Water/meth injection

[carsonsowers]

I have always been curious about it. I know the muscle car guys have been using it for ages but I haven't ever really seen it talked about for anything else. Pros? Cons? Anything? I think I remember the autocross slicktop guy talking about it a long time ago.

[BigTDogg (MA)]

I have always been curious about it. I know the muscle car guys have been using it for ages but I haven't ever really seen it talked about for anything else. Pros? Cons? Anything? I think I remember the autocross slicktop guy talking about it a long time ago.

No real cons to it, unless your injection system gets clogged or you run out of meth/water and still run your high boost. Then you could grenade your engine. The Snow kit has a safety add-on to address that.

It was/is really popular in rally cars and other turbocharged/supercharged applications, because it lets you run higher boost.

[vulcanrush]

i think there is a con to it, and why i probably won't run one (other than the fact that i'm not smart enough to install it).

the system won't turn off, it would screw up your engine.

if the specialty-z guys won't recommend it.

[BigTDogg (MA)]

i think there is a con to it, and why i probably won't run one (other than the fact that i'm not smart enough to install it).

the system won't turn off, it would screw up your engine.

if the specialty-z guys won't recommend it.

What? Were those even sentences?

The system is boost activated, it uses a pressure sensor to determine when to spray. The only way it would not turn off is if the motor got a direct DC signal. In that case, your engine would just stumble and die. It would not cause a hydrolock condition, but rather there would not be enough oxygen to combust the intake charge, so the spark would blow out.

[evildky]

a propperly fucntioning kit has zero negetive effects! lowers intake temps, increases the effective octane of the mix and makes more power

[vulcanrush]

sorry for my bad grammar, i apologize, i tend to reply in terse phrases.

what i meant to say is that, yes, there is a con.

if the system malfunctions and keeps spraying water, etc., it could do harm to your engine.

and if the specialty-z guys won't recommend it, that's good enough for me since they know a lot more than i do.

are you running it on your own car, bigtdogg?

motoiq.com is trying out a new aem water-methanol injection system right now, and they've had many reservations about running one, worth a read.

this is what greg over at specialty-z says "I do not recommend water injection. I have seen too many failures over the years that kill motors and eat parts. Pumps that stay on because a relay failed or something caused the pump to keep running and killed the engine from hydrolock. All the parts in the vacuum system corrode and die like boost controller stepper motors do to the constant fog in the lines from left over un-burned water ect....."

[BigTDogg (MA)]

are you running it on your own car, bigtdogg?

I am, I have a SMC alky system. It's a great system, though I have yet to tune for it. I currently have it coming on at 9psi and shutting off at 18psi. I only have the boost set to 14psi.

I have to relocate the reservoir to my rear windshield washer tank, so I can fit my Selin Dual MAF setup. Right now, I just check the tank every couple of weeks. The controller has a level indicator, and it's easy to test if it's spraying.

I would go so far to say it's essential for Cali guys to run it if they want to run high boost. That could also be said for anyone who is limited to a maximum 91 octane crapgas.

Just saw your edit. The filters I do agree with, they need to be changed more often than without a alky system, but I think the benefits far out weigh the $10 every 15k miles for new vac filters. I'm not discounting Greg's first hand experience, but IMO it sounds like bad installs if anything. And I will honestly say I'm shocked if he's seen a hydrolocked motor as a result of a pump failing on. That could be the result of improperly sized nozzles as well.

[evildky]

an inproperly operating wastegate can kill you motor, so can an inprperly operating oil pump, improperly sealed injector O-rings, heck the O rings are a common point of failure and the fuel gets pumped in! if you aren't comfortable wiht them don't run them but they have been aroudn for years and a properly installed kit uning quality parts is far safer than the stock injector o rings

[legion]

So essentially water/meth injection does the same thing as race fuel, where as it raises the octane allowing you to run more boost? I'm guessing the injection is just more accessible therefore making it cheaper so you can use it more often, but are there any other advantages of water/meth injection or race fuel?

[evildky]

no, race fuel just raises the octane, meth cools the intake charge and raises octane by adding high octane fuel (methane) and more air (water) to the mox, think of it as a cold liquid supercharger

[vulcanrush]

i don't feel comfortable running a water-methanol injection system, which is why i wouldn't recommend it to somebody else.

pretty good article over at motoiq about water-methanol injection systems.

it's true that these systems have been around for a while, but to say there are no cons is incorrect, imo...there are issues such as driveability issues.

do you run one of these systems, evildky?

[BigTDogg (MA)]

there are issues such as driveability issues.

OK, good article, and some neat info. But let's be clear. He had driveablity issues on a system using a windshield washer pump. That produces about 1/5 the pressure required to atomize water. Snow, Aquamist and SMC systems use 90-100 psi pumps to create the required mist. I'm not saying Mike's not a smart guy, but he was admittedly tinkering. The Evo that blew up? Failed hobbs switch. Sh_t breaks all the time, and this is just another thing that can go wrong, true. But like evildky said, there are many other things that could grenade your engine before a water injection system.

I will append my cons statement. FOR A PROPERLY WORKING SYSTEM, there are minimal cons (replacing vacuum filters more often). If you run a straight alcohol fluid through the system, yes, your rubber hoses and seals will wear out faster. Most people I know use windshield washer fluid, which is roughly 80/20 distilled water to methanol.

Greg sent me an email stating similar cons that you listed previously. I respect and value his experience, analysis and opinions. I'm just sharing my personal experience and analysis.

[evildky]

it's true that these systems have been around for a while, but to say there are no cons is incorrect, imo...there are issues such as driveability issues.

do you run one of these systems, evildky?

nope not yet, I kicked it aroud and just never got to it, I do intend to add it to my S30 when it goes back together

they have no more downside than a stock turbo system, or a stock oiling system, everythign has the potential to fail, like the fuel O rings that tend to be an issue on so many cars, a good meth kit has satey measures in place to help prevent this, the stock fuel pump will just fill the cylinder with fuel

[Oh Em Zee]

i think the poor results you guys keep hearing are from homebrew meth\water injection.
everyone wants more power at low cost, and it's been around for a while.
heck even in a magazine i was skimming through a few months ago, they had step by step instructions, how to build your own homebrew meth\water injection kit. you KNOW there are no safety regards in that kit...
i'm sure a majority of the failures are from people following poorly made kits, or even homebrew, out of magazines like that.

[vulcanrush]

i don't think that's the case, that they're using home-brewed stuff.

specialty-z is a pretty high-end shop, and even they don't recommend it.

there are many turbo's, intercoolers, etc. to choose from.

yet only a handful of water-methanol injection systems to choose from (snow, aquamist, and aem?), i don't think that's a coincidence.

the reliability and usability just isn't there yet, again just my opinion.

and bigtdogg, dumb question, but why would you run a water-methanol injection system on such low boost?

14 psi, if tuned correctly, isn't anything crazy, right? better sparkplugs, intercoolers, radiator, and i would think you're fine?

[evildky]

you should hit the SEZ )now called the DNI shootout) sometime, you cna see lots of meth injection in action

fwiw I don't thinkg ultimate z has much interest in extreme performance stuff, I spoke with them first jeez, 10 years ago!? and they were recomengding all stock parts at that time

[BigTDogg (MA)]

you should hit the SEZ )now called the DNI shootout) sometime, you cna see lots of meth injection in action

fwiw I don't thinkg ultimate z has much interest in extreme performance stuff, I spoke with them first jeez, 10 years ago!? and they were recomengding all stock parts at that time

SpecialtyZ =/= UltimateZ

Greg knows his stuff, and I've been emailing him over the past few days and he actually may be convincing me to delete my WI. Only because I found 100 octane at the pump near me. Otherwise I'd keep it and deal with the water issues.

[vulcanrush]

you should hit the SEZ )now called the DNI shootout) sometime, you cna see lots of meth injection in action

fwiw I don't thinkg ultimate z has much interest in extreme performance stuff, I spoke with them first jeez, 10 years ago!? and they were recomengding all stock parts at that time

specialty-z is all about extreme performance, they're a pretty high-end shop.

if i'm not mistaken, they have the fastest z.

their turbo pack is pretty close to 1,000-hp.

they've definitely upgraded over the past 10 years.

[evildky]

doah! I read specialty but was thinking ultimate, sorry I have no first hand experience with specialty z, I'm not sure if they are a young company or simply never messed with the older cars, it's kinda odd that the Z32 is the smallest production valume z car yeat birthed the mst specialty suppliers/builders, I guess because they were a lot more intimidating to the home mechanic

[stebo0728]

I dont know much about these systems, but I do know in my industry we use methanol to remove water from hydrostatically tested pressure vessels. would this characteristic hold true here, does the methanol infact chemically alter the water as it does when contacting normally unpressurized water? Just curious, I have been wondering before reading this what advantages methanol could play in an engine, perhaps keeping a small amount circulating with the oil to help prevent hydrolocking, but I dont know that may not even work.