outcastcat wrote: Anyone heard bout the new ecotec? Accept for connecting rods (i think that was the part), which are good to 260 HP, the engine is STOCK good to 500+. THats not THAT bad for a 4 banger econobox.

and the GM is buying the WRX, rebadging and selling it itself!

outcastcat wrote:Well if Toyota would just offer heavy duty trucks. no ones matched americans there. My dads dodge ram cummins is a great thing, though its not immune to mechanical problems (american companies can take a great engine, and put not so great stuff around it). Anyone heard bout the new ecotec? Accept for connecting rods (i think that was the part), which are good to 260 HP, the engine is STOCK good to 500+. THats not THAT bad for a 4 banger econobox.

No, the vette doesnt look like a RX-8. Are you on drugs?

When it comes to power, the americans have the japanese spanked. Theres little better than the 350Z when it comes to performance, and Honda/Toyota have very little in the way of serious performance. Nothing on the Vette (which is a bargain), the viper (a supercar bargain), the new mustang is sweet, and the GM is buying the WRX, rebadging and selling it itself! THe RX-8 is nothing special cause Ford owns that. o well. well all be saved someday.

Japanese quality is way better though. Undoubtadly. ITs why my first car, will be japanese. Cause when its used, it may as well be a relaibable POS rather than a really s*** POS.

outcastcat wrote:ok. you people need to learn a little car history. The mustang is not, i repeat NOT a muscle car.

Say it with me now: the mustang is not a muscle car.

We've got 3 classifications mentioned (2 actually, but now i mention the REAL one).Muscle car, pony car , sports car (which is not an overall heading from the last 2, but entirely different).

the last generation might have been a muscle car, with a big engine and midsiz, but the new one is a return to old. So what was the old one?

It was a pony car. A pony car is based on a regular car (ok the new one isnt), it has a small engine, and is somewhat sporty/fun. It doesnt run a big engine. The largest engine offered in the normal stang of old was a 289 ci V-8. Most had a 6-cyl. You may think thats huge, but in a time when the best race engines were a 440, 454, 426 hemi, 429 boss, 427, 428, it was small. A "small" block Gm was 350 or 392. The smallest one in chyslers cars was a 318 who sold a 383 to. (i could be wrong, but u get the idea).

It was targetted at youth. tHe new stang has cut size and price (youth oriented rather than the last stangs middle aged man) and has reintroduced a smaller engine. The camaro has always been a direct compeitor in this youth oriented market.

Now that we know wat a pony car is, we can debate things on the idea of what makes a good ponycar (cheap, sport, and cool). It is not super good. It doesnt have a load of power, and doesnt smoke everything on the street. Its cheap fun and looks cool. If u wanted a fast car in the 60s, u moved up to a mod on the stang (which was a lot of money), a Dodge Charge, a Chevelle (which is a larger car, and a muscle car) or something similar. You didnt buy a pony car (except maybe a 396 camaro, but then again Mustangs outsold camaros so that tells u wat a mustang should be.)

note: mustang mods: cause of their excessive engines, Boss's and MAch 1's are usually considered muscle cars (the Boss's is a NASCAR 429 engine, same with the 72 Mach 1). The shelby, being a complete package, shares more in common with a sports car.

Does it require RWD (if not, the SRT-4 would be one, or even a STi or EVO VIII. if they made a 240 again (with a slightly better engine) would it count?)

So thats wat a stang is. Its what a camaro should be. A camaro should not make 350 HP. Its too damn expensive. It shouldnt be the size of a GTO (which would make it a MUSCLE car.)

TERM: Muscle car: Mid to fullsize (vs. pony cars compact to mid, which the old stang was in 60s terms) car, cheap, with a big a** engine stuffed in. Note: a charger with a 426 race motor (which was actively sold to the public in everything from the fullsize charger to COMPACT dart) would be a muscle car). Muscle cars do require big engines (and a compact dart with a 440 would prob be a muscle car, though the name isnt sinonymous with muscle that car will haul a**), and the new GTO should make good power (300+). Muscle cars, unlike sports cars, are not required to brake or handle in any good means, nor look sleek or fast. By contrast, the 60s era Vette was sleek and fast (by 60s standards).

note: the original GTO was a rebadged midsize car with a big engine. the GTO defined and made muscle car

Thats what a camaro should and should not be. Does muscle car exist today? Yes. GTO. and the new charger if it exists, or the Magnum fits.

note: the vette is a sports car, not a muscle car.

Thanks for your lesson on American motor history. Cause old cars kick a** too.

note: Do pony cars have to be American, because both STi and EVO have been suggested to be the new pony car enemies.

The new cav has an import fighting advantage. Its half a liter bigger than civic. That might be it. Argue on the rest of this, that wasnt important.

Modified by outcastcat at 9:39 PM 4/18/2005

Modified by outcastcat at 9:41 PM 4/18/2005

Modified by outcastcat at 9:44 PM 4/18/2005

Jesda wrote:Pony cars have horse names. I've yet to see a breed of horse named STi and EVO.

outcastcat wrote:ok. you people need to learn a little car history. The mustang is not, i repeat NOT a muscle car.

Say it with me now: the mustang is not a muscle car.

We've got 3 classifications mentioned (2 actually, but now i mention the REAL one).Muscle car, pony car , sports car (which is not an overall heading from the last 2, but entirely different).

the last generation might have been a muscle car, with a big engine and midsiz, but the new one is a return to old. So what was the old one?

It was a pony car. A pony car is based on a regular car (ok the new one isnt), it has a small engine, and is somewhat sporty/fun. It doesnt run a big engine. The largest engine offered in the normal stang of old was a 289 ci V-8. Most had a 6-cyl. You may think thats huge, but in a time when the best race engines were a 440, 454, 426 hemi, 429 boss, 427, 428, it was small. A "small" block Gm was 350 or 392. The smallest one in chyslers cars was a 318 who sold a 383 to. (i could be wrong, but u get the idea).

It was targetted at youth. tHe new stang has cut size and price (youth oriented rather than the last stangs middle aged man) and has reintroduced a smaller engine. The camaro has always been a direct compeitor in this youth oriented market.

Now that we know wat a pony car is, we can debate things on the idea of what makes a good ponycar (cheap, sport, and cool). It is not super good. It doesnt have a load of power, and doesnt smoke everything on the street. Its cheap fun and looks cool. If u wanted a fast car in the 60s, u moved up to a mod on the stang (which was a lot of money), a Dodge Charge, a Chevelle (which is a larger car, and a muscle car) or something similar. You didnt buy a pony car (except maybe a 396 camaro, but then again Mustangs outsold camaros so that tells u wat a mustang should be.)

note: mustang mods: cause of their excessive engines, Boss's and MAch 1's are usually considered muscle cars (the Boss's is a NASCAR 429 engine, same with the 72 Mach 1). The shelby, being a complete package, shares more in common with a sports car.

Does it require RWD (if not, the SRT-4 would be one, or even a STi or EVO VIII. if they made a 240 again (with a slightly better engine) would it count?)

So thats wat a stang is. Its what a camaro should be. A camaro should not make 350 HP. Its too damn expensive. It shouldnt be the size of a GTO (which would make it a MUSCLE car.)

TERM: Muscle car: Mid to fullsize (vs. pony cars compact to mid, which the old stang was in 60s terms) car, cheap, with a big a** engine stuffed in. Note: a charger with a 426 race motor (which was actively sold to the public in everything from the fullsize charger to COMPACT dart) would be a muscle car). Muscle cars do require big engines (and a compact dart with a 440 would prob be a muscle car, though the name isnt sinonymous with muscle that car will haul a**), and the new GTO should make good power (300+). Muscle cars, unlike sports cars, are not required to brake or handle in any good means, nor look sleek or fast. By contrast, the 60s era Vette was sleek and fast (by 60s standards).

note: the original GTO was a rebadged midsize car with a big engine. the GTO defined and made muscle car

Thats what a camaro should and should not be. Does muscle car exist today? Yes. GTO. and the new charger if it exists, or the Magnum fits.

note: the vette is a sports car, not a muscle car.

Thanks for your lesson on American motor history. Cause old cars kick a** too.

note: Do pony cars have to be American, because both STi and EVO have been suggested to be the new pony car enemies.

The new cav has an import fighting advantage. Its half a liter bigger than civic. That might be it. Argue on the rest of this, that wasnt important.

outcastcat wrote:note: the vette is a sports car, not a muscle car.

Jesda wrote:Pony cars have horse names. I've yet to see a breed of horse named STi and EVO.

Mr1der wrote:
except the Camaro, Firebird, Challenger, and Barracuda

metalsyth wrote:
I for one do not believe this comment. You mean to tell me that a Corvette Stingray with a 427 multiport fuel injected is not a muscle car?