What do you guys want??

[TopStreet240]

When everything boils down if anyone is going to make turbo kits and try to market them, wouldn't you want them to be something worth spending money on. These things are going on your cars, so you can say what you want to in defence. I just thought you'd like to have these points brought up BEFORE dropping a large amount of money. In the end its a matter of do or don't. If you do decide to go turbo, IS cheap really worth it.

If I'm going to get dogged for EXPECTING bigger and better, who is really losing out in the end.

[TopStreet240]

BTW:

Never said it was reliable... but it is efficient.

NO running a dry-sump system is efficent. Running your car low on oil is dangerous!

[SingleCamSam]

Quote »we'd be complaining about our GTRs destroying our Holinger sequentials on the drive to your concubines house.[/quote]



Quote »I am interested in the market of cars where people are willing to pay for QUALITY. [/quote]

Log manifolds work fine for any realistic street (or track for that matter) hp setup. A $20 DSM BOV works even better than the top dollar aftermarket pieces, and i suspect the bosch would perform similarly. An AIC is a big step up from an RRFPR, and people have been using those to make big, reliable power for years. And about the Mitsu turbo's...they work fine for the DSM guys.

The point is, if you make people think they need stand alone engine management, a $600 intercooler, and a $200 BOV to make 250-300whp, you're not selling a turbo kit, you're selling a lie.

[fiznat]

^^^

:Werd

I still have issues with the fuel delivery though...

[aleph1]

Before we start calling things cheap, inefficient, and unreliable....maybe we should wait for his kit to materialize and see all the test data. I am having a hard time buying into the whole extra injector deal, but Im willing to wait to see how it all works in the end.

TS240: It sounds like you have been burned in the past on related issue, as you are very adamant about your case. Just keep an open mind. Im sure WD wouldnt sell stuff he deems crappy. Hes been a great help to the people at NICO, knows a hell of a lot more than I, and has TONS of turbo experience. I doubt he would ruin his name by making shiesty turbo kits.

[WDRacing]

What exactly are you trying to get out of making a turbo kit that has only been half assed more by the Honda boys. You are trying to convince an entire web full of enthusiasts that you have the perfect setup for the needs people have. The way that I see it, if you are going to spend any time or effort on a turbo kit, you should really try and get SOME quality into it. A $17 Saab BOV and a DAMN LOG MANIFOLD!! I don't know who is trying to convince you that AIC's are cool but WTF? (not to say that AIC's are not CHEAP alternatives for MAP SENSORED cars).

I don't want to even see this crap *** Skyline, if that's what you were running. When you have a Skyline, if that is the route that you take on that specific application, then there was a serious lack of thought put into it. Did you also put Dual Mitsu 14B's on it to? I would be HORRIBLY scared to see that thing on the road...

You screwed up the most important part about a JANK turbo kit. If you are going to put a turbo on a car that does nothing else than give you bragging rights with you friends, you should raise the price $100 and include an actual BOV on there. Then people with these kits can at least REV on people and try to scare them out of racing, because these total efficancy lacking kits are going to have a hard time putting anything out.

Sorry to be harsh, but if any one ever wants to race and tells me that they are running one of your kits, it's going to be hard for me not to laugh.

Damn TS240, where's the love bro?? Did I say somthing personally offensive to you? I'm not even sure where to start here. The BOV I use is a Bosch. Its perfect for low boost kits, which can be changed to whatever the customer wants at the time of the order, I simply change the flange for them. But BOV's that vent to return are actually what your supposed to use on motors that use a MAF system.

Additional injection, I'm not sure I should even attempt to explain this. It works...If the customer doesn't like the idea, bam, I subtract the injectors and controller and he or she just uses whatever system they want to.

Lets talk about my SCARY Skyline...lol. If your reffering to the RB20DET powered, alcohol injected beast that ran 11's. Then your talking about my car. The untuned POS must be sombody elses.

As far as saying I have the best kit, never said it. I've emailed alot of guys who have asked questions, never have I pressured anyone into buying from me, I don't even sell them yet. I'm not even doing it for the money, I'm already in the USAF. I just happen to know what I'm doing and there are alot of people who want an affordable kit. Greddy makes good kit, so does Nsport or Fmax. I don't know anyone who uses your kit, or I might recommend your as well. I'm just an option people have.

The only thing I can say for sure, and everyone on this website can quote me on this, I will have a faster 240 then you TS240. All the while using my crappy log style manifold and my crappy fuel management. In fact, I plan on having the fastest KA powered 240 in the states. So your not even on my list of competition.

I just want you to know, I hold no ill will towards you. If you disagree with my methods then thats your opinion. I'll seeya at the track.

Brian Falla, WDRacing

[WDRacing]

For the record, I went to your site. I like your mani, not equal length, but it looks nice. Its hard to tell in the pictures, is your wastegate pipe run down and forward? If so why did you run it that way? To many clearence issues?

WD

[hannibal]

I dont know WD or Top Street, but sounds like yall have few issues to work out.I see it like this: If I had $4-5000 to buy a kit, I would go with NSport, Greddy, or XS. But I don't have that kinda money so I considered building my own. Then I hear WD has is developing a kit at a price below what the big guys charge. Of course, I'm interested.Do you think an individual can develop a kit and sell it for the same price as the big companies? Why would someone buy Top Street's kit for $4000 when I can get Nsport or XS kit from a big company with a big reputation for the same price.I haven't heard WD advertise his kit as a "top of the line" kit for half the price. If he's selling them for say $2500, he's gotta use a different, "cheaper" set up than a name brand kit.

Bottom line for me is how the kit performs. If I get more for my money with WD's kit, then forget Nsport and XS.

TopStreet, dont get upset at WD for producing a less expensive kit with similar performance. It sounds like you fail to understand the marketing aspect of developing a kit. You come across as bitter cause WD just priced you off the map!!

Jay

[aleph1]

Greddys kit is under 3000 dollars...just so you know. That kit is gonna be WDs main competition I believe. It comes with bigger injectors and emanage as well, but no FMIC...

[hannibal]

I dont even know what comes in Top Street's kit (or WD's for that matter). It seems like Top Street is more concerned with producing a turbo kit that rivals the quality of the name brand kits. Even if his kit makes the same amount power as the big guys, he has to charge less. No one should be willing to pay the same price for a name brand kit and a home made kit.

Now WD seems to be focused on producing a budget kit that can approach the performance of the name brand kits. This is more appealing to me personally. If I can buy a reliable setup that matches the power of a Greddy's kit for less money, I'm there!!

If I wanted a high quality kit from a company that spends thousands of dollars (and 5 years) on R&D, I would buy Greddy's. In my mind there is no market for a home made kit that costs the same as Greddy's, no matter how great the quality.

I mean no disrespect Top Street, but I feel that WD's kit better meets my goals.

[aleph1]

I think there is a misunderstanding afoot...does TS240 even make a kit for sale??? I didnt think he did. And it doesnt look like he is interested, he was just giving his opinion on WDs super alpha prototype vaporware of a kit =)

[tapdeznutz]

im really looking forward to seeing WD's finished product and dyno stats and the like. as a consumer, im always looking for the best VALUE for my money., as all of us im sure. so WD kutos for u wanting to help us peoples experience the good life of turboing. the world is a F_ed up place but with peopole like WD wanting to just help jsut because, makes its that much better.

i luv u man(wipes a tear)

jay

ps guys can luv each other too u know

[WDRacing]

For the record...This will be the last thread I even talk about my turbo kit in. Since I don't even own a 240 and am still in Japan till December, there doesn't seem much point to it.

Greddys kit is very nice. An excellent choice, only needs a FMIC and your well on your way to bigger boost.

As far as quality is concerned, or quality of parts being sold. The parts are all the same guys. Its like shoes at the mall, you want to look cool and wear Nikes, you pay extra. You want to have the same pair of nice shoes, you buy Adidas. Same with turbo kits. Nsport and XS use a RRFPR as fuel management. I'm failing to see the quality.

Its like this, I came on this site simply looking for some info on the internal weaknesses of the KA motor. I started a thread or 2 in the turbo section since this is where the majority of the high hp motors will be. I met some excellent people while I was visiting. So I started to frequent the site. I happen to have a decent knowledge base when it comes to forced induction, so I was able to answer a few questions. After reading quite a few threads, I discovered a large need for info on how to build your own turbo kit without being gouged by everyone who was currently selling one. After asnswering some 100 threads on that topic, I looked into the pricing if I were to build one myself. The price seemed to be fairly cheap. So I figured I'd go ahead and give it a shot. Who am I?? I'm just some crazy USAF helo crew chief thats loves fast cars. I didn't even like imports till I got to Japan. Hell, I never really undertstood forced induction till then either. But after some 20 magazines a month and a few really good books over the last 6 years, I picked up some pretty good knowledge.

I'm not looking to retire from this tiny little bussiness. If it were that easy everyone would do it. I just like the thought of sitting in my garage having a few beers and fixing up a buddy's car. If I can sell a few kits here and there, great. If not, well, I know I'll have one hell of fun car to drive around.

WD

[creophus]

I'm very interested to see what develops with this kit. I'm a noob when it comes to turbo charging so this is actually the first I'm hearing of an additional injector setup. The concept sounds logical though.

[aleph1]

I'm not looking to retire from this tiny little bussiness. If it were that easy everyone would do it. I just like the thought of sitting in my garage having a few beers and fixing up a buddy's car. If I can sell a few kits here and there, great. If not, well, I know I'll have one hell of fun car to drive around.

WD

Wow sounds what I would like to do....

[TopStreet240]

For The Record,I am not trying to give anyone crap. I am not trying to sell anything right now. I havent Linked my web site or told pricing for anything. I simply disagree with some of the systems and products that are being talked about.

WD- Im not looking to bash you in any way. I was being mostly sarcastic about the skyline.

All **** talking aside, Why do you want to use an AIC. I know that alot of kits use them. Most of these kit are on MAP sensored cars that have no way of calculating air flow. I custom made a 3" AFM housing for my 240 an used 550cc's. I had less than 10% of correction to make before we had the thing running cherry Air fuel ratios.I cant really see an AIC being less expensive than that.Log manifold- Ok I personally dont agree with it. They have been proven time and again to be out flown by tubular. BUT I can understand The cost difference there. If the customer is not going to be opposed to it then fine.Again, I'm sorry for coming across the way that I did. I just think that there are some better ways of doing things.Jake

[Nathan]

Its like shoes at the mall, you want to look cool and wear Nikes, you pay extra. You want to have the same pair of nice shoes, you buy Adidas. WD

Nikes hurt the arch of my foot, Adidas dont Sorry, I just had to be a smartass their for a sec.

[WDRacing]

There will always be a better kit or better options available. Lets take HKS GT series turbo's, great turbo if you want to spend $1500 for one. Is it better then a Yahoo special, yes it is. Custom tubular mani's are great, if you can use the correct diameter runners to maintain exhaust velocity then your golden. If you don't then your actually going to lose low end torque.

The main reason behind me going with subinjectors is this. You get to retain all of your stock parts. No need to change out the fuel rail, or bye expensive side feeds, or convert to a bigger better MAF and ECU rewrite. The hacked MAF is an awsome option in my eyes. But I know what I'm doing, I can't say for sure that it will respond to higher boost levels. It has been proven to work at low boost, but I'm looking for my kits to be completely user upgradeable.

The system is run off of a map sensor, which will increase fuel flow in proportion to boost levels. This means you keep the engine running just like NA when off boost. Once you get past the base kit(10psi) you upgrade to a 2 injector setup. The injectors only spray just enough fuel into the trac to keep the fuel mix where it needs to be, it won't just dump fuel into the intake. So there is very little risk of fuel puddling, since the only time the injectors will be at a higher duty cycle is when your on a good deal of boost and the fuel will be very atomized entering the intake. RX7's have used this type of setup for years. I'm talking 2 1000cc subinjectors installed in the IC piping with no distribution problems.

N2O kits have also been using a very similer design for years. On basically every motor that heas been made. Fuel and N20 get injected right into the pipe prior to the throttle body, again, no distribution problems.

No its not the cheapest way to add fuel, but it is very dependable, upgradeable and easy to tune. You don't need ecu rewrites every time you want to add boost. You don't need expensive dyno sessions either. You just need to increase the fuel amount a slight bit with the turn of a knob, then add 1-2 psi of boost. A wide band or a knock meter will make things easier and safer. Both are extremely affordable nowadays.

This is a very good starter kit for early tuners. Fairly cheap and easy to tune. Is it the best on the market, hell no. But it is certainly not the worst.

When I get my shop completely up and running, I might switch over to tubular style mani's. I just don't have the time right now.

I hope this helps explain what I'm really trying to do here. I'm simply gonna run an honest customer service oriented tuning shop. Hopefully I can become friends with every customer. Car enthusiasts are just generally cool people to hang out with.

WD

[aleph1]

Good point with the dry n20...I didnt relate AIC to that...

I will definitely wait for your kits, they are already on the top of my list as far as turbo kits for my S13 go, since Im looking to buy around Jan-Feb. I believe in you =P

[TopStreet240]

The Only thing that you have to remember, is that when you are dealing with N2O, you are dealing with much higher pressures at the jet. The fuel has a much easier time atomizing. The Rotory boys are also dealing with an entirely different fuel setup. Most of the high horse rotorys that Ive put together will run any where from 720cc to 1600cc SECONDARY injectors. I have seen very few guys running an AIC setup.For LOW boost, I have seen alot of people running AIC setups.For 5-8psi or so its ok. I have personaly seen several cars that will go to 10psi or more and blow the fuel past the piston closest to the throttle body on side feed intake manifolds.I also dont think that the KA24e at least, use side feed injectors. I know my 89 uses top feed.I just think that there can be a better,cost effective fueling system.

[JPRempe]

The Only thing that you have to remember, is that when you are dealing with N2O, you are dealing with much higher pressures at the jet. The fuel has a much easier time atomizing. The Rotory boys are also dealing with an entirely different fuel setup. Most of the high horse rotorys that Ive put together will run any where from 720cc to 1600cc SECONDARY injectors. I have seen very few guys running an AIC setup.For LOW boost, I have seen alot of people running AIC setups.For 5-8psi or so its ok. I have personaly seen several cars that will go to 10psi or more and blow the fuel past the piston closest to the throttle body on side feed intake manifolds.I also dont think that the KA24e at least, use side feed injectors. I know my 89 uses top feed.I just think that there can be a better,cost effective fueling system.

Well, if you have something in mind, then state your opinion. Just saying that you "Think that there can be a better, cost effective fueling system" without providing any technical info is rather pointless, and very useless to the constructive nature of this thread.

[toki]

Quote »I also dont think that the KA24e at least, use side feed injectors. I know my 89 uses top feed.I just think that there can be a better,cost effective fueling system.[/quote]yeah most people change that when they upgrade injectors. it's part of that whole "reliability and performance" thing you keep talking about.

[tapdeznutz]

just a thought but what about water injection to cool the intake charge. is getting cooler air about the same as or at least equivalent to more fuel. i hope im making sense.

jay

[WDRacing]

I'll have water injection and alcohol injection kits available on there own. I prefer alcohol to water, but everyone has there own idea's and water is free.

[WDRacing]

The Only thing that you have to remember, is that when you are dealing with N2O, you are dealing with much higher pressures at the jet. The fuel has a much easier time atomizing. The Rotory boys are also dealing with an entirely different fuel setup. Most of the high horse rotorys that Ive put together will run any where from 720cc to 1600cc SECONDARY injectors. I have seen very few guys running an AIC setup.For LOW boost, I have seen alot of people running AIC setups.For 5-8psi or so its ok. I have personaly seen several cars that will go to 10psi or more and blow the fuel past the piston closest to the throttle body on side feed intake manifolds.I also dont think that the KA24e at least, use side feed injectors. I know my 89 uses top feed.I just think that there can be a better,cost effective fueling system.

The E model does use top feeds, but the more abundant DE uses sdie feeds. which need to swapped out when you add more boost unless you use another method such as mine.

I'm not saying how much it costs me to build my AIC and purchase all the parts. But if I were to buy brand new MAF's, cut them up and buy 4 new injectors. The cost isn't very close with, me on the winning end. Not to mention that I can actually tune my kit for more boost. You would have to get either a new MAF or some other type of fuel management. I just turn a dial.

In the end, I'm possitive I'm right. I've already done this to cars. It works great and you can run tons of boost. Everyone can just sit back and wait for the dyno runs.

WD

[lbrowne]

Would there be a cheap kit or parts for a low low boost application? like 5-7 psi? (if thats doable)

My bro wants to get more power out of the car and I'm starting research turboing the KA rather than doing the SR swap...

[cosmo]

^^^^^all you had to do was look back through other posts

The parts will be for sale seperatly.My base kit is meant for people who don't want to do any internal mods.

WD

[doh240sx]

I think you can generate alot of interest if you can build a reliable AND cheap (oxymoron?) turbo kit for our car and I for one would be interested, so keep us posted WD...

It's always nice to have alternatives to what we currently have available as a bolt on kit (which isn't that many out there)

[lbrowne]

^^^^^all you had to do was look back through other posts

GAH!!!! one sec while I smack my head off the desk. :oface

I actually READ that the other day in this very thread. Talk about a brainfart..... :thinker

[aaronsnocker1]

Will your base kit work on a ka24e? I have an '89 and am very intersested in it.