen unless I get a shop to give me a free day on a dyno- the damper is also underdrive and requires swapping out 2 of the belts.Honestly, I don't think there is too much hp difference, it just feels much smoother along the powerband.

Mike, I have the templates here for the L20B (I made stock and knife-edged). I just need a shipping address. Also wanted to be sure that my emails didn't go into a spam filter -- fairly common nowadays.

Kevin

Edit: Heard from Mike that the big storms that passed through made the river flood his shop.

mikegt3 wrote:
Kevin, I will take you up on your scraper offer. Here's the deal,...If the quality and fit is good, I will have a good friend of mine contact you and have them put up on his web site. My friend may just sell more L series new and used parts than ANYBODY else in the country. You don't need to sell me on the benifits of a crank scraper. I have one on EVERY race engine that I build. Making them by hand SUCKS and if yours are good I will use them. I also have a good friend (Ex Sharp) that buinds ONLY L series race and street engines. I'm sure he'll be a customer also. Let me know.

Thanks, Mike

Modified by Kevin Johnson at 12:22 PM 4/22/2007

Good News!! After speaking with Chris at AMS this is what will be in the works.

Chris@AMS wrote: I can have them made

BilletFull counterweightIndividual rod oiling

If I get 5 people it will be about $1500/crank

It's not everything I wanted done to the crank, but for $1500 no complaints here...


Modified by Bigvinnie at 12:02 PM 4/22/2007

Hmm, out of my budget bro.

Not to detract from your findings, but I was looking around over the weekend and saw that crower will eventually be offering stroker kits on the KA. Has anyone ever stroked the KA or seen that kit in action? I *think* it uses a fully counterweighted crank as well.

Shift_Kouki wrote:Hmm, out of my budget bro.

Not to detract from your findings, but I was looking around over the weekend and saw that crower will eventually be offering stroker kits on the KA. Has anyone ever stroked the KA or seen that kit in action? I *think* it uses a fully counterweighted crank as well.

Well not that I really care if you can afford it and all, but a stroker kit won't be any cheaper. I did my work and found a company that would make the crank for $1500.

IPPS crap stroker kit cost $2200 thats without the tax......

Crower only makes a stroker kit for the sr20de/t's not the KA's. Crower will make any custom crank shaft if you ask for it.http://www.rocketindustries.co....html
Modified by Bigvinnie at 9:45 PM 4/22/2007