Vapor Lock???

1980-1986 Datsun 720 forums. All 720-specific topics and discussion can be found here.
sweet720
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:28 pm

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Hey guys. been havin some trouble with the old 720. Recently the engine will cut out while acceclerating in traffic. I had initially thought that the truck was out of gas and put a full tank in. Had no trouble for a day then the engine is cutting out again. Fuel filter and pump were both replaced about two months ago. Pump initializes when key goes to on position and you can feel it working when the truck is running.
My grandfather (who is much more knowledgeable about this stuff) informed me it might be vapor lock. He thought this due to the fact that I live in coastal texas and the heat and moisture might be affecting things now that its summer.
I have had the truck poop out on me both in midday and at nite, both after running for awhile with frequent stops, and after not running at all for a few hours. As annoying as it would be to have to replace the pump again (the filter by the way has flow, shined a flashlight and your can see fuel moving freely) I do realize that the parts can fail shortly after buying them.
The ever so helpful guys at O'reillys and Autozone (some sarcasm implied) have never heard of vapor lock, though there are dozens of sites that discuss the issue.
My question is, does it sound like vapor lock, the fuel pump, or something else? If it sounds like vapor lock, what can I do to resolve the issue. I was told it is not likely clogged fuel lines. Plz help cuz the engine dying in the middle of rush hour is a rather difficult situation one wouldnt want to happen once much less four times in a matter of days. :gapteeth:


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PEZi
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Get a fuel additive to remove moisture. If its vapor lock, that should cure it. On the other end of things, the fuel relays are known for crapping out in these. I had the same problem a while back.... mine was the fuel relay.

sweet720
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Sounds cool. Happened to buy some at the store just in case. Will do that today. Had heard about insulating the lines at the engine and near the exhaust. Should I try that as well? Gotta guy coming out to check the fuel pressure as well next week. Thanks for the reply! :woot:

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fastboatman29212
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When it cuts off, can you immediately crank it up again? Does the carb show fuel if you look at the glass? Do you have an issue with a loose ground wire?

If you have ruled out carburetor/fuel pressure issues the here is great link to read regarding the fuel pump relay. I would recommend reading it thoroughly before tackling any fuel relay repair/replacement.

Let us know what you find to be the cause of the problem.

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Datsun-and- ... t-Tell-You

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MetalFab
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Sounds pretty familiar.. could be a malfunctioning choke/wire? Is yours electric? My rig used to drive down the road just fine, then stall out when I went to give it gas, took 20 seconds of cranking with the throttle wide open to get it to fire up, (I've cranked the battery dead a few times until I realized it fired up fairly fast if I floored the pedal.. then feathered it to life after it started) Sometimes it would stall out at lights after running for an hour. Good way to find out is to just tie the choke plate open and if it fixes your problem then look into replacing it as it's likely wearing out. If not then disregard =)

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lambohaha
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Car: `85 720 2wd std cab
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Could be Vapor lock, have had that happen in my other vehicle that used I to play with and I fixed that with a cool can. But I also had another issue with that same vehicle that had the same characteristics as what you gave and it turned to be the pick-up coil. Not sure if the 720`s have such a thing but it could even be one of the 2 coils getting too hot and not firing any more. Just a thought.

sweet720
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Ok heres where we're at. Pretty sure problem is not occuring from the tank to the carb. Leading me more on vapor lock. Actually getting a chance to work on it tomorrow. While searching around underneath I've discovered I have an oil leak. Oil was very low once checked. When we turned the truck over we looked down the throttle body and theres fuel inside. What ground wire would I be looking for?
When the truck shuts off it will not start up immediately but usually after about ten minutes or so, with the hood open. It will die out eventually again, wash, rinse repeat.
On another note, could the low oil level/pressure cause the engine to run hotter and as a result cause the vapor lock? Radiator is full, fluid color is good.
All for now!

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fastboatman29212
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If you have low oil pressure, it would be fairly constant, thus, not likely to cause an intermittent problem such as this.

Just to make sure we are all speaking the same language - take a few minutes and read this wikipedia article about vapor lock. At least the 1st 2 paragraphs.

EDIT: OK, so I can't make a link to the Wikipedia article. Fuzznuggets! So here is the text from the first part of that article in RED. Better yet, go to wikipedia.com and type in "Vapor Lock" in the search and read the whole article.

Vapor lock is a problem that mostly affects gasoline-fueled internal combustion engines.

It occurs when the liquid fuel changes state from liquid to gas while still in the fuel delivery system. This disrupts the operation of the fuel pump, causing loss of feed pressure to the carburetor or fuel injection system, resulting in transient loss of power or complete stalling. Restarting the engine from this state may be difficult. The fuel can vaporise due to being heated by the engine, by the local climate or due to a lower boiling point at high altitude. In regions where higher volatility fuels are used during the winter to improve the starting of the engine, the use of "winter" fuels during the summer can cause vapor lock to occur more readily.

Vapor lock was far more common in older gasoline fuel systems incorporating a low-pressure mechanical fuel pump driven by the engine, located in the engine compartment and feeding a carburetor. Such pumps were typically located higher than the fuel tank, were directly heated by the engine and fed fuel directly to the float bowl inside the carburetor. Fuel was drawn under negative pressure from the feed line, increasing the risk of a vapor lock developing between the tank and pump. A vapor lock being drawn into the fuel pump could disrupt the fuel pressure long enough for the float chamber in the carburetor to partially or completely drain, causing fuel starvation in the engine. Even temporary disruption of fuel supply into the float chamber is not ideal; most carburetors are designed to run at a fixed level of fuel in the float bowl and reducing the level will reduce the fuel to air mixture delivered to the engine.

Carburetor units may not effectively deal with fuel vapor being delivered to the float chamber. Most designs incorporate a pressure balance duct linking the top of the float bowl with either the intake to the carburetor or the outside air. Even if the pump can handle vapor locks effectively, fuel vapor entering the float bowl has to be vented. If this is done via the intake system, the mixture is, in-effect, enriched, creating a mixture control and pollution issue. If it is done by venting to the outside, the result is direct hydrocarbon pollution and an effective loss of fuel efficiency and possibly a fuel odor problem. For this reason, some fuel delivery systems allow fuel vapor to be returned to the fuel tank to be condensed back to the liquid phase, or using an active carbon filled cannister where fuel vapor is absorbed. This is usually implemented by removing fuel vapor from the fuel line near the engine rather than from the float bowl. Such a system may also divert excess fuel pressure from the pump back to the tank.


Vapor lock is intermittent and unpredictable but always related to hot engine/weather. In essence, fuel gets vaporized somewhere in the fuel line BEFORE reaching the carb and the carb cannot effectively deliver a vapor. You have a positive pressure fuel pump which helps reduce the chance of forming vapor in the fuel line before it reaches the carb. If you are forming vapor in the fuel line BEFORE it reaches the carb, then the glass at the front of the carb should show little or no fuel at the time the motor cuts off. If the carb bowl vent has been capped off, it would be easy enough to uncap it just to see if it helps. I kinda doubt it, but maybe you are developing vapor inside the carb bowl, (it has no way out except though the carb vent - see photo). You don't need a line to the charcoal cannister, just make sure it's not capped off.

It will take some effort, but next time it cuts off, before you pump the pedal and crank the motor, go look at the carb glass to see if you have fuel in the bowl. If so, have a friend crank the motor while you look down the throat of the carb to see if she's squirting fuel. IMHO, if you have fuel in the bowl and you can see fuel going down the throat of the carb RIGHT AFTER it shuts off, then it is some other problem, NOT vapor lock.

Image
Last edited by fastboatman29212 on Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:15 am, edited 3 times in total.

sweet720
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The only thing that confuses me is that the first two times it happened was at nite. Thought perhaps it was bad battery or alternator. The other time that it stopped was in busy city traffic at the hottest time of they day. But the day it broke down in traffic, I had been driving it all morning. My only reason for thinking it is vapor lock is that it is just that intermittent, and the temp has been getting extreme around here. The engine turns over off the bat when sitting over nite, so thought perhaps we ruled out any problems between the tank and the carb.
We are going to remove the air filter housing to today to take a better look at the throttle and carb, and also to address the oil leak.

Would love to try driving it to see if it fails and check for fuel, but the area I live in this is not an easy task. Ill have to go from there to see what I can do. Thanks for your help up to here, gunna do some dismantling and exploration this morning. Will report what is found.

Thanks for the diagram as well!

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fastboatman29212
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I can't fix the link, so I edited my previous post.

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PEZi
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Seriously sounds like the fuel pump relay.

sweet720
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:28 pm

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Ok. heres where were at. My friend and I worked on it a bit and found a few problems. First, there is an oil leak coming from around some sort of sensor. if your under the truck and looking up at the oil filter there is a plug with wires behind it. Dont know what this is but it seems to be the source of the leak

My second issue with it now is that there is some sort of junction to the left of the hinge of the hood. the junction has one tube going into the left and two wires and a tube coming out the right. the tube coming out of the right has no place to go. found it just hanging there.

Lastly, we cleaned the spark plugs up just for the hell of it, and now the engine doesnt seem to be getting as much fire, and hesitates. Bad plugs? But why only after we clean them (and most likely they didnt go back to their original place).

We will be fixing the fuel pump relay today, the problem is that with it running so crappy now, cant even take it out for a real test drive to find out if its the relay (once replaced) or the originally thought vapor lock.

plz help. Seems we broke more than we fixed lol.

sweet720
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Thought I would also add the carb vent line is capped. it doesnt have the out tube as in the posted diagram. Now my turn signals arent working. :wtf2: Plz give me the strength to fix this truck lol.

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fastboatman29212
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Here's a pic of a carb I got at the junkyard for spare parts. There is a cap on the carb bowl vent tube. Prior owner must have broken off the vent tube because - it looks broken off! LOL! Anyway, I believe the carb bowl needs to breathe, so it should have some sort of vent. Uncap your vent tube. You don't need to run a line to the charcoal cannister if you don't want too, but excess vapor in the carb bowl is probably not what you want. It may have nothing to do with the current problem, but it should be vented.

Image

sweet720
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Yea. Mine is capped just like that one. Guy at the auto shop suggested that I change the pickup coil. This was also recommended in an earlier post. As I said, engine seems to have low fire so Im gunna change the plugs in the morning (didnt have proper wrench to do today). I did however change one of the coils (was unaware there was two, second one will be changed as well tomorrow). The engine already seems to have more power despite not having the new plugs. Does this sound like perhaps it was the problem all along?

I will have a more clear report back. Going to change other coil and plugs and then go for a test drive. Hoping I cant get the engine to stall cuz itll mean i fixed it hopefully, but if it does then im going to go ahead and change the relay and wash rinse repeat. If its still messing up after that then its gotta be the carb. New filter, pump, coils, plugs, and relay, if it still stalls, then ill go to the carb. Hoping not having to that lol.

thank you so much for your help guys.

making another post as well on another issue.

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PEZi
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Its fine if its capped.... mine has always been capped with no issue

sweet720
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Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:28 pm

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Mystery solved. Ignition coil went bad. Only changed one, changing the other this week just fer grins. Driving for two days, multiple conditions, not one stall. Thank you guys for your help!

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N-Dually
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fastboatman29212 wrote:When it cuts off, can you immediately crank it up again? Does the carb show fuel if you look at the glass? Do you have an issue with a loose ground wire?

If you have ruled out carburetor/fuel pressure issues the here is great link to read regarding the fuel pump relay. I would recommend reading it thoroughly before tackling any fuel relay repair/replacement.

Let us know what you find to be the cause of the problem.

http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Datsun-and- ... t-Tell-You
Saved me. Thank you!

synack7350
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since it has the subject already here I'll drop some info on vapor lock. Vapor lock occurs in non self priming pumps. basically its when air gets into the feed line of the pump. Pump which relies on many other physical phenomenon other than just vacuum (siphon action) can not pick up fluid do to the less dense air in the pick up line. Again this only occurs in non-self priming pumps where the liquid to be picked up is below pump level. Generally not an issue in automotive pumps. Cavitation is another phenomenon associated with pumps in which low pressure below the blades of the impeller actually changes the boiling point (point of vaporization) of the liquid causing gas to be created. low pressure ='s low boiling point----- high pressure ='s high boiling point. gas has a very low temperature of vaporization. Its why you keep your feed lines and fuel away from your motor. Not so that it wont catch on fire but because you don't want it to vaporize prior to entering the carb.


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