VG30DE N/A-TT build question

[Poody]

Hey everybody, my name is Cody, and I'm new to the forums, but not to performance builds. I currently own a 2003 GTI with tons of work that I have done personally, running a 55mm precision turbo @ 450whp. I'm ready to move on to a new platform at this point, and after leaning toward an SC300 for a while now (who doesnt want to build a big single turbo 2jz?), the sexy lines of the Z have captured my attention again. Plus I would rather start with a more sport oriented car for my build than a luxury cruiser.

I've always loved to look of the 90s Z cars, and have off and on dreamed of owning one since I was able to drive. I'm getting ready to sell my DD/project VW GTI and also a motorcycle that I restored over the past year. I should end up with 10-12k to buy myself a reliable DD and I want to get a Z32 as my new project vehicle. I have big plans as far as the build goes (CLEAN, ~600hp with broad powerband, and reliability) and I just have a few questions for any gurus out there that may be able to answer them and set me off in the right direction.

Now on to the questions... FIrst off, I plan on updating, overhauling, or refreshing just about every system on the car. I am not buying a car to bring home and start driving right away. For that reason, I'm leaning toward buying a cheaper N/A rather than the TT model. From what I have read, the 5 speed in either trim will be enough to hold the power I want to make, and the r200v diff should be tough for me to break. do I need to worry about axles, or driveshaft on the na car breaking with that much power?

Second, will anything in the DE block set me back in terms of making that much power? I plan to replace all gaskets, bearings, oil/water pump, fresh hone (overbore if needed), forged 9:1 pistons, eagle h beams, main/ head studs, as well as a basic valve job and deck the block/head. Will be tuned for both pump gas and e85, hence the compromise on static compression. I know many engine builders see oil squirters as just added insurance, not an absolute necessity, should I be concerned with the lack of those in the DE block, or the crank or stock valvetrain? Trying not to over do anything here and waste money.

Other than the above, is there any other reason that I need to be weary of buying an NA car as opposed to the TT? Its hard to justify spending $8-10k on a bone stock TT, over the $2-3k on an NA when I will be rebuilding the engine and swapping turbos, intercoolers, exhaust manifolds etc anyways.

[Poody]

Just realized this probably should have been posted in the technical section. Mods please move if you can?

[Bigred*]

I looked into this alot years ago when I first started shopping for a Z, the main reason being money, I can get a running n/a around here for $1000-2000 and, though I may get flamed for this, when you go to insure it, assuming your a cheap a** like me that only does liability, it would be insured as a non turbo, because that's what the vin says, and that's a lot cheaper (I only thought it! I am currently insured for a twin turbo car lol) but there are things you get with the turbo you don't get in the n/a, like 4 wheel steering, I've never driven an n/a so I don't know how it feels, if it "feels" or drives much different, but i do kind of like having the bragging rights of saying my car has 4 wheel steering, its unique, though some people remove it for a few reasons.

Also on the turbo you already have all the intercooler piping worked in, which if your going for a big build your probably going to replace, but like in my situation where I built my block, and am now currently saving up for the turbos/injectors/tune it's nice to have all that plumbing there so I can enjoy it for the next year or so.

5 spd transmission should be fine, but on the diff, if your planning on pushing that much power I'd say you'd want a twin turbo diff, not because it couldn't handle the power but because of the gearing, you put that much power behind an n/a diff and your going to be spinning your tires everywhere.

Now as far as the oil squirter, i dont know if the n/a block is drilled for them or not. At one point I almost bough someone's project who was doing this conversion, and he said they were already drilled they just need to be unplugged and install the squirters..but i have no idea if thats true, so I'm probably going to research it. But i think it's excellent insurance if only that, not 3 days ago I was driving down the freeway and lost all my coolant out the bottom, and i had no idea cuz my gauge never indicated things were heating up (I knew I had a leak so I was watching it closely) so I thought I fixed the leak until my engine came to a sputtering stop and had to be towed home.. Ive since got things resolved (I hope) and its driving great and not showing any serious problems, those little oil squirter might have been the little bit extra that kept things just cool enough to not totally grenade my engine. Which would have sucked after a $2000 build and i had only just hot 500 miles

Plus, if you get an n/a, it doesn't say twin turbo on the wing

Ha, anyways welcome to the forum!! Bunch of great guys here all appreciating an awesome car

[schwar74]

Why not just find a tt with a blown motor, then rebuild? That's what I'm doing.
I now have a tt Ecu, wiring harness, ICs and piping, TT fuel pump, oil cooler, bigger brakes and wheels without the hassle of trying to buy them all separately and then fit them into the n/a. I paid $1300 for mine in not horrible cosmetic shape.

[Poody]

I guess the reason I'm not too worried about most of the stuff the TT has is because I'm replacing so many of the parts anyways. I suppose it would help to post the planned list of parts to give you all a better idea of where Im coming from

300zx build


Turbo Kit-
z1 GTX2867r kit- 3690

Intercooler-
Core/piping kit- 355
BOVs- 100

Exhaust-
Fabrication- 400
Manifold- 125
Dual slant cut 3" tips- 130
Vibrant 1102 muffler- 205
4 v band flanges- 100
2 flex portions- 35


Fuel-
10ft braided line- 40
Fittings- 100
FPR- 135
300 Degree rail- 450
Fuel Injectors- 700
Stainless hard line- n/a

Tuning-
MS3x 4 bar diy kit- 671 or MS3pro- 1200
GM 4 bar map- 36 with PRO only
GM open element IAT- 20
Glowshift analog wideband- 175
Glowshift boost gauge- 45
WHP Flex fuel sensor- 155


Brakes-
4x caliper rebuild Kits- 45
30mm Aluminum front calipers- 300
z1 Upgraded front/rear rotors/lines- 750

Body-
J Type/Jspec front bumper- 415
Body Filler- 50
Plastidip- 250
Headlights-
Ballasts/bulbs-80
Projectors- 40
Wheels-
Varrstoen es1- 1000
Powdercoat?- 250
Bridgestone Potenza s-04 Pole position- 900

Engine-
EGR block off- 20
Motor Mounts- 160
Head/main studs- 275
Engine rebuild kit- 2003
Radiator- 225
Fans- 40

Transmission-
FS5R30A Rebuild kit- 265
Clutch kit- 500



Thats what I'm looking at so far. I know that I will end up spending another few thousand in unforseen costs but i feel this is a good representation of my build plan. So with the above in mind, is it still worth it?

Also, if I see a blown engine TT model for $1300 I will jump on it haha =P

[ObjectsInMirror]

Well the NA block already has oil squirters, so no worries there, as a matter of fact, all of the aftermarket pistons that I have ever used required using the NA oil squirters (they are shorter) in place of the longer factory TT ones.

As far as the block itself, its identical. Completely. The oil filter bypass valves are pressed into the block on NA's and they are inside the oil filter tree on TT's. But the block itself is exactly the same. So is the crankshaft. So are the rods.

The transmission is internally the same, you can grind out the inside of the bell housing and shim the starter out to use a TT flywheel/clutch.

The radiator mount loops on the core support are welded closer together on the NA then on the TT, you can either use a conversion bracket or cut them off and re-weld them.

The A/C lines are different on the NA then on the TT but most of them work (with persuasion). The only one I had to change was the discharge hose/tube from the compressor to the condenser. The condenser must also be changed. The lower mounting holes are already in the lower core support for the narrower condenser, you just have to pop the insulators out of the old holes and put them in the new ones.

A lot of people say they have trouble with the hard line for the P/S return. I didn't, but it did take minor persuasion.

Starter is the same, timing belt equipment is the same, water pump is the same, thermostat is the same, upper and lower intake manifolds are the same (with the exception of the TT upper have a "twin turbo" placard), valve covers are the same, and fitment wise the cylinder heads are the same. The exhaust valves on TT heads are made of inconel steel though and TT heads have larger/better flowing ports.

The entire rear subframe is different between NA and TT. The TT, as mentioned, has rear steering, which proves to be unreliable to most people. The rear gear ratio for TT's is around 3.69ish and for NA's is 4.09ish. So yes, with the rear from an NA, 1st and 2nd gear go pretty quickly. That being said I haven't completely destroyed a NA rear diff or axles yet so its not going to die with the power. All this aside, no rear steering definitely makes the car a bit lighter. Couple that with the 4.09 rear gears, even a completely factory swap accelerates faster then a native TT car.

Motor mounts are the same, motor mount brackets are the same. You can use a NA wiring harness so long as you don't mind the ECU not having the ability to put the car into safety boost mode. So if you're intending on running an aftermarket boost controller or aftermarket engine management, then it's not a problem.

The NA condenser fan works still.

Some people say that the fuel pump controller from the NA won't work. Its a 2 speed as opposed to the TT's 3 speed. Mine works fine. 8V on low speed and B+ on high just like it did with the NA ECU. I have a TT controller that I plugged in to see if it would work as well and it did (on all three speeds) so I'm not sure what people have found with them not working. Mine's been running on a NA controller for years.

You will have to change the fuel pump to a TT one. The NA fuel pump will not keep up with fuel demands under boost.

Other than that, I can't think of anything that wasn't pretty much completely bolt up. Not a hard swap at all.

[NolimitZ32]

Moved the thread for ya.

The above is pretty comprehensive, the only correction I have is that the oil squirters on the NA and TT are the same length they just point at slightly different places, the NA squirters are used with all aftermarket pistons however.
I personally prefer the 4.09s in my swapped car but that is entirely up to you, I would definitely either start with a TT block or source complete TT heads unless you plan on replacing the valves. For a complete nerdout on the Z please check out the "Everything you need to know about your Z32" sticky, and if you have any other specific questions please feel free to ask. GL on your search.

[Poody]

Thank you for the wealth of info, that's exactly what I was looking for. There's a TT engine locally for $300 with no turbos and a spin bearing that I may pick up. If nothing else, I can use the heads on that, but I may just build that engine and swap it in when I'm done instead of having the car down for a month or more while I take care of the build.

I'm assuming most of the minor fitment issues are things that I will figure out as I go through the build process. I'm planning on 2-3 years before it's where I want it. Now I just gotta sit back and wait for my VW to sell so I can really get started on this. Be on the lookout for a build thread everybody!